I’m an atheist, but willing to be convinced otherwise

Author: Moozer325
Atheism

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#91
Stephen
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@3RU7AL
Tradesecret wrote @3RU7AL



I would suggest there is a further qualification to it. It is the direct personal experience to gain a spiritual or mystical knowledge that no one else has the capacity to obtain.  Almost priestlike.  It's the sort of spiritual knowledge that Stephen has. No one else comes to the same conclusions regarding the Bible but him. No one reading the same scriptures would ordinarily come to same conclusion unless they were led to it by him.  He is a priest in that sense. 
Well once again, you are totally off the mark, Reverend thicko. .  I don't possess any "mystical knowledge", neither do I possess any "spiritual knowledge",  I am not "a priest" in any shape or form and I was not "led to" my understanding of the gospels by anyone. I chose my subject, I chose what to read about it and I choose what makes sense to me and appears logical and have came to my own conclusions- be they right or wrong SEE HERE THICKO >#24 .  There is nothing magical or mysterious about wanting to learn and what I have learned. 

It's the alleged secret meanings that are mystical and more gnostic like. Again, Stephen, is the arch type of this person on this site.

Well doesn't the BIBLE itself speak of "the mysteries"? Jesus himself teaches one thing to his inner circle and "certain other disciples" for the sole reason of keeping others in the dark  in order that "seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand".






#92
3RU7AL
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@Tradesecret
So do you reject direct personal experience? 

I would suggest there is a further qualification to it. It is the direct personal experience to gain a spiritual or mystical knowledge that no one else has the capacity to obtain.  Almost priestlike.  It's the sort of spiritual knowledge that Stephen has. No one else comes to the same conclusions regarding the Bible but him. No one reading the same scriptures would ordinarily come to same conclusion unless they were led to it by him.  He is a priest in that sense. 
i don't "reject" GNOSIS

but it is not something that can be "argued" using mundane language

and it is not something that can be analyzed "scientifically"

deep conviction is almost never the result of "reason"

and i think it is misguided (albeit entertaining) to attempt intuitive post hoc rationalization

your reply here is remarkably stellar
#93
3RU7AL
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@Stephen
Well doesn't the BIBLE itself speak of "the mysteries"? Jesus himself teaches one thing to his inner circle and "certain other disciples" for the sole reason of keeping others in the dark  in order that "seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand".
well stated
#94
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@Deb-8-a-bull
IM NOT GOING TO SET IT UP. 
NOPE. 
perfect

13 days later

#95
WyIted
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@Moozer325
Ive been atheist for a while now, but I’m just realizing that I haven’t really heard both sides of the argument. No disrespect to Alex O’Connor, but I feel like sometimes the sources I’m getting this stuff from can be a little one-sided, and what better place to hear the other side, than right here?
Bro it's not that complicated. Just pray to the Christian God and ask him to guide you to knowledge of his existence. 
#96
3RU7AL
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@WyIted
Bro it's not that complicated. Just pray to the Christian God and ask him to guide you to knowledge of his existence. 

talking donkeys for everyone !!!!!
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#97
Moozer325
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@WyIted
But what if he’s not real? Then I’m wasting my time.
#98
zedvictor4
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@Moozer325
Just do some Christian stuff for a bit and see how you get on.

And then perhaps watch TV for a while and have a sandwich and a drink.

And tomorrow...Maybe some Buddhist stuff and a pizza or something.

And the next day...Wash your hands and feet, shoot some infidels and enjoy a goat curry.

Endless hours of theist fun to be had by atheists.
#99
WyIted
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@Moozer325
WTF. It takes 10 seconds to pray to God. You can kill 2 birds with one stone we by doing it while you take a shit
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#100
Moozer325
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@WyIted
I phrased that wrong. I’m not concerned with should I believe in god, I’m concerned with it he’s even real, just for the sake of knowing.
#101
WyIted
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@Moozer325
He is real. Now that you know that, I am not sure the information is helpful.  

It doesn't necessarily mean an afterlife is real or that your values matter or that their is a such thing as justice or that he is of any use to you.

Knowing he is real is just step one though. Pray to him and see if he is the type of God to care about a random person's prayers. Ask him to guide you to him, if it is possible to be any closer to him than you are now
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#102
Moozer325
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@WyIted
Well that’s not the question I’m asking. How do you know he’s real?
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#103
Moozer325
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@WyIted
I have tried praying, but never got anywhere. I’m gonna need more proof than just personal experiences.
#104
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@Moozer325
It actually can be definitively proven by looking at Godel's version of the ontological argument. It will take you 2 years of full time study to understand the logic behind it though.

A much shorter path is just deciding to believe and see what happens. However if you can't force yourself and personally I couldn't either than you have to experience a kind of awakening.

Sometimes this can be accomplished with hallucinogenic drugs, particularly DMT. Once you take DMT, often times the veil of the world is lifted. If you realize the world is a veil the next logical step is belief in God.

I sense you are young and I wouldn't recommend drugs anyway. The alternative is to push yourself hard. Honestly the alternative is to experience a lot of trauma, but you have to do some self induced trauma and the only practical recommendation I can give is to push your body way too far. Past where your mind thinks you can go. Listen to Joe Rogan interview David Goggins. He beat the shit out of himself for year and seals are elite athletes in their own right. 

The intense pain helps you see beyond the veil. 

After you see beyond the veil, most people fall into a depression caused by an existential crisis. Just know that the pain is temporary in don't give up on this world. 
#105
WyIted
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@Moozer325
I have tried praying, but never got anywhere. I’m gonna need more proof than just personal experiences.
I can understand that. God I felt was ignoring me so I prayed to Satan and the results were quicker. I promised him my undying loyalty for wisdom. A type of Faustian bargain. 
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#106
Moozer325
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@WyIted
I would love to learn about Godel’s ontological argument. I get the feeling that you also value knowledge, and short of making a deal with the devil, I would love to acquire it. If you could point me in a direction at least, that would be great.
#107
WyIted
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@Moozer325
I think I helped you as much as I could. This is not usually knowledge you get from.studying.

You just have to enjoy the journey of figuring it out, which will take years and in the end you will still have uncertainty no matter which side of the fence you come down . It doesn't get easier, though I would caution against being one of the outliers who does gain certainty.  Those people are idiots
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#108
Moozer325
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@WyIted
Well thanks for the help. I think I’ve already started that journey, but I’ll definitely keep at it.
#109
FLRW
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@Moozer325

Quantum Theory disproves Gödel's ontological proof.
Divine action through quantum biology leads to unsavory implications for theodicy. If God’s action in the quantum domain is not episodic, and instead God acts through quantum processes to actualize biological events like DNA mutations, then responsibility for diseases which come from such mutations must also lie with God. Cancer, for example, is caused by mutations in the genes that control cell growth. If responsibility for the quantum processes that cause genetic mutations lies with God, then by Robert Russell’s own account of bottom-up causality God is also responsible for the diseases themselves and the physical and psychological suffering they cause. To be consistent, the claim that moral responsibility is carried up the causal chain must apply to both praise and blame. If God is considered ultimately responsible for the higher-level goods which emerge moving up the causal chain, such as speciation, then mutatis mutandis he is also responsible for cancers and other similarly caused diseases. Cancer is one of the primary causes of death in humans and brings with it great pain and suffering; the claim that God is responsible jars with the idea that God is omnibenevolent and is a significant problem for Russell’s thesis.


#110
zedvictor4
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@FLRW
Dat.


When your day is long

And the night, the night is yours alone

When you're sure you've had enough

Of this life, well hang on.


Don't let yourself go

'Cause everybody cries

Everybody hurts sometimes.

67 days later

#111
Shila
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@Moozer325
Ive been atheist for a while now, but I’m just realizing that I haven’t really heard both sides of the argument. No disrespect to Alex O’Connor, but I feel like sometimes the sources I’m getting this stuff from can be a little one-sided, and what better place to hear the other side, than right here?
If you are ready to give up atheism you are ready to hear the other side. A religion forum is a good start.