I have spent lot of years mainly figuring out what myself and this reality is all about.

Author: 3RU7AL
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@MAV99
Every Cause is indeterminate until the actual moment of causation.

ok, so you're having trouble with the idea of "predetermination"

that's fine

i consider myself an indeterminist

but only because of random noise

which could also potentially be simply a lack-of-precision



what are you injecting into "the actual moment of causation" if not random noise ?


also, causes-and-effects are continuous and only identified post-hoc as "discrete events"
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@3RU7AL
what are you injecting into "the actual moment of causation" if not random noise ?
The answer to this is very abstract.

When talking about Being we can can say two very basic notions of it.

1. What is
2. What could be.

I am going to call number 1 Act
I am going to call number 2 Potency

In order for a cause to cause it must give Act to a Potency. I.E. It must make "what is" out of "what could be"
The actual moment of causation is the cause giving Act to a Potency. The effect is the resultant Act.
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@MAV99
The actual moment of causation is the cause giving Act to a Potency. The effect is the resultant Act.
is this resultant act wholly informed by your biology and experience ?

or is there something more

some "magic" perhaps associated with converting "potency" into a "resultant act" ?
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@3RU7AL
is this resultant act wholly informed by your biology and experience ?
It is an abstract explnation of cause and effect. 

If your biology or experianced causes something it cannot wholly inform it because no effect is greater than its cause.

some "magic" perhaps associated with converting "potency" into a "resultant act" ?
No. 

12 days later

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@MAV99
If your biology or experianced causes something it cannot wholly inform it because no effect is greater than its cause.

ok, so

no magic

and by "wholly inform" i mean transfer of physical and or mental energy from one state (before interaction) to another state (after interaction)

in other words

when you (or your soul or whatever you consider yourself) decide whether or not you should hit the snooze button on your alarm clock one more time or simply get up

do you believe that decision

is 100% comprised of your (biological capabilities and needs) + (your accumulated values and experiences) ?
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@3RU7AL
is 100% comprised of your (biological capabilities and needs) + (your accumulated values and experiences) ?
No. It is simply the determination brought about by my free will.
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@MAV99
No. It is simply the determination brought about by my free will.
if your soul is capable of accumulating experience

and has a design with finite capabilities

then you're just pushing back the question

your soul has no free-will

YHWH has no free-will

because YHWH cannot have a will

because a will is defined as goal-seeking-in-service-of-desire

and YHWH is incapable of desire because it is omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent

YHWH is also incapable of goal-seeking because it is omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent
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@3RU7AL
because a will is defined as goal-seeking-in-service-of-desire

No it is not defined as that.  

How is that a will? You miss an essential aspect by not even mentioning that the will is the cause of movement in humans.

I think your understanding of will. esp. free will is very lacking.
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@MAV99
I think your understanding of will. esp. free will is very lacking.
feel free to present your personally preferred definitions
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@3RU7AL

feel free to present your personally preferred definitions


I think there are different senses to the word "free"
1. Lacking constraint to a particular determination
2. undetermined being
3. ability to make a determination regardless of influence.
Free will is actually all three. And can be defined as "the ability to determine this action action (versus other possible actions), regardless of influence."
The first one speak of "free" by itself
The second one speaks of "free" regarding the object (thing that is free)
Number three speaks of the act of "free" namely ability to determine. It is complimented by the first, so we add the "regardless of influence"
what makes my position different from what you said above, is that I say it is regardless of influences.

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@MAV99
1. Lacking constraint to a particular determination
2. undetermined being
3. ability to make a determination regardless of influence.
in this sense

the only "free" decision you could make

would be unconstrained by your physical capabilities

would be unconstrained by your mental capabilities

and unconstrained by your experience (not contextual)

that sounds about as close to "totally random" as anyone can imagine
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@3RU7AL
would be unconstrained by your physical capabilities

would be unconstrained by your mental capabilities

and unconstrained by your experience (not contextual)

Physical limits exist.
mental limits exist.
limits to your experiance exist.

It does not change the character of ability to choose. Nor does it change the character of undetermined being. You jumped over the rest of what I have said.

We are talking about ability, a power you have, it is not something seperate from the person.

that sounds about as close to "totally random" as anyone can imagine
Your interpretation of it. And "randomness" only has to do with the effect as an object, not the cause.

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@MAV99
Physical limits exist.
mental limits exist.
limits to your experiance exist.

It does not change the character of ability to choose. Nor does it change the character of undetermined being.
your ability to act is constrained

your ability to think (choose/desire/will) is also constrained

if you are freed from those constraints you are free of constraint

your essential self is comprised of your physical capabilities + experience

if you free yourself from those defining characteristics

you are no longer a "self"
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@3RU7AL
your essential self is comprised of your physical capabilities + experience
No it is not.

"Free" in the will means ability to choose regardless of of influence. (or constraints if you want)
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@MAV99
"Free" in the will means ability to choose regardless of of influence. (or constraints if you want)
your will always serves your desire

will is never free from desire
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@3RU7AL
will is never free from desire
I never said the will is free from desire. The desire will always be there. It has to be there.

The will is free to reject that desire.
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@MAV99
The will is free to reject that desire.
the will can prioritize one desire over another

but must always choose the best option

i always make the best possible choice based on the information at hand
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@3RU7AL
but must always choose the best option
Why?

Your sentence contradicts itself.

If it "must always" do the best option, then it is not choosing.

The will is free to choose even an option that is not the best. I know doctors who habitually smoke. I think they know it is not the best option, yet they still choose...
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@MAV99
If it "must always" do the best option, then it is not choosing.
bingo
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@MAV99
The will is free to choose even an option that is not the best. I know doctors who habitually smoke. I think they know it is not the best option, yet they still choose...
best in that moment of decision

your desire to enjoy a smoke

supersedes your fear of consequences

and is therefore

the best option in that moment

selecting from competing desires

does not mean you are "free from desires"
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@3RU7AL
does not mean you are "free from desires"
I never said it was free from desires.

I said it is free to choose regardless of desires. It can choose none of the desires.

the best option in that moment
So... not the best option, but what you see as the best option.
totally different thing

And it does not have to choose the options. It can choose none of them.
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@MAV99
I said it is free to choose regardless of desires. It can choose none of the desires.
you can only choose "none" if "none" is the MOST DESIRED in that moment
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@MAV99
So... not the best option, but what you see as the best option.
EXACTLY

you must always choose the best option BASED ON THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE AT HAND
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@3RU7AL
Why?
You still have not answered that.

And no. I can choose against what I know is the best option.
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@MAV99
And no. I can choose against what I know is the best option.

if you are motivated to prove the dominance of your will

you CAN make a choice that (apparently) "contradicts" your standard motive hierarchy

but ONLY if you value the demonstration of dominance MORE than you fear the consequence of that demonstration


you are still choosing the best option for yourself based on the information available at hand
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@3RU7AL
you are still choosing the best option for yourself based on the information available at hand
Not really.

Even with all the available information the will still can choose something else.
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@MAV99
Even with all the available information the will still can choose something else.
you can only choose your preferred option
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@3RU7AL
you can only choose your preferred option
No. you can still choose otherwise.
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@MAV99
No. you can still choose otherwise.
you can only choose your preferred option

your will cannot take action or willfully withhold action without motive
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@3RU7AL
you can only choose your preferred option
Then it is not choosing.

The fact is that you can choose. Even what is not your preferred option.