34 Felony Counts Guilty

Author: ebuc

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Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
So if the payment to Stormy Daniels was a legal expense (it’s not) then the campaign can pay half of it provided it meets the proceeding requirements (it didn’t).
You claim it didn't meet those requirements, so therefore how much can be covered by campaign money?
$0

If it didn’t meet the requirements then the entire section is moot. So what was your point?

So what is your point?
Oh, my patience will be infinite I promise you. No matter how dumb you act, I will spoon feed it until you have nothing left but denial.
Ah, so your point was to assert your own delusions of grandeur. Got it.
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@Double_R
So if the payment to Stormy Daniels was a legal expense (it’s not) then the campaign can pay half of it provided it meets the proceeding requirements (it didn’t).
You claim it didn't meet those requirements, so therefore how much can be covered by campaign money?
$0

If it didn’t meet the requirements then the entire section is moot. So what was your point?
Contrast:

By reporting it as a campaign contribution
And a campaign expenditure?
Sure
...and if it was a campaign expenditure then he could have used donation money correct?
If the money was donated to the campaign? Sure.

Why does your interpretation of the FEC rules conclude that he could spend $0 campaign dollars, and yet you also claimed he could use 100% campaign dollars?

Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Why does your interpretation of the FEC rules conclude that he could spend $0 campaign dollars
Because he didn’t meet the basic disclosure requirements needed to allow for campaign funds to go towards his personal legal expenses.

and yet you also claimed he could use 100% campaign dollars?
Because I’m talking about the payment to SD which is first of all not a legal expense and therefore not subject to this rule in the first place, and second of all is not a personal expense either since it was made for the purpose of affecting the outcome of the election in his favor. That makes it a campaign expenditure which would have been fine… if it was all reported.
Greyparrot
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Because he didn’t meet the basic disclosure requirements needed to allow for campaign funds to go towards his personal legal expenses.
According to one man (Merchan)

It's kinda cool being a dictator.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Double_R

and yet you also claimed he could use 100% campaign dollars?
Because I’m talking about the payment to SD which is first of all not a legal expense and therefore not subject to this rule in the first place
This isn't a rule so much as an example to inform you of what constitutes a personal expense. Your cult-like denial of the clear meaning of "legal expense" is irrelevant.


and second of all is not a personal expense either since it was made for the purpose of affecting the outcome of the election in his favor.
Let's review

[FEC] In specific situations the Commission has concluded that campaign funds may be used to pay for up to 50 percent of legal expenses that do not relate directly to allegations arising from campaign or officeholder activity (for example, activity prior to becoming a candidate or officeholder or activity of a business owned by the candidate/officeholder) if the candidate or officeholder is required to provide substantive responses to the press regarding the allegations of wrongdoing.

Did these allegations arise from campaign or officeholder activity? No, they predate them. In 2011 SD claimed she had an affair with Trump.

However, if the candidate is required to answer the allegation, as in it has become part of the public discourse on the candidacy, then something changes. Then you can use campaign money to fight the allegations. This obviously includes settlements and settlements often have cash payments and NDA clauses.

The inescapable implication is that it was a personal expense that could be considered partially a campaign expense. True or false?
Greyparrot
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

-Swift
Mall
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@ebuc
Anything to keep from making America great.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Greyparrot
You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
You still have to give them the chance to give their reasons, otherwise you don't know whether they reasoned themselves into it.
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Your cult-like denial of the clear meaning of "legal expense" is irrelevant.
Your cult-like insistence that handing a porn star $130k to stay silent is a legal expense is every bit as irrelevant.

Question; if Trump and Daniels had just sat down at the kitchen table and agreed that he would hand her $130k cash if she promises not to speak about it… is that still a legal expense?

The inescapable implication is that it was a personal expense that could be considered partially a campaign expense. True or false?
Could have been considered a campaign expense? Yes, it could have. Which would have required public disclosure, the thing Trump falsified his business records to conceal.
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
Because he didn’t meet the basic disclosure requirements needed to allow for campaign funds to go towards his personal legal expenses.
According to one man (Merchan)
According to the English language. Are you even following the thread you decided to chime in on?

You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Clearly
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Double_R

The inescapable implication is that it was a personal expense that could be considered partially a campaign expense. True or false?
Could have been considered a campaign expense? Yes, it could have. Which would have required public disclosure, the thing Trump falsified his business records to conceal.
Not just a personal expense, not just a campaign expense, but both at the same time.

That's right boyz, it's the double slit experiment all over again FEC style.

"Up to 50%"

Who chooses how much?

Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
"Up to 50%"

Who chooses how much?
The candidate, as long as they don’t surpass 50%. This is basic English.

Not just a personal expense, not just a campaign expense, but both at the same time.

That's right boyz, it's the double slit experiment all over again FEC style.
No idea what this is. Are you trying to gloat, and if so, why? You still haven’t addressed the central issue.

It doesn’t matter whether the expenditure could have been covered by the campaign, it wasn’t because the money was never reported as a campaign donation in the first place and campaign expenditures also require disclosure which was never done here, so this entire conversation is irrelevant.

So what is your point?
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@Double_R
"Up to 50%"

Who chooses how much?
The candidate, as long as they don’t surpass 50%.
So if Trump had chosen 2% he would have had to declare 2% to be a donation and then filed an expenditure of that 2%. "$2,600 to Stormy Daniels"?


This is basic English.
Like a parrot throwing out the same phrase at random.
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
So if Trump had chosen 2% he would have had to declare 2% to be a donation and then filed an expenditure of that 2%. "$2,600 to Stormy Daniels"?
No. If the payment to SD was in fact a personal expense then the legal bills associated with executing the contract would have fallen under this provision. But as the trial proved, it wasn’t a personal expense, it was a campaign donation/expenditure. So the first step is that it would need to have been reported as such. From there the rest of this rule is irrelevant because if it’s a campaign expense the campaign could then have paid 100% of the costs associated with it.
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Question; if Trump and Daniels had just sat down at the kitchen table and agreed that he would hand her $130k cash if she promises not to speak about it… is that still a legal expense?
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Double_R
So if Trump had chosen 2% he would have had to declare 2% to be a donation and then filed an expenditure of that 2%. "$2,600 to Stormy Daniels"?
No. If the payment to SD was in fact a personal expense then the legal bills associated with executing the contract would have fallen under this provision.
It's not a provision, it's an example.

What's the difference between lawyers salary and NDA compensation? Justify with FEC precedent or law citation.


But as the trial proved, it wasn’t a personal expense
No such thing was proved.


From there the rest of this rule is irrelevant because if it’s a campaign expense the campaign could then have paid 100% of the costs associated with it.
This precedent is not irrelevant, it is on a page teaching us what the difference between personal and campaign expenses is and undeniably proving that there are cases where expenses could be either and as you just admitted the choice of whether those kind of expenses are personal or not is up to the candidate:

"Up to 50%"

Who chooses how much?
Double_R: The candidate

Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
What's the difference between lawyers salary and NDA compensation? Justify with FEC precedent or law citation.
I already explained this. Get to your point.

But as the trial proved, it wasn’t a personal expense
No such thing was proved.
The jury unanimously disagreed.
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Question; if Trump and Daniels had just sat down at the kitchen table and agreed that he would hand her $130k cash if she promises not to speak about it… is that still a legal expense?
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
Justify with FEC precedent or law citation.
So there's none?
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Greyparrot
@Double_R
What's the difference between lawyers salary and NDA compensation? Justify with FEC precedent or law citation.
[Double_R] I already explained this. Get to your point.
You did not. Again, the question is:

What's the difference between lawyers salary (which can be paid with up to 50% of campaign funds under certain circumstances) and NDA compensation? Justify with FEC precedent or law citation.


[Greyparrot] So there's none?
Don't hold your breath. It's going to take a long time before he gets tired of running around in circles and quits.
Greyparrot
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Have you seen the Piers Morgan segment on this court ruling? It's hilarious. The Democrat guest panelist had to Google what the law was in between the break and she still didn't get it right!

O'Leary says let the ppl decide who will be president and Franscesca shakes her head no, while accusing Michael Knowles of fascism. You can't make this shit up.

Double_R
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@Greyparrot
Justify with FEC precedent or law citation.
So there's none?
Not how logic works
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Again, the question is:
Get to your point.

Don't hold your breath. It's going to take a long time before he gets tired of running around in circles and quits
What I’m tired of is this line of questioning where you’re asking me to provide a legal interpretation of the words you cited, even though neither of us are lawyers.

But that’s fine, we can both apply our own logic and reasoning and have a reasonable discussion about what it says and what it means.

What I’m not willing to do is waste my time googling information for you when you refuse to chime in with any thoughts of your own. If you have a point then make it. Otherwise I’m not interested in playing your silly little game. Especially when I’ve been asking you one very simple question that doesn’t require you to google anything and you’ve been ignoring it for days. Here, I’ll post it again so you can ignore it… again.

Question; if Trump and Daniels had just sat down at the kitchen table and agreed that he would hand her $130k cash if she promises not to speak about it… is that still a legal expense?

cristo71
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@Greyparrot
The constant smirk on the middle dude’s face is hilarious.
Greyparrot
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@cristo71
What's even more hilarious is that he is a die hard Trump hater (like Romney) and even this is way too much for him.
cristo71
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@Greyparrot
Yes, he appears to be anti Trump yet not afflicted with TDS. A rare individual much like yourself!
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@Double_R
Again, the question is:
Get to your point.
You have rewritten history and twisted campaign finance law beyond sanity. Your interpretation has absurd implications. There is evidence of this everywhere, including on the FEC's own website giving guidance not one when you MUST call something a campaign expenditure but when you MAY NOT call it a campaign expenditure.

There we find proof that personal and campaign expenses are not mutually exclusive concepts, it is acceptable in some circumstances to pay for the same expense with some personal money (unreported) and some campaign money.

There are two purposes of campaign finance laws:
1.) To keep campaigns from defrauding the donors by spending their money on non-campaign expenses
2.) To inform the public about potential special interests and lobbying


By twisting the law into an absurd notion that anything which may impact a campaign CANNOT be personal expenses you:

B) Give Trump (and anywhere else you would equally apply your interpretation to) a choice between the fryer and the fire in all cases where the long recognized overlap of potential campaign expenditures and personal expenses.

For example the FEC allows campaign money to be used to pay for travel in order to attend a campaign event. Taylor Swift endorsed Biden in 2020. She has personal jets. Under your interpretation if she used her jet to travel to a Biden rally she paid for jet fuel and crew costs to influence a campaign. She would then need to report an in kind campaign.

If Trump built a building as candidate and put his name on it, as he always have, your interpretation would hold that it was money spent to influence an election.

No one has ever been held to this standard because it is unlawful and downright stupid. Now you have admitted that a lawyer's fee can be simultaneously paid for by campaign money and personal money, being forced into that corner by the FEC. You only have one chance to recover your position, and that is to somehow give objective and relevant reasons why compensated NDAs would not be just like lawyers fees as far as federal election law and FEC guidelines (informed by past court decisions) are concerned.

Bringing us back to:

What's the difference between lawyer's salary (which can be paid with up to 50% of campaign funds under certain circumstances) and NDA compensation? Justify with FEC precedent or law citation.


even though neither of us are lawyers.
Didn't stop you when you asserted repeatedly that NDA compensation is necessarily campaign expenditure repeatedly.... did it?


Especially when I’ve been asking you one very simple question
That's gish galloping. There will be plenty of time to debate other points when you're not trying to escape the contention you're failing to defend.
Greyparrot
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I was discussing an analogy with a TDS co-worker. Imagine you were pulled over for a broken headlight, and the officer used his discretion to the extreme stating he felt you were going to rob a bank because having no headlights is a suspicious misdemeanor in his mind. He then arrests you for committing a misdemeanor while on the way to rob a bank. This is the kind of loose discretionary law used expansively in the South during the Jim Crow era. Something the Constitution was supposed to fix.
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@Greyparrot
This is the kind of loose discretionary law used expansively in the South during the Jim Crow era.
Indeed it is.

How misguided they are who look at Jim Crow era and think "there is a systematic error" but instead of looking at the system (the government) they try to delve deep in the the hind-brain of the human species and reinvent original sin.

The reason the US form of government (now essentially copied by almost all nations) was enlightened at the turn of the 18th century was precisely because it was crafted on the assumption that people are going to be irrational and evil at times and something needs to hamper that, at least for a time.

What the experiment has shown us is that good law crafts good men because it has a coherent structure arising from objective morals. It makes people think the right way, and it's been a long slow path of corruption.

John Adams said "a nation of laws, not men". He meant exactly this. Any time an agent of the government has arbitrary power over you, and you know you better kiss the boot and grovel because they can screw you and get away with it, that is living in a nation of men, not laws.

Of course even if we didn't have a big pile of Jim Crow style laws which are intentionally vague in order to create a nation of men, if enough people are deranged enough it would not matter.

But it's not like one goes without the other. The philosophy of America has corroded and with it comes the bad laws which are used by the corrupt which accelerates the degradation.
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
If Trump built a building as candidate and put his name on it, as he always have, your interpretation would hold that it was money spent to influence an election.

No one has ever been held to this standard because it is unlawful and downright stupid.
Strawman arguments normally are downright stupid, that’s the point of them. You can’t refute my actual position so you have to make one up to attack instead.

The test of what makes an expense personal vs a campaign contribution that I’ve been arguing is exactly the same is your own link:

“if the expense would exist even in the absence of the candidacy or even if the officeholder were not in office, then the personal use ban applies.”

Notice the key word in this sentence: “would”. Not “could”, as in, not in some absurd imaginary theoretical example, but “would”, as in, in real life what would have happened.

In the case at hand, and in accordance with the above test, the burden was on the prosecution to show that this payment was expressly for the purposes of advancing Trump’s campaign. And they did. The timing of the payment gives that away right off the bat, the testimony of Pecker demonstrating Trump’s personal involvement and motivations, the Hope Hick testimony showings the campaigns urgency on controlling this issue, etc. They made very clear what this was all about.

Nothing in your Trump hypothetical applies. There is no reason to think putting his name on a building as he has done his entire life would not have occurred if he were not running for office.

You keep twisting my words into ‘if a possible personal expense can be considered a campaign expense, then any expense can be twisted into a campaign expense’. That’s an absurd interpretation of my argument and you do this all the time. You clearly have a disdain for the concept of applying logic and reason to interpret laws.

So again, let me make this very simple. Instead of asking for legal citations and historical precedent, here is very simply what I am talking about so if you have an issue with the way I am interpreting campaign finance law take it up with the FEC:

“When candidates use their personal funds for campaign purposes, they are making contributions to their campaigns.”

What's the difference between lawyer's salary and NDA compensation?
Reimbursements are not part of someone’s salary.

Didn't stop you when you asserted repeatedly that NDA compensation is necessarily campaign expenditure
I never said NDA compensation is necessarily a campaign expenditure. I said this payment was a campaign expenditure. As in the one Trump made and was convicted for.

Question; if Trump and Daniels had just sat down at the kitchen table and agreed that he would hand her $130k cash if she promises not to speak about it… is that still a legal expense?
Still waiting.