there's an element of "i want to believe"
I wouldn't be surprised if an iterant Jewish rabbi with a devoted following was crucified around 33CE. I wouldnt be surprised if people made supernatural claims about him. That happens today with modern figures. Supernatural claims, from any time period, I do not believe.To answer specific questions, people die for things they believe. Sometimes those beliefs have no basis in reality. I see no reason why deaths of the earliest followers of Jesus are different or special in that regard.
I don't have any strong opinions on Paul, but I have found seizure to be a compelling explanation of his Demascus road experience.
I don't tend to think the early followers of Jesus were 'lying'. Someone might have told a lie, but for the most part I accept they believed their testimony. I just don't believe their testimony, at least, not the supernatural parts. I see no good reason why it should be accepted at face value.
I don't tend to think the early followers of Jesus were 'lying'. Someone might have told a lie, but for the most part I accept they believed their testimony. I just don't believe their testimony, at least, not the supernatural parts. I see no good reason why it should be accepted at face value.you haven't pin pointed a good motive in why they would lie about supernatural claims. i can understand being a skeptic, but you just choose to assume they are lying. again, their first hand testimony and willingness to die for their faith is compelling. and the historicans who called jesus a magician
historians from antiquity sometimes referred to jesus as a magician
someone who is willing to die for their faith, it bolsters what they say. i understand people die for their faith all the time, and some of those faiths are untrue.. but it's still indiciative of soemthing when someone dies for their faith.
it seems far fetched that someone would happen to have a seizure when as far as we can tell, they were otherwise healthy, that just happens to lead to him being a central figure in the worlds most dominate religion.
you haven't pin pointed a good motive in why they would lie about supernatural claims.
their first hand testimony and willingness to die for their faith is compelling.
This one is actually possible.Just let man jerk off and then take his semen and push it in your vagina.You will be virgin because dick didnt enter your vagina, only semen did.
You know what modern historians don't attribute to historical figures? Magic. There's a good reason for that.
someone who is willing to die for their faith, it bolsters what they say. i understand people die for their faith all the time, and some of those faiths are untrue.. but it's still indiciative of soemthing when someone dies for their faith.This is incoherent. You're agreeing with me AND suggesting dying for your beliefs points to factuality. You can't have it both ways.Clearly, death for beliefs has absolutely no relevance to the truth of those beliefs. There are countless examples of people dying for beliefs that we know to be absolutely bogus. (Heavensgate, Jonestown, etc.)
it seems far fetched that someone would happen to have a seizure when as far as we can tell, they were otherwise healthy, that just happens to lead to him being a central figure in the worlds most dominate religion.I don't think so. A seizure would explain the vision, the blindness, and the change of heart afterwards. It's certainly more plausible than the alternative.
you haven't pin pointed a good motive in why they would lie about supernatural claims.I think maybe you didn't understand what I said. I didn't claim early believers were generally lying about Jesus. I said the opposite - early followers believed their testimony. That's not to say their testimony accurately reflected reality. Add to that legendary accretion as time passes and Jesus becomes more and more extraordinary. Again, we can see this occuring with modern figures. Who knows, in a thousand years, Elvis or Dwayne Johnson might be considered a deity.
their first hand testimony and willingness to die for their faith is compelling.FYI, legendary accretion also applies to the apostles. The martyrdom of the apostles is a church tradition. There are multiple (and contradictory) martyrdom stories for some of the apostles - different churches have different death stories for their apostolic heroes.Furthermore, the gospels are not thought, at least not by critical scholars, to be eye-witness accounts. That is another 'church tradition' with questionable relation to reality.
that looks like a deflection. ancient historicans did refer to him as a magician. whether or not modern historicians would seriously entertain magic is irrelevant. you can choose to ignore what ancient historians said, but at least state that you are choosing ignoring it.
I would say you're an uneducated person
I have three honors degrees in engineering and science from competitive schools. Not just in formal education but otherwise I'm way over educated. The fact you think that makes me think that u r the uneducated one. Not calling myself genius, but there's a saying that genius mother Fuckers look like dumb mother Fuckers to people who r themselves dumb mother fuckers.
I think the passage in the gospels u r referring to is where a man was performing miracles in Jesus's name but wasn't following the apostles. Jesus said who ain't against him is for him and not to worry about the guy. My guess is you r mistaken
it looks like a lot of what we think we know about jesus might not be reliable.
it looks like a lot of what we think we know about jesus might not be reliable.Well is all one has to do is remove what are referred to as "miracles" and replace them with initiations, and a different story begins to appear almost immediately.Let me see if I can make this as simple as possible for you. Example:Raising the "dead".Anyone outside of the Jesus movement are referred to as ' The Dead' while those that have been initiated into the Jesus movement call themselves 'The Living'To belong to this movement one has be raised from among The Dead.The evidence for my claim comes from the bible its self.With this in mind, see if you can answer this question for yourself with no prompting from me or anyone else.One of Jesus' disciples asks him for the day off to "bury his father", what is Jesus' reply?I think Jesus replied let the dead bury the dead. What is your point?
Jesus followers performed miracles in Jesus name. Even Jesus said that would and should happen. I think u r confused again
it was just a figure of speech. jesus' point was that when someone dies, you have to move on with life, you can't dwell on the past. it's excellent wisdom.
that looks like a deflection. ancient historicans did refer to him as a magician.
if someone is willing to die for their faith, they probably have a good reason for why they'd make that sacrifice
and the part you didn't quote which is a stronger point, is that the apostles had first hand witness to the events, not just stupid fanatics who die for a random belief.
people generally dont make mistakes in that nature that cost their lives
do you think the willingness to die due their first hand accounts have anything to do with church tradition?
was jesus a cult leader
most people aren't stupid enough to fall for cult hucksters,
it isn't likely that histroicans would record the cult leader as a historical figure and record the deeds the cult leader are said to have performed.
were other false messiahs recorded by historicans?
History records plenty of people who've claimed to be Jesus or the Christ.
why even write it down?
