Children pose a problem for the doctrine of hell.

Author: Benjamin

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#31
Benjamin
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@DavidAZZ
You say I split hairs but there is an important difference. The soul can carry your personality into heaven and enter a perfect spiritual body or whatever you believe. But you do not receive your personality at conception, you get molded into your personality by your DNA and the people you surround yourself by. A fetus cannot have a personality, even if it had a soul. 

You really created a lot of laws here by yourself.
I am simply showing the implications of your idea. If you believe that an aborted soul gets assigned to another zygote, then that means there are either 2 souls in said zygote, or the original soul has to be removed or simply never been created to begin with. I didn't mean "fired" literally. 


You know this for sure? If you read this Bible you claim to know, then you would know that he calls all men everywhere to repent. 
Acts 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” There is no other name given under heaven to which mankind can be saved than the name of Jesus Christ. Only Jesus can save. He has overcome sins and the power of darkness.

He has a way to reach the amazon tribes. 
So far, Christians have made first contact with thousands of tribes and cultures. None of them believed in Jahwe or Jesus prior to meeting missionaries. Why should the amazon tribes be any different. Maybe you mean that Acts 4:12 is untrue.

Also, he has different demands for different people.
Okay, that is what you meant. Well then, let us assume that you can be saved without believing in Jesus specifically. Must you be a monotheist? That raises many of the same problems. Again, there is no way for primitive tribes to deduce monotheism based only on nature. They had their own creation myths and their own gods.  

There was a general law of righteousness given in ancient times.
This is irrelevant. One cannot be saved by works alone, so nobody can be saved by following the law, not even a good law. 

I would give the Amazonian tribe a lot more slack than any of us.
Really? So you believe that worhipping false Gods piously and following the chief is sufficient for salvation? Is that a valid way to interpret the Bible? 
#32
Stephen
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@DavidAZZ
Where, just like that dulcet dunce the Reverend Tradesecret,  you appear to have failed too. You never did finish that conversation but simply deserted it. Would you like to take it up again now you are back and refreshed with your new double Z monica?
Ah, the ever so angry Stephen who is mad at God for some reason and will never reveal it.  Then goes on to state how the Bible is foolish but will believe silly fables like the alien theory of our origins. LOL!
Nope.  



I think tradesecret doesn't really know what the Bible says either.

Yep, and neither do you. 


Coming from the way you answer certain posts, I see that you are angry at God

Nope . But you should be. Considering the god that you so adore  admits to being a jealous god of war  among many other vile things. A god that only has the interest , wealth and prosperity of only  one bloodline at heart and would murder and kill children at the drop of a hat..... for a bet. 

A god that  one minute condemns Satan to" crawl on his belly for the rest oh his days" for  deceiving and corrupting mankind only for us to discover that he has been "walking to and fro about the earth" all the time!  and torturing Job with gods blessing"! for a bet!   And  at later  time we find him AGAIN testing "gods" son Jesus in the desert and offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the Earth <<<<< Do you see my point you absolute clown!


and want to destroy anything about him [god] in your mind. 

I couldn't do that if I wanted to you clown. Your god is an ancient "god " that has had his time to rule. The God of the OT was never the same "god" as the "god" of Jesus' time.  But you are an idiot whose mind cannot grasp this fact.  Start reading the rules as put down by the Mesopotamian "gods"<<< That's where Abraham came from .  In fact, try reading the fkn bible that also attest to this fact.



You don't believe in him and so you try to use any way to discount his existence. 

Nope. I believe these ancient lords existed. The bible is definite on the matter. The ancient South Americans literature also attest to the same. As do the ancient cultures and literature of the East and Far East. I have no problem believing anything they say about these Lords.  They all point skyward and tell us that they were ruled by them and what they were taught by them. 
The difference is, is that regardless of what I believe to be  evidence, I wouldn't never be dumb or stupid enough to claim to be able to prove what I  only believe..... unlike yourself. 


To each his own, I guess.

You said it. Reverend. 



#33
DavidAZZ
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@Benjamin
You say I split hairs but there is an important difference. The soul can carry your personality into heaven and enter a perfect spiritual body or whatever you believe. But you do not receive your personality at conception, you get molded into your personality by your DNA and the people you surround yourself by. A fetus cannot have a personality, even if it had a soul. 
I see what you are saying now.  I agree that a personality will be molded from it's environment, BUT I also believe that is not the only factor.  I have a few kids and they all have the same parents, the same upbringing, the same home, the same rules, the same everything EXCEPT birth order. (I know birth order will play a role too).  Each one of those kids has a different way they see things, different way they respond, etc.  So, I do think their personality is acquired at birth but also it can be shaped through their experiences.

I am simply showing the implications of your idea. If you believe that an aborted soul gets assigned to another zygote, then that means there are either 2 souls in said zygote, or the original soul has to be removed or simply never been created to begin with. I didn't mean "fired" literally. 
I see.  You are saying that if a soul is created at conception, then the baby aborted later, the soul would then be transferred to another conception, which should already have received it's soul from conception.  Now, therefore, 2 in one.  The one from conception, the other from the transfer.  I guess then the soul would have to be assigned after conception. 

Acts 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” There is no other name given under heaven to which mankind can be saved than the name of Jesus Christ. Only Jesus can save. He has overcome sins and the power of darkness.
This is correct and without getting too deep into Christian doctrine, there is no other name given is referring to baptism. (Acts 2:38)  The name must be applied to our lives.

So far, Christians have made first contact with thousands of tribes and cultures. None of them believed in Jahweh or Jesus prior to meeting missionaries. Why should the amazon tribes be any different. Maybe you mean that Acts 4:12 is untrue.
Okay, that is what you meant. Well then, let us assume that you can be saved without believing in Jesus specifically. Must you be a monotheist? That raises many of the same problems. Again, there is no way for primitive tribes to deduce monotheism based only on nature. They had their own creation myths and their own gods.  

Acts 4:12 is always true, but God had always made exceptions.  The thief on the cross was to be with Jesus in paradise, without the Mosaic law or even without baptism.  So can God do whatever he wants?  Abraham believed God and he(God) counted it to Abraham as righteousness.  Abraham was "saved" without the Mosaic law and the New Testament new birth.  We have no other record of God working in other cultures than what we have in the Bible, BUT that doesn't mean that God didn't give those cultures a way of salvation.

This is irrelevant. One cannot be saved by works alone, so nobody can be saved by following the law, not even a good law. 
This is actually very relevant.  If works saved no one, then no one was saved until Jesus was resurrected and the Spirit of God poured out on the day of Pentecost.  I do not believe that God let mankind be sent to hell until the start of the new testament church.  Look at Enoch before the flood.  His story is that he pleased God, without the law, without the blood of Jesus and he was taken by God.  If the plan of God was ONLY the blood of Jesus, then a vast percentage of the Earth's population would be hell-bound and almost all without hope.  Why would God do that?

Really? So you believe that worshipping false Gods piously and following the chief is sufficient for salvation? Is that a valid way to interpret the Bible? 
It is obvious that idolatry is a sin, but it is also obvious that God loved his creation, so much so to come down and become the ultimate sacrifice in our stead. (Not trying to preachy)  So to say that it is "sufficient for salvation" would be in error.  I'm saying there was probably a code given to every culture to follow and God would honor to an extent, but at a certain point every man will be given an opportunity to serve God or not.

Again, we don't know the mind of God and I agree that thinking a small group of people in and around Jerusalem would be the only ones saved after the resurrection would be heartless and contrary to biblical definition of God.

I just know that I'm not in that arena and I am to obey the Bible the commandments that I am taught, not shake my fist at God when I don't understand his ways and how they would apply to others.
#34
DavidAZZ
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@Stephen
Ooh!  He comes out swinging!

I like your ways Stephen!  I do admire your abilities to think critically and I have actually learned a lot from you.  If it seems that I attack you it is only because you are a prick.

You never answered the Monica thing.
#35
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@DavidAZZ
Ooh!  He comes out swinging!

I like your ways Stephen!  I do admire your abilities to think critically and I have actually learned a lot from you.

Flattery will get you absolutely nowhere with me. But keep trying.


  If it seems that I attack you it is only because you are a prick.

🤣🤣🤣


You never answered the Monica thing.

Its slang and sometimes spelt moniker.  name, signature, user name .

Something else you've learned from me.

Off you go now.

#36
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@Stephen
Something else you've learned from me.
Ah.  Never fails to inspire.
#37
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@DavidAZZ
So are you going to start a another thread telling us how great, good, just, caring and loving god is?
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#38
Benjamin
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@DavidAZZ
All humans would choose to accept Jesus if they got to experience hell even for a second. Therefore, God could save every single human by putting them in hell for one second, then pull them out and explain his gospel. All of them would understand God's just wrath as well as his love and mercy, and would freely choose to accept Jesus as their lord and saviour. So if God wanted it, hell would be empty. Or maybe God is too stupid to think of a simple solution like that. 


I'm saying there was probably a code given to every culture to follow and God would honor to an extent
Again. You live in the rainforrest and you follow the chief. You defeat an enemy in war and proceed to eat them. You then pray to false gods and go to sleep. 

Are you saying that any of these people get into heaven?
#39
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@Stephen
So are you going to start a another thread telling us how great, good, just, caring and loving god is?
If you really want to spout off about how much you hate God, but everybody already knows this about you.  I already told you that I just wanted to see your views and others because I have never been told that God was "bad" and had always been shown as good and just and such.  I've had atheists tell me that God doesn't exist but never that the God of the Bible was bad or corrupt.  It was an interesting thread to say the least, but I didn't try to "prove" anything.  The thread was only so you could spout your views and I had a few questions regarding it.  I said before, you remind me of my brother, so it is interesting to hear your views, whether they are correct or not.
#40
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@Benjamin
All humans would choose to accept Jesus if they got to experience hell even for a second. Therefore, God could save every single human by putting them in hell for one second, then pull them out and explain his gospel. All of them would understand God's just wrath as well as his love and mercy, and would freely choose to accept Jesus as their lord and saviour. So if God wanted it, hell would be empty. Or maybe God is too stupid to think of a simple solution like that. 
True.  God could also had just made everybody love him as soon as they are born instead of throwing them through this obstacle course called "life".  God could anything he wanted to start life and what he considered right or wrong, BUT we are given the word of God and a conscience and a commandment to obey, not question his ways since we are too stupid to figure it all out.  I'm not sure why God is blamed when we are so limited in our own understanding.

Again. You live in the rainforrest and you follow the chief. You defeat an enemy in war and proceed to eat them. You then pray to false gods and go to sleep. 

Are you saying that any of these people get into heaven?
I am saying that the Bible requires us to be born again.   Obviously the Amazonian tribes are not born again, especially just after the church started.  So if the new requirement for all the world is to be born again with Jesus, then no they would not enter heaven.  BUT Paul does preach on Mars hill about how people worshipped their own gods and that had "winked" at that, meaning allowed to a certain extent, or put up with.  So what is to say that those same tribes are not under the same kind of "winking" until they are presented with the gospel?  I don't think they would go to heaven per say like a true Christian, but I don't think they would go to hell for ignorance and God would make a way for them to choose him somehow.  I DON'T KNOW HOW. . .  All I am saying is that God has more ability than what we can dream up with and for us to try to put God in a box is ridiculous.  Again, since I am not an Amazonian tribesman, I am held to a greater standard to be born again since the word of God is preached so freely here and most of the known world.

#41
Tradesecret
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@Benjamin
I hold to the view that most people in the history of the world will go to heaven. This is the biblical idea. 
Matthew 7:13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."  JESUS HIMSELF DISAGREES WITH YOU. Secondly, we know for sure that the majority of current and historical people are neither christian nor jews. So according to your idea of heaven being more populated than hell, salvation is not restricted to those that worship the true God. 
Really. Do you know what the purpose of a prophecy is? Or do you know what a warning sign or a warning is for?  Everything Jesus said to the people was for a purpose. The purpose was to warn them to stop sinning and start doing the right thing. This is a warning - telling them that if they don't pull their socks up and change, they will head for the edge of the cliff.  It is not a FATALISTIC conclusion that cannot be changed. Anyone who has studied the bible will tell you to think about the Covenant. Blessings and cursing. 

God NEVER had anyone put to death who didn't deserve it. It was mostly for judgment and always lawful. God is the judge and he has jurisdiction over this planet. He can pull the cord whenever he likes with any person. The other thing is this. God has the power over death and is unlike you or me - able to give life back. 


You still need to get your head around the idea that God although the author of history is not the second cause.
Let us grant this claim, since you are unwilling to even adress my point about world history being REAL EVENTS WITH REAL PEOPLE, not just a fictional story God wrote. Even in your world, God is still a character in his own story. Humans interact with him, and he holds power in that story. God has written himself to be the biggest asshole in history. He is cannonically present at every rape scene, with every opportunity to prevent the rapes, but he choses to permit the crime. Even his own people, the jews and the christians, get raped -- despite God's claim that he is going to protect them. 
God is present everywhere at all times. He is Spirit. He also knows all things. God is also Trinity and yet he is ONE. The God we read about in the Bible is not the biggest monster in history. Yes, some perceive that. Others don't. I can't find any picture in the Bible about God that I despise or dislike. He doesn't do things the way I would do things. Yet, when I read the Bible, I see a God and a Holy God doing good things. He judges evil. He rewards those who want to do the right thing. He even sent himself - to do what we couldn't do. And he did that why? Because he didn't need to. 

God as the author of history is the first cause. Yet as his character in this history, he is the second cause. God in the second cause never causes anyone to rape or to murder. But he also doesn't jump in like superman saving everyone from evil on every occasion. God's claim of protection is not to stop people from suffering. It is to protect them from the evil one. 



The first cause has I suppose for want of a better word, immunity.  
Let me get this straight: 
  • You do not believe in free will, you believe that God is the author of history that includes our every action.
  • So it was God, not the rapist, that decided the rape should happen.
  • A person is forced to commit rape by God himself. 
  • The rapist is just a pawn in God's book.
  • ???
  • God is not responsible for the rape.
God is the author of history. Hence he is the first cause. 
God is also a character in his book along with everyone else. 
As characters, we are all second causes and responsible for our own actions as second causes. 
Rapists decided they would rape. God didn't decide they would rape. 
Rapists are not just pawns. They have minds that decide for themselves. 
God is not responsible for rape. He is never the second cause of such a thing. 

I think free will is a much-maligned term.  I like to use the term will but not free will. We all can make choices. We can all pretty much do whatever we want to do within reason. We can't do absurd things. But we have human nature. The bank robber walking out of the bank with a bag of money in one hand and a gun in the other sees the policeman on the other side of the road.  What ought he do?  What is the right thing to do? It is to see the policeman, realise his mistake, put down the gun and the money and hand himself in. But what will he do? What did his nature tell him to do? Either fight or flee.  This is how humans are with God. We have sinned and when come into the presence of a holy God, whether it just be a discussion like this or in church, or whatever, what do we do? We fight or we flee. What ought we do? Admit that we have sinned, lay down our weapons, and ask for forgiveness. But we will never do that. 

Our wills are enslaved to our human nature. This is what theologians call - original sin, total depravity, whatever.  You seem to be all caught up with blaming God for something - when the irony is - you are an atheist. You don't actually believe God did anything. Or can do anything. You are getting all riled up about God and yet he doesn't exist in your mind.  

Me, I call that human nature that you are dealing with.  Romans 1 tells us that EVERYONE knows that God exists. They just hold the truth down because to admit it - means that they have to admit their faults. And most people would prefer to run or fight.  You are fighting. And running at the same time. It's better for you think that God is the evil monster and therefore untrue than to recognise what your heart is telling you - and to stop fighting. In any event, I hope you have a great day. 
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#42
Benjamin
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@DavidAZZ
Okay, so we both agree that God could easily arrange for us all to go to heaven by our free will. If he does do that then it doesn't matter what happens here on earth. But if he doesn't do that it means that he wants some people to go to hell. And he probably wants to find out who to send there by looking at what happens here on earth.

By the way, if you believe that even heathen cannibals can go to heaven, how do you justify that anyone not named Hitler could go to hell?
#43
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@DavidAZZ
So are you going to start a another thread telling us how great, good, just, caring and loving god is?
  I already told you that I just wanted to see your views and others because I have never been told that God was "bad" and [I] had always been shown as good and just and such.

Ok. So can you show me "the good and just and such", about the biblical god ? 


  I've had atheists tell me that God doesn't exist but never that the God of the Bible was bad or corrupt. 

That is because  you haven't read the scriptures for yourself, you have even admitted  that you only "know what you have been told" and simply passed it on. The Reverend Tradesecret  has admitted the same. But he was stupid enough to deny he ever said that.... but I have the receipts. Funny how you both say the same things.

It was an interesting thread to say the least, but I didn't try to "prove" anything.  The thread was only so you could spout your views and I had a few questions regarding it.  I said before, you remind me of my brother, so it is interesting to hear your views, whether they are correct or not.
Yes, well, I call bullshite on that.
#44
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@Benjamin
Okay, so we both agree that God could easily arrange for us all to go to heaven by our free will. If he does do that then it doesn't matter what happens here on earth. But if he doesn't do that it means that he wants some people to go to hell. And he probably wants to find out who to send there by looking at what happens here on earth.
I don't think the whole idea of life on Earth was so he could cast people into hell.  The Bible mentions that that hell was created for the devil and his angels.  If they are trying to follow the devil and become his messenger, then they would choose hell, not God.

The whole idea was so he could have a bride in heaven, someone to willfully choose him over their own ideas or the pull of evil.  You really have a sad way of looking at things.

By the way, if you believe that even heathen cannibals can go to heaven, how do you justify that anyone not named Hitler could go to hell?
I didn't say that cannibal heathens go to heaven.  I said that my theory is if the heathens would follow the code given, then they would be rewarded somehow.  I did not say they would go to heaven.   I told you that I do not really know what will happen to them due to our conversation above, BUT I do know where you and I will go if we refuse his word.

Also keep in mind that God uses our conscience as a gauge also. Per the passage below, he will be able to guide them by their conscience some way, so I do not think the heathen or gentiles get off scott-free and go to heaven.  I would not know what the afterlife would bring for them, but I'm sure their conscience would tell them eating people is bad, just like you wouldn't people.

Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I do believe Hitler is in hell, but I also believe that people who constantly try to dismiss the word of God so they can try to look smarter than God with "what if" questions that nobody really knows the answer to, instead of actually following the Bible which will become real when followed, are in hell too.

#45
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@Stephen
Yes, well, I call bullshite on that.
On what?  That you remind me of my brother or that I wasn't trying to prove anything?

#46
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@DavidAZZ
So are you going to start a another thread telling us how great, good, just, caring and loving god is?
  I already told you that I just wanted to see your views and others because I have never been told that God was "bad"  ........
I know. And you created a thread - just for me - to find out my views.   You got my views and the views of others.
HERE >>>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9125-is-the-god-of-the-bible-good-or-wicked then you disappeared when the going got tough. 



........and [I] had always been shown as good and just and such.

Ok. So can you show me "the good and just and such", about the biblical god ? 


Yes, well, I call bullshite on that.
On what?   That you remind me of my brother or that I wasn't trying to prove anything?


Stop it!. 😂  You spent 95% of that thread arguing points of god and attempting to prove them to @ludofl3x, who effortlessly ran rings around you, and so you deserted it leaving many questions to go unanswered or addressed on posts to you from ludofl3x,. Here >> #186 & HERE> #187. It must have been killing you to remain somewhat constrained and polite, Reverend.😂

Off you go now.


#47
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@Benjamin
Tradesecret wrote @ Benjamin: 

God is present everywhere at all times. He is Spirit. He also knows all things.#41
Let us see. to highlight a few;

But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”

God asked Adam “Who told you that you were naked?” 

And the LORD asked Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Can I really bear a child when I am old?

And god asked him, why do you complain, Jacob?

It appears that God had a lot learn and know about his creation and was learning on the hoof,  but this has to be a blinder;

God aka Jesus on the cross calls out to himself,  Why have you forsaken me?


#48
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
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@Stephen
@Benjamin


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Benjamin,

I don't know about you, but Jesus and I are getting SO TIRED of Miss Tradesecret in making herself the continued #1 BIBLE STUPID FOOL of this Religion Forum in using her HEARSAY instead of actual biblical passages to support her otherwise weak assertions!  

MISS TRADESECRET'S QUOTE OF GOING DIRECTLY AGAINST JESUS' TRUE WORDS WHERE BABIES GO TO HELL UPON THEIR DEMISE: "There's a third option. 
Infants of believers go to Heaven as well."

With the Bible Dunce Miss Tradesecrets quote above, and barring her outright HEARSAY instead of Biblical verses inspired by Jesus, she is saying that JESUS LIED in the following two passages with His  direct LITERAL quotes  relative to who is going to heaven or not: 

1. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) 

2.  "But without faith it is impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:6 ) 

Therefore simply put, since infants  can’t come to Jesus as fully described in the passages above; nor can they please Jesus because they don't know they have "faith," they are not saved if they die before understanding these passages wholeheartedly. KEY WORDS where Jesus said: “no man”, which refers to MEN, woMEN and INFANTS in this case. 


Besides, think about it? Do TRUE Christians like myself, where Miss Tradesecret is a pseudo-christian at best and WILL NOT inherent the Kingdom of God,  really want a bunch of crying and diaper ridden infants in our glorious 1400 square mile heaven smelling up the place while TRUE Christians are trying to converse with Jesus about how much longer is it going to be for His Second Coming? NO, we do not! 


NEXT DUMBFOUNDED PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "MISS TRADESECRET" THAT USES "WANTING HEARSAY" INSTEAD OF ACTUAL BIBLICAL VERSES BY JESUS RELATIVE TO THIS TOPIC AT HAND, WILL BE ...?

.

#49
DavidAZZ
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@Stephen
You spent 95% of that thread arguing points of god and attempting to prove them to @ludofl3x, who effortlessly ran rings around you, and so you deserted it leaving many questions to go unanswered or addressed on posts to you from ludofl3x,
Okay, so I guess me asking and answering questions is the same thing as prove.  Bravo!  (slow claps) Cornered the hypocrite Christian in a word game.

As for Ludofl3x, that guy did run rings around me and asked me questions that I never even thought about.

As for questions unanswered, I do not know everything about God or the Bible and if I ever gave that vibe, I am foolish to do so.  I have been humbled by you and Ludofl3x by your out of box thinking.

That's why I am here, so thanks, in spite of your prickishness.

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@Stephen
Stephen,

I would say that if you are going to use these scriptures, at least admit what is rhetoric questions.  I would say 3 are rhetoric to get the other party to consider their thoughts or actions.  Others I couldn't tell you.

Let us see. to highlight a few;
But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”
God asked Adam “Who told you that you were naked?” 
And the LORD asked Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Can I really bear a child when I am old?
And god asked him, why do you complain, Jacob?
It appears that God had a lot learn and know about his creation and was learning on the hoof,  but this has to be a blinder;
God aka Jesus on the cross calls out to himself,  Why have you forsaken me?

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@DavidAZZ
As for questions unanswered, I do not know everything about God or the Bible 
I know you don't. I'd  go as far as to say you know absolutely nothing about either.

Yet  just on one thread alone in this religion forum you interpret for those reading what you believe god means and thinks in long detailed posts , such as HERE> #26 &HERE>#24 &HERE>#29&HERE> #30 &HERE#33 & HERE> #40 & HERE#44 while telling us that you "know everything about god or the bible"? 
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@Stephen
I can't give my opinion about extra biblical questions and have you jump down my throat.  While I claim a few times within those posts that I don't know and this is speculation, yet you still think I try to pose myself as some sort of know it all.  

Okay Stephen, what does happen to babies when they die?



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@DavidAZZ
I can't give my opinion about extra biblical questions and have you jump down my throat. 

You do understand  don't you that the questions being posed on that particular thread are bringing into question the thoughts and nature of god. The same god that you believe in , worship and support?



While I claim a few times within those posts that I don't know and this is speculation, yet you still think I try to pose myself as some sort of know it all. 

Not a " know it all" but rather pose yourself knowledgably on the thoughts and nature of god, Reverend.  See A below


Okay Stephen, what does happen to babies when they die?

A.   You have stated this; " But God can do anything    "as for a child who does not have the ability to choose or reject God, I would assume that would put them in a position that they could then choose to reject or accept him".  #21 <<<<You should read what you wrote very carefully there, Reverend.


With that said, what knowledge causes you to even "assume" that ^ above,   Reverend?  And,  doesn't the bible say what happens to all humans (including babies) when they die? 

This is what I have read, maybe you can interpret it for me without rewriting the actual biblical passage?

In flaming fire taking vengeance He [god] will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.








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As for Ludofl3x, that guy did run rings around me and asked me questions that I never even thought about.

Hey! That's ME! :)

For the record, I rarely think of it in terms of who gets the better of whom. I value the, to quote Major Partigaz, provocative exchange of ideas, particularly opposing ones, when spoken through rationally and thoughtfully. Wish there were more of that here, but most people seem to be doing some sort of schtick. 

I didn't say that cannibal heathens go to heaven.  I said that my theory is if the heathens would follow the code given, then they would be rewarded somehow.  I did not say they would go to heaven.   I told you that I do not really know what will happen to them due to our conversation above, BUT I do know where you and I will go if we refuse his word
Can I ask, what would your opinion be if you found out, on your entrance to heaven someday, that there aren't any cannibals in heaven? Or any aborignees, or asian folks? Or ancient Greeks or Egyptians? Wouldn't you think "Huh...that's odd." Maybe you ask St. Peter (I'm ex Catholic, I don't know if this is how protestants view the mechanics of heaven), "Hey man, why isn't Gandhi in here?" And St. Peter says, "Oh, that guy, yeah. Did a lot of good things for his people, I know, but missed one big one: didn't tell them to repent and accept Jesus, so, he's being....(Looks at heavenly iPad)...currently he's being roasted on a spit by some torture demons, he;ll be there for let's see....another ten thousand earth years, then it looks like he's scheduled for....yikes, that giant goat headed fire demon is going to sodomize him with his spiked flaming wang for at least another 20,000 years. So, I see here you're a Christian, nice work!" 

I used Gandhi because most people agree he was a net positive for the people in India, but it could be whoever you think it genuinely a decent person, but is demonstrably not a Christian. Would you, having had that exchange, think "That's justice, now where's my cloud mansion?" 
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You are riot! :)
Can I ask, what would your opinion be if you found out, on your entrance to heaven someday, that there aren't any cannibals in heaven?
If more people got into heaven, then I would be pleasantly surprised and ok by me.  I don't want people to go to an eternal place of fire or judgement.  That's not my idea of a good time.

If it were me to make the call, I would put quite a bit more people in heaven, like my grandmother and such.  But really depending on the day if I'm in a good or bad mood too because she was really a jerk to me when I was kid.

Would you, having had that exchange, think "That's justice, now where's my cloud mansion?" 
If that were the literal exchange, I think I would slink away from St Peter quickly before he changed his mind about me and dart in through the pearly gates and hide among other people.

On a more serious note, to answer the question, why are not just good ole' boys getting into heaven when they are not really that bad of a guy or in Gandhi's case, really helped a ton of humanity?

I will preface this again that I only have the Bible as a reference and I do not believe that the Bible contains ALL the words, thoughts, works of God that has ever been said, done, etc.  I only have my own life (and my friends and family that are in the same faith as I) to attest of how it worked for me.  

We don't know how God has dealt or called someone in their lifetime.  We sometimes find out when people are on their death bed telling us how they used to be in a church or was baptized or whatever.  It's not really something that someone talks about in the open.  My wife is an example of God working in her life to lead her unto Him.  So the Bible doesn't give every specific detail about how he will save a person or the road he will take a person down to bring them unto Himself.  

All that to say, God will draw one unto him and it is up to us to respond and in a culture that we have today where nearly everyone can read a bible (at least in 1st world countries), we do not have the excuse to say that we never heard of God, the Bible, etc.  We, as in mankind, are very stubborn and we do not like being told what to do or if we are wrong so we will push off the "voice" of God or a pull on our conscience.  So, in Gandhi's case, God has dealt with him one way or another and has probably ran into a real preacher to talk to him, maybe in passing, maybe a dinner meeting, who knows.  It could be like the Ethiopian eunuch's case where a preacher named Phillip was literally displaced supernaturally near this guy's chariot. (Acts chp 8)

That's how I can say that God will make a way for others to come to him if they truly want to know him and that "good people" that don't make it into heaven has rejected God somehow.


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@Stephen
You do understand  don't you that the questions being posed on that particular thread are bringing into question the thoughts and nature of god. The same god that you believe in , worship and support?
I do. And I do know that you see it entirely different than I do.  You think that God would let unsuspecting babies burn in a fiery pit forever since your view of God is a mean bastard.

 I would assume that would put them in a position that they could then choose to reject or accept him".  #21
I missed a word in that sentence. . . I would assume that HE(God) would put them . . .

This is what I have read, maybe you can interpret it for me without rewriting the actual biblical passage?
To answer your question, that is true that God will exact judgement on those who don't follow him.  If you don't follow someone, then you decide not to be led.  I would say the determining factor here is that a baby cannot choose.  SO, if God is just and loving and righteous, (stay with me here) wouldn't you think that he would come up with another option for those that are not in the same field as you and I.  We, you and I, have the ability to choose, to follow, to reject, to think He is good or to think He is corrupt and I think that scripture above would apply to you and I.  But when a child has no ability to do the things that we can, (much is given, much is required) how can God justly or righteously toss those into hell?

The break from Christian dogma is that there are anomalies in the Bible that don't follow the Christian trend of thought.  Such as:

Melchizedek who was a priest of God before the Mosaic law was even given.  How did he know everything to become a priest?  Bible doesn't tell us.
Enoch who was taken by God without a law to purify or the blood of Jesus to save.  How did he do that?  Bible doesn't tell us.
Abraham who was the friend of God, again without the law and blood of God.  In fact, the church is the seed of Abraham due to their faith, so God put a ton of emphasis on him without the blood of Christ.  
Elijah and him being brought to heaven in chariots of fire.  We can assume he was "saved" by this display of being taken.
King David who pleased God and even did priestly duties without being killed even though he was not a Levite.  A man after God's own heart, it was said.
People that Jesus had healed with a saying of "Thy sins be forgiven thee."  No blood, no sacrifice.
The thief on the cross who was being punished for some sort of trespass against society (sin) and God allowed him to be saved without any sacrifice or baptism. 

The point is that there is more going on in life and in the mind of God than what we can just come up with and we (humans) try our best to trap God on his word, or at least his followers.  So how can you say that what I am assuming could or could not happen and try to regulate God to only one scripture anyways?

So to close this post, I am not in any circumstance and neither is anybody on this website that we can tell God that he is unjust because we were given no chance to serve him, so for us to complain that God is unjust when we are not even in the predicament of an aboriginal man or an infant or anything else that we can't identify with, is foolish.  How do you know God doesn't work a way for an infant in death just like an aboriginal man in his isolated state of ignorance?





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I am not in any circumstance and neither is anybody on this website that we can tell God that he is unjust because we were given no chance to serve him,

Well then you have simply ignored the examples of unjustness and unfairness as set out above by Benjamin and others on this thread. I myself have raised the same examples on this forum many times in threads that I have created in the past.

so for us to complain that God is unjust when we are not even in the predicament of an aboriginal man or an infant or anything else that we can't identify with, is foolish. 
But we are human. And we can relate "to unfairness and unjustness". One doesn't need to know the individual to understand that god- according to the bible -  will punish " in flaming fire taking vengeance He [god] will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus". 


How do you know God doesn't work a way for an infant in death just like an aboriginal man in his isolated state of ignorance?

What evidence do you possess that proves that god makes exceptions when the BIBLICAL evidence proves god to have no time for those -including infants-  that do not accept Him as there lord/God? 
"Smashing the heads of infants against the rocks" leaps to mind as does the murder "every single first born of Egypt" and  not to leave alive " anything that breathes" in another instance. So we see that god isn't fussy at all when it comes to slaughter of those that are ignorant of Him.
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@DavidAZZ
Would you, having had that exchange, think "That's justice, now where's my cloud mansion?" 
If that were the literal exchange, I think I would slink away from St Peter quickly before he changed his mind about me and dart in through the pearly gates and hide among other people.
It's funny, I thought this exact same response as I was typing it. I'd try to mask my horror, the fact that I was thinking wow, that's fucked up, and tiptoe on my way past like "Cool, so these sky mansions, they have keys, or is it more like a smart lock thing...or....?"

I will preface this again that I only have the Bible as a reference and I do not believe that the Bible contains ALL the words, thoughts, works of God that has ever been said, done, etc.  I only have my own life (and my friends and family that are in the same faith as I) to attest of how it worked for me.  
I read the rest of your response, but it kind of seems to contradict this important part here: all every Christian has is just the bible, which, and I don't mean to presume you're one of these, but many, many many Christians believe to be the perfect word of god himself, and all laws in it are valid forever because they're his laws. And his laws clearly state, in the bible, there's only one way into heaven. That's to be a Jesus believing Christian. It's one of the things almost every Christian agrees on: heaven is for Christians. Not Jews. Not Muslims. Not Hindus. Certainly not atheists. Definitely no one who's avowed a faith that violates the first commandment. To say otherwise is evidence, in my view, that you're a better source of morality and justice than the character in the book itself, which again, is what many Christians purport the bible god to be: the source of morality and arbiter of justice. 

I don't know you beyond a few posts here, but I would guess you'd rather live next to a Ghandi than a known sexual predator, right? Unfortunately, according to the bible and to Jesus himself, Gandhi is out, didn't tick the box that says "Christian" on the application, and every child rapist who repented and accepted Jesus from their deathbed, they're in. Every Muslim mother who made food for her community food bank, who counseled young people to keep them out of trouble, who became a doctor and saved lives, they're in hell, but every knucklehead hooligan who beats up a gay kid, or a person who harasses a trans person who just wants to go to work, those people are doing the lord's work, because they can point to bible passages that say so definitively. I'm not saying you think these things as a person, to be clear, I'm saying that this is what Christian theology is, technically.