Something I noticed with Christians

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 66
Topic's author
#1
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
Me: So Christians; do you believe Jesus paid for everyone's sins?

Christians: Yes.

Me: So I automatically go to heaven?

Christians: Yes.

Me: So why do I have to be Christain?  I'm going to heaven no matter what.

Christians: You only go to heaven if you believe in God and Jesus.

Me: You believe in God and Jesus and you believe when you die, you will go to heaven?

Christians: Yes.

Me: And you believe living in heaven is unimaginably better than life here?

Christians: Yes.

Me: And Jesus paid for all of your sins, so because you believe in him, you get to go to heaven when you die (even if you commit a crime or sin as bad as murder)?

Christians: Yes.

Me: I (as an atheist) don't want you to do this, but what's stopping you from committing suicide?  You are going to heaven if you commit suicide because you would die.  If you believe suicide is a sin, Jesus paid for that sin, because according to you, he paid for all sins.

Christians: He only pays for repented sins.

Me: Hold on now.  Your god will forgive a murderer or a child rapist that genuinely repents before he dies, but he won't forgive a suicidal person that repents after death?  What about a genuine atheist that doesn't think there is a god and repents (but after death)?

This is the difference between being sheep smart and being lion smart; the person with sheep smarts repeats what they've heard (and their memory is good, but their critical thinking skills suck).  The lion smart person has more critical thinking; if the idea makes sense; then they accept it.  Otherwise, they try and figure out a rationale and moral response to it. 

If you believe a pre death repentant murderer deserves the right to heaven more than a post death repentant atheist, I do not like that morality at all and I fail to see how any critical thinker would disagree with me on at least that.

It's not pro-life, it's not pro law and order, it's not pro victimless liberty, and it's anti free thinking to believe a murderer should get treated better than an atheist simply because they repented.

But it's faith; and you can't challenge faith and expect people to change their minds no matter how good your argument is.
#2
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@TheUnderdog
This is the difference between being sheep smart 

I have yet to meet a smart sheep. But I have met many a extremely smart shepherd.
#3
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Lets say ya kidnappe 5 kids. 
Torture them to death
and then eat them . 

Wellllllll. 
When you die ,
You will " face "/  experience the same thing as the kids you eat.
Same as everyone  else.
From Everyyyyyyy religion . 
For Everyyyyyyy single person. 

What im trying to say is . 

Eating 5 kids in your life , has no effect on what happens after ya die. 
( i suspect ) 

Well it seems more ummmm , sensible that it " works " like that. 
Unfortunate sounding  yes. 

But its real real hard thinking that diffrent stuff happens to TREVOR when he dies , then what happens to RACHELLE. 

To the user.  
 
being buried after ya die is
EXACTLY THE SAME AS 
Being cremated. 


Now that doesn't sound right does it. 
Buttttt. 
But.
Ya have to think it works that way hey ? 
Anyway enough about death. 

Christians.  
What I've noticed with christians is. 
They dont ever say what type they are, 
You have to ask and push that point.  
Strange right? 
 
Its almost like " christians " believe theres only like 2 maybe 3 diffrent types of "Christians "  

Why there has to be more then ( one full dozen ) diffrent types of Christians.
Thats 12. 
12 diff type of Christian.  

Actually,  
Let me quickly google that .

Hey google. 
I fucking said. 
Hey mother fucken google. 

How many different types of Christians are there.  ?

Answer.  =     ( makes a total mockery of Christianity ) 
So lets say 100.       

Yes you heard correct.  
Thats ovef 100 diffrent types of Christians. 
Thats fucken crazy right. ? 
 Out of respect.    ( please do not type up the real approximate answer guys ) 

With 100 different types of Christians.  
It aint at all cool saying ,
( im a Christian ) ,  then stop talking. 

It feels like you guys want to avoid being a " specific " type. 
For You are just , Christian.
Yeah .
Your a Christian. 

If you dont elaborate. 
I get to choose what type of christian you are. 
I alwayssssss choose .  The Jehovah witness christians. 
Aka .
A Christian.  
Fair? 

Totally fair. 



I do however like the sound of 
There are currently.  
2 billion Christians. 
1 .8 billion  Muslims.  




Why you sly fucken dogs. 
Very well played "christians"   


To the " christians " 
One big old group.  


#4
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,636
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
I dont understand how someone who repents is just forgiven everything.

And how it only works before death, but not after death?

Like, whats the difference in repenting 5 minutes before death and 5 minutes after death?

Well, its a crazy idea that some sadistic murderer can just repent before death and go to heaven, while atheist who did nothing wrong except being an atheist goes to hell to burn.
#5
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea
I dont understand how someone who repents is just forgiven everything.

Mores the question, who does Jesus think he is that he can forgive someone else that has raped and murdered someone's daughter? 


And how it only works before death, but not after death?

[A]
Ah, well that is where it is commanded that you "have to" have faith and believe in Jesus before you meet him.



Like, whats the difference in repenting 5 minutes before death and 5 minutes after death?

See [A] above, BK


Well, its a crazy idea that some sadistic murderer can just repent before death and go to heaven, while atheist who did nothing wrong except being an atheist goes to hell to burn.
Them's the rules, BK.  All very fare and above board, don't you thinl?
#6
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,636
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Stephen
Mores the question, who does Jesus think he is that he can forgive someone else that has raped and murdered someone's daughter?
There is even worse.

Person cant enter heaven until he forgives the rapist.

Then must spend eternity in heaven with that rapist.

I mean, forgiveness is nice and everything, but if we are supposed to forgive everyone for everything, thats just difficult.

Some crimes are just hard to forgive.

And the idea that you must forgive or burn in hell?

Thats a bit crazy.
#7
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Mores the question, who does Jesus think he is that he can forgive someone else that has raped and murdered someone's daughter?
There is even worse.

Person cant enter heaven until he forgives the rapist.

Then must spend eternity in heaven with that rapist.

I mean, forgiveness is nice and everything, but if we are supposed to forgive everyone for everything, thats just difficult.

Some crimes are just hard to forgive.

And the idea that you must forgive or burn in hell?
Thats a bit crazy.
Its crazy because its all bullshit made up by Christians to get around the very questions they are asked about their bullshite.

They are always welcome to come along and defend their beliefs.

#8
IlDiavolo
IlDiavolo's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,511
3
2
5
IlDiavolo's avatar
IlDiavolo
3
2
5
I'm waiting for the "lion smarts" to come over and explain the unexplainable. Hahaha.
#9
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@TheUnderdog
Here, I'll be the Christian here and stop your argument where it messes up:

Me: So Christians; do you believe Jesus paid for everyone's sins?
Yes.

Me: So I automatically go to heaven?
If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and have true faith in him, then yes. 


Me: So why do I have to be Christain?  I'm going to heaven no matter what.
No, you aren't. You won't go to heaven (full relationship with God) if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and have true faith in him. 
The very definition of being a Christain, is accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and have true faith in him. 

Me: You believe in God and Jesus and you believe when you die, you will go to heaven?
Not simply just belief, but true faith as well, but yes, we do believe accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, whilst having true faith in him, will get you into heaven (full relationship with God).

Me: And you believe living in heaven is unimaginably better than life here?
Yes. Heaven (full relationship with God) is far better than Earth. 

Me: And Jesus paid for all of your sins, so because you believe in him, you get to go to heaven when you die (even if you commit a crime or sin as bad as murder)?
If you commit any sin, and you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have true faith in him, then yes you will go to heaven. 

Me: I (as an atheist) don't want you to do this, but what's stopping you from committing suicide?  You are going to heaven if you commit suicide because you would die.  If you believe suicide is a sin, Jesus paid for that sin, because according to you, he paid for all sins.
Suicide is ultimately selfish. It is a sin to commit suicide.
If you commit suicide, because of depression, worldly affects, and self-hatred, then I can't tell you if you will go to heaven or not, but I can assume that you won't. 
Now, if we use your mindset, and commit suicide because we know we will get a better life, that is self-serving, and it proves that you aren't really a Christian, because you just took your faith off of God and put it into yourself and your own plan to have a better life. 

Belief alone doesn't get you into heaven. Demons believe in Jesus. The Devil believes in Jesus. They don't get to go to heaven.  
So true faith in God's plan and word, belief in him, and accepting him as your Lord and Savior is what gets you into heaven.
Suicide is not part of Gods plan.

Therefore, if you commit suicide, then you are taking your faith out of Gods plan and word. 

Christians: He only pays for repented sins.
This is false. 

So, there you go. 
#10
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@YouFound_Lxam

[suicide] proves that you aren't really a Christian
This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. There are billions of christians, it's intelectually dishonest to make such a broad statement without any evidence.

you just took your faith off of God and put it into yourself and your own plan to have a better life. 
Nope - that is an absurd statement. You would literally be ending your life that you have control over, and putting your faith in God and his heaven.

So true faith in God's plan and word, belief in him, and accepting him as your Lord and Savior is what gets you into heaven.
If you have faith in God's plan that means you must logically believe that your suicide was predicted and that God did not want to prevent it, because if he wanted to he would have.  

Suicide is not part of Gods plan.
How do you know that? Biblically speaking, Gods plan so far has included countless genocides, famines, holy wars, infanticides, plagues, the slaughter of thousand of sentient animals, just to name a few. And that is only that which God did himself or divinely sanctioned. 

#11
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Benjamin
This is the no true Scotsman fallacy. There are billions of christians, it's intelectually dishonest to make such a broad statement without any evidence.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said proof, I should have said we can assume. 

Nope - that is an absurd statement. You would literally be ending your life that you have control over, and putting your faith in God and his heaven.
Nope. You would be putting faith in your action (suicide) to get you to heaven because you can't get to heaven unless you are dead. 
So, you would be putting your faith in yourself to make a decision to get you to heaven, that doesn't align with Gods plan. 

If you have faith in God's plan that means you must logically believe that your suicide was predicted and that God did not want to prevent it, because if he wanted to he would have.  

Suicide is not part of Gods plan in anyone's life, because God came to bring life, not death. 
God doesn't prevent sins, or bad deeds because he wants to, because that would take away free will. 

How do you know that? Biblically speaking,
Jeremiah 29:11
" For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."


#12
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Nope. You would be putting faith in your action (suicide) to get you to heaven because you can't get to heaven unless you are dead. 
Suicide is not the key to heaven, Jesus is. Suicide is simply to run towards the door because you cannot bear the cold outside. You still must have faith than upon reaching the door the key will work and you will get warm inside. All this decision requires is that you don't believe that suicide automatically destorys the key. 


Suicide is not part of Gods plan in anyone's life, because God came to bring life, not death. 
Hundreds of genocides, plagues, famines, animal sacrifices and infanticides have been part of Gods plan - according to the Bible itself. God brings life AND death, read your Bible.


God doesn't prevent sins, or bad deeds because he wants to, because that would take away free will. 
If Christians get to heaven despite all of their sin, but suicide automatically sends you to hell, then that fact sure seems like something really important to write in the Bible.


Jeremiah 29:11
" For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
This is taken completely out of context. God is not here adressing all humans or even all Christians. This is cherry picking. Find a verse that actually adresses suicide. Also, if this was actually adressed to suicidal people, then it would be a freaking lie. The fact that they take their life is proof that they didn't prosper, but were in fact harmed - if not by God then by the world he created and refused to protect them from because of a vague idea of "free will" or some shit. He didn't even inform them of the ticket straight to hell that suicide suposedly gives you. Does that sound like a God that really cares about people commiting suicide?

#13
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Benjamin
@YouFound_Lxam

YouFound_Lxam
Jeremiah 29:11
" For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Benjamin
This is taken completely out of context. God is not here adressing all humans or even all Christians. This is cherry picking. Find a verse that actually adresses suicide. Also, if this was actually adressed to suicidal people, then it would be a freaking lie. The fact that they take their life is proof that they didn't prosper, but were in fact harmed - if not by God then by the world he created and refused to protect them from because of a vague idea of "free will" or some shit. He didn't even inform them of the ticket straight to hell that suicide suposedly gives you. Does that sound like a God that really cares about people commiting suicide?


I assume YouFound_Lxam has never heard of the mass suicide at Messada where  960 Jews  self sacrificed their lives. Jesus after all, came to save only them.

Matthew 15:24  New International Version


24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

#14
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@TheUnderdog
A lot of "christians" are just as atheist as others.

Aside from that you'll get what they think on subjects. 
Granted that you take the position that none of what they say is true, it certainly isn't biblically true.
#15
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Best.Korea
Doesn't seem like you can be as merciful as God.
#16
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Benjamin
Do you believe or is it your understanding that Christ died for everyone?
#17
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Is it your understanding that to go to heaven, all one has to do is have faith in Christ Jesus?
#18
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,636
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Mall
Doesn't seem like you can be as merciful as God.
Well, God burns atheists, so I would say that his mercy isnt that good either.

Do you think that atheists will go to hell?

#19
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Benjamin
Suicide is not the key to heaven, Jesus is. Suicide is simply to run towards the door because you cannot bear the cold outside. You still must have faith than upon reaching the door the key will work and you will get warm inside. All this decision requires is that you don't believe that suicide automatically destorys the key. 
Suicide is literally putting faith in an action, you commit, in order to get to heaven.
Your Salvation doesn't depend on it, but the Bible says God has a divine plan and a purpose for your life, not for your death. 
It says this in Proverbs 16:4.

Hundreds of genocides, plagues, famines, animal sacrifices and infanticides have been part of Gods plan - according to the Bible itself. God brings life AND death, read your Bible.
Genocides? Name me one in the Bible, that God commands.
Plagues? Yes.
Famines? Yes.
Animal Sacrifices? Yes. 
Infanticides? Name me one in the Bible, that God commands.

But even if they were all true, that doesn't address the claim I am making. I am saying suicide is not part of Gods plan for someone's life. 

If Christians get to heaven despite all of their sin, but suicide automatically sends you to hell, then that fact sure seems like something really important to write in the Bible.
If I made the explicit claim, that all people that commit suicide are going to hell, I apologize. 
Thats not where I stand.

I am simply saying that it is un-biblical to commit suicide for the purpose of getting to heaven. 
Just like it would be unbiblical for a Christian to try and trick the system and live a life of sin on purpose and then at the end of this life, ask for forgiveness just so that he could get into heaven. 

This is taken completely out of context. God is not here adressing all humans or even all Christians. This is cherry picking. Find a verse that actually adresses suicide. Also, if this was actually adressed to suicidal people, then it would be a freaking lie.
1. This is not taken out of context. The context is:
"This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8 Yes, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them,” declares the Lord.
10 This is what the Lord says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. [b] I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”"
We can see that the Lord is talking to a specific people group. But this doesn't mean we can't apply this to our own lives as Christians covered by Christs blood. 

Also, if you want other verses, look to:
Proverbs 16:4
Psalms 57:2
Proverbs 19:21
Ephesians 1:11
Romans 8:28

And there are many more like these. 

The fact that they take their life is proof that they didn't prosper, but were in fact harmed - if not by God then by the world he created and refused to protect them from because of a vague idea of "free will" or some shit.
Well according to the host of this forum, he is addressing people who have the idea that suicide is a free quick ticket to heaven. 
I am addressing that idea, not the idea of suicide in general. 

#20
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Mall
Is it your understanding that to go to heaven, all one has to do is have faith in Christ Jesus?
You must:
Believe God is real.
Accept Jesus Christ as the New Covenant and as your Lord and Savior.
Have true Faith in Christ, in order to live the life, you were called to live according to his purpose.

#21
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Is that it?
#22
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Best.Korea
I'm referring to the mercy of forgiving sins, even what you see subjectively as the worst of sins.

Do I think atheists will go to hell?

According to scriptures, yes.
#23
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,167
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
" sheep smarts repeats what they've heard " 90% of all people on the planet.
#24
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Genocides? Name me one in the Bible, that God commands.
Infanticides? Name me one in the Bible, that God commands.
"Go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Don't leave a thing; kill all the men, women, children, and babies;" 1 Samuel 15.3.

Also:
  • God killed all the firstborn in Egypt
  • God killed everyone on earth except for Noah
  • God destroyed Sodoma and Gamorah
  • God ordered the genocide of Jerico and a hundred other cities in the book of Joshua
  • God led foreign kingdoms to invade and genocide on Israeli soil 
  • GOD DID NOT PROTECT HIS PEOPLE FROM THE HOLOCAUST; so that had to be part of his plan aswell. 


I am simply saying that it is un-biblical to commit suicide for the purpose of getting to heaven. 
My point is that a christian is going to heaven regardles of suicide or not. Therfore, they are not commiting suicide in order to get to heaven, they are taking suicide to escape life on earth. They would rather exist in the void for some decades before going to heaven than spend some more decades here on earth. You have not yet substanciated why people that would do this are automatically not real christians. 
Topic's author
#25
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and have true faith in him, then yes. 
I don't believe I will ever have true faith in anything in the afterlife.  What if you are wrong?  What if there is nothing?  It's a gamble.  The next time you think you have faith in God, if there is a plane on fire that you are on and it's very high up in the sky, celebrate, because according to you, you are about to go to heaven.

Nobody on a burning plane 4 kilometers up in the air is celebrating that they will soon go to heaven.  They may pray as insurance, but doing that isn't having faith.

Now, if we use your mindset, and commit suicide because we know we will get a better life, that is self-serving, and it proves that you aren't really a Christian, because you just took your faith off of God and put it into yourself and your own plan to have a better life. 
But I would be having faith that I get to go to heaven.  God's looking out for me, isn't he?

Suicide is not part of Gods plan.
You don't know what God's plan is.  His plan could have had me commit suicide, maybe caused some people to be sad, have them get tougher skins, and be better people because of it.

The Holocaust was part of God's plan if God is all knowing and all powerful and he exists.  If it wasn't, then the Holocaust wouldn't have happened.

Christians: He only pays for repented sins.
This is false. 
Then what sins does God pay for?
#26
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and have true faith in him, then yes. 
I don't believe I will ever have true faith in anything in the afterlife.  What if you are wrong?  What if there is nothing?  It's a gamble.  The next time you think you have faith in God, if there is a plane on fire that you are on and it's very high up in the sky, celebrate, because according to you, you are about to go to heaven.
Christianity is not about having faith, true or otherwise in the afterlife. It is about having faith in the historical fact that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. 

Nobody on a burning plane 4 kilometers up in the air is celebrating that they will soon go to heaven.  They may pray as insurance, but doing that isn't having faith.
Interesting thought. Yet, for some people who pray it will be in faith and for others it won't be. People in that situation don't generally celebrate that they are going to heaven. And yet some might. There are many stories of people who were about to die on the Titanic who did very much celebrate that they were going to their maker. Many others didn't of course. 

Now, if we use your mindset, and commit suicide because we know we will get a better life, that is self-serving, and it proves that you aren't really a Christian, because you just took your faith off of God and put it into yourself and your own plan to have a better life. 
But I would be having faith that I get to go to heaven.  God's looking out for me, isn't he?
I wouldn't suggest that suicide proves you are not a Christian. I don't agree with that at all. It doesn't prove you are either. But suicide is not the unforgiveable sin.  I must say that you have the most warped view of Christianity and what you think God is about. 

Suicide is not part of Gods plan.
You don't know what God's plan is.  His plan could have had me commit suicide, maybe caused some people to be sad, have them get tougher skins, and be better people because of it.

The Holocaust was part of God's plan if God is all knowing and all powerful and he exists.  If it wasn't, then the Holocaust wouldn't have happened.
I don't think God wants people to commit suicide. I am pretty sure the Bible is opposed to unlawful killing. As for God's plan, or his Will, I think those are two completely different things.  It may well end up being that you commit suicide. If so, then that was God's plan for your life. But it certainly is not his will. His will is that you turn to Jesus and find redemption so that you can enjoy life in Christ. So your example about the holocaust is correct in that it was God's plan. But it still wasn't his will. His will is that people treat each other correctly and love one another will killing each other unlawfully. 

Christians: He only pays for repented sins.
This is false. 
Then what sins does God pay for?
As a Calvinist, we say God pays for the sins of the Elect. The Elect are those who trust in Jesus.  Your question will be - what if I am not one of them? And I would say - well make sure you are. It would be a gamble not to try and make sure you are part of his family. It would be a gamble to trust in yourself. It would be a gamble to think it doesn't matter. Yet it would be reasonable to trust in Jesus for he is the king of kings and he is God.  It would be a gamble not to trust in God. 



#27
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Best.Korea
 I don't understand how someone who repents is just forgiven everything.
Well, it is for the spiritual to know. Not everyone is meant to know. That's what Jesus says in Matthew 13:11. 

And how it only works before death, but not after death?
I don't know about you, but mostly when people die, they can't do anything. They live historically, you know, before death. And then they die.  In other words, while you live, you get to talk and decide things, and then the door shuts BECAUSE you are dead.  "And you being a great religious leader don't know these earthly things, how will you understand when we talk of heavenly things."  


Like, whats the difference in repenting 5 minutes before death and 5 minutes after death?
I suggest about 10 minutes.  5 before plus 5 after = 10.   Oh wait. Like you are DEAD. and DEAD people can't talk. 


Well, its a crazy idea that some sadistic murderer can just repent before death and go to heaven, while atheist who did nothing wrong except being an atheist goes to hell to burn
Crazy or outright beautiful. An atheist doesn't want to go to heaven to spend eternity with the imaginary unicorn. There is no way they could stand being embarrassed for the rest of the eternity every time God reminds him of how STUPID he was here on earth.  The Atheist would prefer to be in Hell. Do the crime, do the time. That's what they all say.  And if a sadistic murderer repents - which means turns his life around, admits he did the wrong thing and never stuffs up again, then that is a good thing in my books. The thing to remember however is this.  It IS NOT repentance that gets you into heaven. It is the GRACE and MERCY of God. Repentance doesn't guarantee you entrance to Heaven. What guarantees entrance is God's character. And let's face it, if you think God's character is evil and malicious, then you'll never get into heaven. And more than that - you wouldn't want to be there anyway. You'd prefer a hot seat in the other place. It would be just another form of torture. 

Topic's author
#28
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Tradesecret
People in that situation don't generally celebrate that they are going to heaven. And yet some might.
It is incredibly unlikely that a random person, no matter how religious they think they are, would celebrate if they knew their plane was going to crash and they were going to die.

But suicide is not the unforgiveable sin.
So it's forgivable then, meaning I can kill myself and if Jesus paid for my sin, I get to go to heaven?

I don't think God wants people to commit suicide. I am pretty sure the Bible is opposed to unlawful killing.
The bible is against murder.  But murdering someone is worse than suicide.  If God would forgive a repentant murderer, then he easily should forgive someone that committed suicide.

 It may well end up being that you commit suicide. If so, then that was God's plan for your life. But it certainly is not his will.
How can something be in God's plan and not his will?

 It would be a gamble not to try and make sure you are part of his family. It would be a gamble to trust in yourself. It would be a gamble to think it doesn't matter. Yet it would be reasonable to trust in Jesus for he is the king of kings and he is God.  It would be a gamble not to trust in God. 
It would also be a gamble to not put my trust in Hades that he will spare me from the underworld and so I can join Zeus at Olympia, or take a gamble and sacrifice myself (or commit suicide) so I don't end up in Xibalba.
#29
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
People in that situation don't generally celebrate that they are going to heaven. And yet some might.
It is incredibly unlikely that a random person, no matter how religious they think they are, would celebrate if they knew their plane was going to crash and they were going to die.
If people know they are going to die in a plane crash, there are going to be lots of different responses. That's what happened on the Titanic. And it has happened in lots of other examples of impending tragedy as well.  It is not incredibly unlikely for many people. And celebration is going to look differently in each situation. I doubt that many will pick up a glass of champagne. But some will be incredibly calm. And this is true. Others who have no clue will obviously be freaking out. 

But suicide is not the unforgiveable sin.
So it's forgivable then, meaning I can kill myself and if Jesus paid for my sin, I get to go to heaven?
Suicide is not the unforgivable sin. But therein lies the rub.  Rejecting Christ is the unforgivable sin. If you commit suicide and also reject Christ, then you won't be forgiven. It's that simple. If however you are in a relationship with Christ, you won't want to commit suicide.  A person who is in a relationship with Christ has already had their sins forgiven, past, present, and future. Yet if you have rejected Christ, you actually stop yourself from the possibility of forgiveness if you kill yourself before you repent.  If Jesus has died for you, your sins are forgiven. But how do you know that? Killing yourself in suicide is generally an indication that you haven't got yourself right with God. There are exceptions of course. Mental health can be an exception for Christians. 

I don't think God wants people to commit suicide. I am pretty sure the Bible is opposed to unlawful killing.
The bible is against murder.  But murdering someone is worse than suicide.  If God would forgive a repentant murderer, then he easily should forgive someone that committed suicide.
I don't know if murdering someone is worse that suicide. Every death has implications and people left behind. Every death is ugly. Even the calm pleasant ones. Death reminds us of sin. And if it doesn't then we have a spiritual problem.  God doesn't have to forgive anyone. It's not like we have some kind of magic wand that makes God do something. That is to reduce God to less than man. 

 It may well end up being that you commit suicide. If so, then that was God's plan for your life. But it certainly is not his will.
How can something be in God's plan and not his will?
I explained that above. First and Second Causes.  Everything that happens MUST happen because it is God's plan. Yet that doesn't mean that everything that happens is God's will.  God's will is revealed in the Scriptures. And I am talking about his moral will. He is opposed to murder and he is opposed to suicide. In other words, if you commit these things it is against his moral will and therefore sinful.  We don't know what God's plans are - they are hidden for the most part save and except as we look back at history. It is foolish in my mind to be wondering what his plan is except that he is a good and holy God.  And that if suicide forms part of that - then there must have been a purpose behind that which we MAY NEVER EVER know. Understanding that God has this good and holy plan is a means of bringing comfort to many who suffer the loss of people who kill themselves or the bad and tragic things that happen in life. It is not for us to ask why these things happen, but rather to know the one who does know the why.  Yet, we are not to presume we know God's plans, but to live according to his will, his moral will as described in the Scriptures. He does command us not to kill unlawfully. And not to rape and not to commit adultery or to steal or to bear false witness. There are many things that describe his visible and laid out moral will. 


 It would be a gamble not to try and make sure you are part of his family. It would be a gamble to trust in yourself. It would be a gamble to think it doesn't matter. Yet it would be reasonable to trust in Jesus for he is the king of kings and he is God.  It would be a gamble not to trust in God. 
It would also be a gamble to not put my trust in Hades that he will spare me from the underworld and so I can join Zeus at Olympia, or take a gamble and sacrifice myself (or commit suicide) so I don't end up in Xibalba.
It would actually be a gamble to put your trust in Hades. No one has ever historically tried to find Hades, or Zeus for that matter. No one thinks that they historically lived. Facts are important. that is why I trust Jesus. Facts are important. 


#30
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@TheUnderdog
Tradescret wrote: @TheUnderdog

As for God's plan, or his Will, I think those are two completely different things.  It may well end up being that you commit suicide. If so, then that was God's plan for your life. But it certainly is not his will. His will is that you turn to Jesus and find redemption so that you can enjoy life in Christ. So your example about the holocaust is correct in that it was God's plan. But it still wasn't his will.
Convoluted BS that makes no sense at all?  Let's see.

"they will be done". 🤔

 If the the holocaust was gods plan, then he must have "willed" it to be so.

Psalm 33:11
The plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of His heart through all generations.

So "the plan"  is unmoveable and stands firm.