34 Felony Counts Guilty

Author: ebuc

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@ADreamOfLiberty
The Trial by Franz Kafka is a surreal novel about Josef K., a bank official who is unexpectedly arrested on his 30th birthday by mysterious agents. The nature of his crime is never revealed. Though not detained, Josef must navigate a bewildering and oppressive judicial system. His initial hearing is chaotic, held in a decrepit building, with officials providing no clarity. Seeking to understand and defend himself, Josef consults several figures, including a lawyer named Huld, his enigmatic nurse Leni, and a court painter, Titorelli. Each encounter only deepens the sense of absurdity and hopelessness. The legal process becomes increasingly invasive and incomprehensible. Eventually, Josef is taken by two warders to a quarry, where he is executed, ending his life with a sense of helpless resignation. The novel explores themes of corrupt bureaucracy, manufactured guilt, and the impossibility of justice in an indifferent world.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It doesn't, but it doesn't exclude them from personal expenses either which means they are in the overlap which means nobody can convict anybody of anything without getting a change in policy from the FEC
There is no literature anywhere that supports this interpretation. Nothing about the law or FEC page says if something is not singled out to be excluded then it’s fair game.

A contribution is anything of value given, loaned or advanced to influence a federal election.

Note how it does not say “a contribution occurs only if it’s specified below”.

“For other expenses not mentioned on this page, the Commission will determine, on a case-by-case basis through the advisory opinion process, whether the expense is one that would exist irrespective of the candidate's campaign or duties as a federal officeholder and would be considered a personal use expense.

Again, does not say “if it’s not listed here then the expense is whatever the candidate says”

Bla bla sophistry
It doesn’t take sophistry to recognize that the negation of “this debate will be over” is “this debate will not be over”. As in, we will continue the conversation. Not “this debate will be over and I win”.

Must have missed that, what was your error? Cause it seemed like you said "Well my interpretation is absolutely correct unless specifically contradicted by an example given by the FEC"
I already explained my error. I applied the test to items that the FEC already singled out as not being subject to it. That’s why they created a section entitled “Automatic personal use”, which, by definition, means the test the FEC stated does not apply there.

It’s not a contradiction when the FEC spells it out in plain English. Here, I’ll post it again:

“For other expenses not mentioned on this page, the Commission will determine, on a case-by-case basis through the advisory opinion process, whether the expense is one that would exist irrespective of the candidate's campaign or duties as a federal officeholder and would be considered a personal use expense.

“Will determine” =/= “automatic”

The term “contribution” includes— (i) any gift, subscription, loan, advance, or deposit of money or anything of value made by any person for the purpose of influencing any election for Federal office;
Apply it to a tuxedo bought for a campaign rally.
I did, that was the gotcha you laid out for me and I fell into. That’s why the FEC singled this out for exclusion, which follows from the word “automatic”.

My interpretation doesn't require the automatic personal expenses to be in contradiction with the default (irrespective test).
Your interpretation of campaign finance law is that a bunch of lawmakers sat around and wrote thousands of pages explaining what are campaign expenses vs personal expenses just so that the candidates can chuck it all in the trash and determine it for themselves. That’s absurd.

Oh, and it also plainly contradicts the FEC’s interpretation when they stated “the commission will determine…”

Because otherwise the irrespective test could be used by the candidate to abuse campaign laws, the opposite of its intention.
Only if he assumed, like you are assuming, that if the test fails then it is a legitimate campaign expense.
There is no practical way to apply the test in many circumstances, that’s the point you don’t seem to be getting.

The question isn’t whether the test fails “in spirit”, it’s whether the test fails to a degree that is actionable. That is a factor in every law; a law can be written however one wants but is ultimately meaningless if it has no practical mechanism to be enforced.

When it comes to campaign finance law, the essence of what separates the personal from the campaign comes down to intent, which is a very difficult thing to prove so it is only natural that certain expenses types would be singled out for pre-determination.

If the candidate bought a pair of shoes for the exclusive purpose of propping up his own campaign then that does meet the legal definition of a campaign contribution, but it would be absurd for the FEC or anyone else to sit around trying to figure out what the purpose was of every shoe or pair of pants every candidate purchased. Conversely, the candidate could also claim their personal expenses are really for the campaign and then use it as an excuse to live off of donor money. The practical element here has to be dealt with, which is exactly what the FEC is doing when they single out specific types.

This is also why there is an overlap, there are certain expense types that no one but the candidate/campaign is in any position to weigh in on when it comes to determining where it belongs. It’s a practical reality, not the purpose of the law.

You have asserted/implied that if someone intends to help their campaign by spending money, then whatever they are spending money on is a mandated campaign expense.
 That’s literally how the law defines it

That ultra-wide definition of mandated campaign expenses leads to absurdities and the most relevant example of the absurdity is that it bulldozes right over mandated personal expenses.
That’s why we have regulatory bodies to address the specifics behind the law and the FEC did exactly that. They said ‘here are examples that are predetermined, and everything else will be determined based on this test’. There is nothing absurd or difficult to understand about that.
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@Double_R
comes down to intent, which is a very difficult thing to prove...
Unless you have an Orangeman Kafka to execute. Then it's absurdly easy to prove.

 it is only natural that certain expenses types would be singled out for pre-determination.
I seriously doubt you could produce such a definitive list. Not without incriminating an entire party of sycophants.

Furthermore; I seriously doubt you can provide the exact FEC determination made and when they made it specifically regarding the payment made to Cohen.
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@Double_R
They said ‘here are examples that are predetermined, and everything else will be determined based on this test’. 
What exact example (standard) applies to this specific case, so it can then be weaponized on your tribe by your political enemies?
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The jury made the right decision with the information they had, but they were given incorrect information. The prosecution was allowed to argue as a statement of fact that an illegal campaign contribution was made, and the defenses objections were overruled, when if anything the opposite was the case since the FEC investigated this very thing and determined that no violation occurred. 

If those are the facts you have and you are also told that New York State for some reason has the power to adjudicate federal elections violations then yes he is guilty.

I think this article really sums it up. I found this paragraph especially shocking:  

“Merchan allowed the jury to find that the secondary offense was any of the three vaguely defined options. Even on the jury form, they did not have to specify which of the crimes were found. Under Merchan’s instruction, the jury could have split 4-4-4 on what occurred in the case. They could have seen a conspiracy to conceal a federal election violation, falsification of business records or taxation violations. We will never know. Worse yet, Trump will never know”


“so what are you in for?” 

“Funny story…I don’t actually know!”

This was a transparently obvious weaponization of the legal system, which is unfortunate. The other cases against Trump (Georgia, J6, classified documents) all deal with serious issues and the country would’ve been better served if prosecutors there hadn’t tried to time their own trials in an equally transparent attempt to influence the election 

Still, he could’ve avoided this by not being a complete degenerate 
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Let’s not forget that this is a DA who lowers two thirds of violent felonies to misdemeanors but elevated this non violent, long past the statute of limitations misdemeanor to a felony. Gee, wonder why that happened! Surely the identity of the defendant had nothing to do with it right? 

I also think it’s funny that the states theory of the case is that apparently Trump would’ve been totally in the clear using campaign funds from donors to pay off his mistress, but using his own money is felonious. Don’t know why but every time I think about that I laugh. Doesn’t seem like the ideal system to me lol 


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@Greyparrot
No stated underlying crime. Just a statement of possible crimes.
While there are certainly interesting legal questions about the process here, this is such a nonsense complaint from a political perspective. Everyone knows what the underlying crimes are, Trump’s own personal attorney whom he was coordinating all of this with already plead guilty to this very offense prior to the trial. 
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@Greyparrot
What exact example (standard) applies to this specific case, so it can then be weaponized on your tribe by your political enemies?
The standard is that Trump’s actions and the intent behind them were proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be in violation of the law (as the judge determined it).

If you’re looking for a more specific answer then be more specific.
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@Double_R
Lolwut? The standard is now Trump?

Good Lord.
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@Greyparrot
No genius, that’s not even remotely close to what I just said.

Let me know when you have a serious question.
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@Double_R
The standard is that Trump’s actions....
Yeah.... traditional literary dystopias starting to look rather pleasant in comparison....

If this is the current legal standard that your political enemies are going to use to destroy your tribe, I'd say you are pretty doomed.
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@thett3
when if anything the opposite was the case since the FEC investigated this very thing and determined that no violation occurred. 
This is factually false. The office of General counsel at the FEC submitted to the board that Trump’s payment was in fact an illegal contribution, but the vote to rule it as such failed by a partisan 2-2 split.  The statement released by the 2 republicans that voted against it explicitly clarified that they did so as a matter of “prosecutorial discretion” stating that because Cohen already plead guilty the FEC’s concerns were satisfied, so in short, they had other shit to worry about.

This was a transparently obvious weaponization of the legal system, which is unfortunate.
This is what I take issue with. I don’t deny that there are legitimate legal questions at the heart of this that reasonable minds can disagree on, but that doesn’t support claiming the system was weaponized against Trump. For that you need an egregious misrepresentation of the law, not a novel and untested legal theory.

I also think it’s funny that the states theory of the case is that apparently Trump would’ve been totally in the clear using campaign funds from donors to pay off his mistress, but using his own money is felonious.
The absurdity is in what Trump was trying to accomplish - using a large sum of money to influence his own election without anyone ever finding out about it. It’s not a gotcha that he had no legal way of accomplishing this, that’s the point of campaign finance law.
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@Greyparrot
The standard is that Trump’s actions....
If this is the current legal standard that your political enemies are going to use to destroy your tribe, I'd say you are pretty doomed.
You conveniently left off the rest of my post…

“…and the intent behind them were proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be in violation of the law”

Turns out that when your actions along with their intent violate the law, you get prosecuted. Wow.

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@Double_R
Doesn't matter how you clarified the standard, your tribe is screwed. By the "Trump standard"

"Wow" indeed...
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@Double_R
This is factually false. The office of General counsel at the FEC submitted to the board that Trump’s payment was in fact an illegal contribution, but the vote to rule it as such failed by a partisan 2-2 split. 
The point is that the authorities who actually have jurisdiction over federal election law (the FEC and the DOJ…aka not New York State) were made aware of the situation and chose not to bring any fines or charges. You can disagree with their reasoning I guess but that doesn’t make it any more ludicrous for the state of New York to not only take over this alleged offense but to allow the prosecution to state as a fact that Trumps conduct was illegal when he was never charged with anything let alone convicted. 

I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on federal election law. Here is a thread from a former FEC commissioner explaining why Trump didn't violate FEC regulations. Maybe the FEC commissioner is wrong, but that’s not for the state of New York to decide. 

, but that doesn’t support claiming the system was weaponized against Trump. For that you need an egregious misrepresentation of the law, not a novel and untested legal theory.
“Novel” is a polite way to put it. I thought this article was really good too. Looks like it’s paywalled now but this legal analyst for CNN made the point that no prosecution in all fifty states had ever used a federal elections violation as a predicate for a state crime. None, ever, zero. 


Really the issues here are so immense it’s hard to even know where to begin. A judge who donated to the defendants political opponent, the state somehow giving itself the authority to enforce federal law (????), the jury not needing to be unanimous on what the “second crime” even though you need unanimity to be convicted of a crime, the vagueness of the indictment, Trump himself not even knowing what the “second crime” was after he’s been convicted….its highly likely to be reversed on appeal and if Trump narrowly loses an election and then this is reversed months or weeks afterwords that’s very dangerous. It was a bad idea to weaponize the court system in this way.

I have no idea if what Trump did with J6 and/or trying to use mob boss tactics to get Georgia to cast its electoral votes for him are actually illegal or just really unethical but at least those are real issues that warrant prosecuting a former president. Not a bookkeeping violation. They should’ve tried to get him on those immediately upon leaving office instead of trying to time a trial in the sweet spot between him becoming the GOP nominee and before the election. 

The absurdity is in what Trump was trying to accomplish - using a large sum of money to influence his own election without anyone ever finding out about it. It’s not a gotcha that he had no legal way of accomplishing this, that’s the point of campaign finance law.
I’m just saying if you asked people “which is more corrupt, a politician using campaign funds from donors to pay off his mistress or using his own money” people would say that using campaign funds from donors was more corrupt. But apparently that’s what he was supposed to do according to the state of New York, which has the final say on what is or isn’t a federal elections violation
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@ebuc
How many MAGA/DADA { Dumb and Dumber } Cultist vote considerations of Trumpet will change  with these 34 felony counts?
first of all

they were not "campaign funds" and therefore could not violate "campaign finance regulations"

second of all

even if they were "campaign funds" falsifying records in the second degree is a misdemeanor

furthermore

34 felonies sounds impressive

until you realize it's just 34 ledger entries which is basically one violation cut up into 34 pieces

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@Double_R
“…and the intent behind them were proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be in violation of the law”
how did they determine this ?

hypnosis ?

some new kind of brain scan ?
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@Greyparrot
I wonder if they are now allowed to say what the underlying crime actually was.
i thought it was "defrauding voters"
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@Casey_Risk
Wow, I was actually worried he might just end up getting off on most or all of the charges. I guess not! Considering how all the polls I've seen indicate that support for Trump drops significantly in the case that he is convincted of a crime, I'd say Biden's chances of winning this election have gone up significantly. 
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@Sidewalker
I wonder if they are now allowed to say what the underlying crime actually was.
That would be underlying crimes, 34 to be exact.
"falsifying campaign finance records" is a misdemeanor

so that's actually just 34 line items for a single crime, basically one crime cut up into 34 pieces

in order for the misdemeanor to be elevated to a felony

the misdemeanor must be "in-the-service-of a felony"

and apparently they don't even have to specify exactly what that felony is
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@3RU7AL
https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls
Hmm, I guess that was just wishful thinking on my part to believe it could be true. 
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@thett3
Maybe the FEC commissioner is wrong, but that’s not for the state of New York to decide. 
bingo
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@Greyparrot
The Trial by Franz Kafka is a surreal novel about Josef K., a bank official who is unexpectedly arrested on his 30th birthday by mysterious agents. The nature of his crime is never revealed. Though not detained, Josef must navigate a bewildering and oppressive judicial system. His initial hearing is chaotic, held in a decrepit building, with officials providing no clarity. Seeking to understand and defend himself, Josef consults several figures, including a lawyer named Huld, his enigmatic nurse Leni, and a court painter, Titorelli. Each encounter only deepens the sense of absurdity and hopelessness. The legal process becomes increasingly invasive and incomprehensible. Eventually, Josef is taken by two warders to a quarry, where he is executed, ending his life with a sense of helpless resignation. The novel explores themes of corrupt bureaucracy, manufactured guilt, and the impossibility of justice in an indifferent world.
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@thett3
I’m just saying if you asked people “which is more corrupt, a politician using campaign funds from donors to pay off his mistress or using his own money” people would say that using campaign funds from donors was more corrupt. But apparently that’s what he was supposed to do according to the state of New York, which has the final say on what is or isn’t a federal elections violation
exactly

and by the way it was reported in "the news"

i thought the charge was that he paid off stormy with campaign money

that's how misleading the stories are
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@Double_R
a novel and untested legal theory.
with extremely convenient timing
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@thett3
The point is that the authorities who actually have jurisdiction over federal election law (the FEC and the DOJ…aka not New York State) were made aware of the situation and chose not to bring any fines or charges.
Which is fine, when the argument is that the charges should not ultimately stand. We can have reasonable disagreements on that. But when the argument is that the law is being weaponized against Trump, the difference between ‘the FEC decided not to pursue the matter any further since the primary actor in this scheme was already held legally liable for it’ and ‘the FEC determined that it was not a campaign contribution’ is materially different. The latter is misleading at best and at worst is an egregious lie.

this legal analyst for CNN made the point that no prosecution in all fifty states had ever used a federal elections violation as a predicate for a state crime. None, ever, zero.
I am quite frankly, just tired of this argument. Trump is the most unprecedented political figure in our lifetime and probably in the nation’s history. Of course the way he is dealt with would be unprecedented as well.

This argument is essentially one big question begging fallacy. It’s like mob bosses from the 40’s claiming that they are being persecuted because RICO laws are being written specifically to take them down.

Really the issues here are so immense it’s hard to even know where to begin. A judge who donated to the defendants political opponent, the state somehow giving itself the authority to enforce federal law (????), the jury not needing to be unanimous on what the “second crime” even though you need unanimity to be convicted of a crime, the vagueness of the indictment, Trump himself not even knowing what the “second crime” was after he’s been convicted….
The issues seem so immense because there is a concerted effort on the political right to ensure people remain confused about it rather than to educate people on what the charges were and how they can be interpreted reasonably.

The law Trump was convicted of is falsifying business records with the intent of covering up another crime. They did not need to adjudicate whether he actually committed a federal crime, because the intent is the only thing that was required.

I’ve used this analogy a few times already but I’m guessing you didn’t read the whole thread so I’ll try it again here;

Imagine I am on house arrest and I leave my house. It’s a violation no matter why I did it, but the reason I did so matters. If I looked out the window and saw someone getting mugged and decided to stop them… my punishment would be minimal at worst. If on the other hand, I left my house to mug someone else… my punishment would (rightfully) be severe.

In both cases the violation is the same, but the reason why makes the difference as to whether the consequence should be a slap on the wrist or jail time. And it doesn’t even matter if I pulled off the mugging, the fact that this is why I left is makes that violation egregious, and that is what the state is adjudicating.

So no, NY was not enforcing federal law by bringing these charges. And yes Trump knew what these second charges were because everyone in earth did given that his personal attorney who handled this exact violation already pleaded guilty to it. Again, difficult questions to address here legally, but far from an egregious use of the law as a weapon the way the political right is pretending this to be.

I’m just saying if you asked people “which is more corrupt, a politician using campaign funds from donors to pay off his mistress or using his own money” people would say that using campaign funds from donors was more corrupt.
How about neither?
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@3RU7AL
first of all

they were not "campaign funds" and therefore could not violate "campaign finance regulations"
Google “in kind campaign contribution”

second of all

even if they were "campaign funds" falsifying records in the second degree is a misdemeanor
Unless you falsify them with the intent to cover up another crime. That’s how the law works.

I wonder if they are now allowed to say what the underlying crime actually was.
i thought it was "defrauding voters"
Here are the underlying crimes laid out:

“…and the intent behind them were proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be in violation of the law”
how did they determine this ?

hypnosis ?

some new kind of brain scan ?
By applying common sense to the evidence. The exact way we determine criminal intent in nearly every criminal case… ever.

Why do people act like determining a person’s intent is impossible? We do it literally every time we find ourselves around other people, it’s one of the most basic elements of human nature. If we shake hands with someone and they hold our hand a little too long we take that as a sign they want to sleep with us. It doesn’t require mind reading, just common sense.

a novel and untested legal theory.
with extremely convenient timing
It would have been convenient timing no matter when they brought them, and they would have been brought sooner if Trump’s legal strategy wasn’t to delay at all costs.
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@3RU7AL
i thought it was "defrauding voters"
It's an amalgam of unspecified and unproven Federal crimes that Trump was neither charged for, nor allowed to defend himself against.

The DA purposely left the crimes unspecified so that he couldn't defend against accusations of specific intent to commit any specific crime.

It's why the corrupt Judge refused to allow any witness to talk about specific Federal law.

Merchan literally instructed the jury to convict if they simply "felt" an unspecified Federal crime happened.
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The DA purposely left the crimes unspecified so that he couldn't defend against accusations of specific intent to commit any specific crime.
Lie
It's why the corrupt Judge refused to allow any witness to talk about specific Federal law.
Lie
Merchan literally instructed the jury to convict if they simply "felt" an unspecified Federal crime happened.
Lie

More bullshit from our resident liar.
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