what do skeptics think really happened with Jesus and his followers?

Author: n8nrgim

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the consensus of historicans is that jesus existed. his apostles are recorded to have spread the faith and to have died for their faith. historicans have record of when jesus' brother was martyred, the local communities were aghast. st paul one of the leading writers of the bible, is a historical fact that he existed and spread the faith, and to have then died for it. he said he had a vision of jesus at his conversion. 

so what do skeptics think happened? if you dont think jesus existed, why do you deny scholar consensus? why do you think the apostles died for their faith? i know it doesn't prove the things they said were true, but why do you think they died for it? do you think st paul was a schizophrenic who happened to otherwise be sane, and to become of the leading figures of christainity? were the apostles and st paul deluded, was it a conspiracy of group delusion? why would they lie if they weren't deluded? does trying to rationalize and minimize the historical nature of all this stuff seem prudent, when there's the possibility that they weren't just deluded? 
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Fuck them all.

Lex talionis!

Reggie Satanas!
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@n8nrgim
what do skeptics think really happened with Jesus and his followers?

Many deserted him- Jesus- well before the time of his arrest. Some deserted him at the time of his arrest and others were captured after his arrest and put to death.

If one believes the NT and accepts recoded history then there is no scepticism at play as the bible itself attest to this and history attest to the missing parts. 


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@n8nrgim

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@n8nrgim

Because we have smartphones now, you never see God talking from a burning bush.
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I wouldn't even begin to speculate what happened 2000 years ago. The written word changes all the time. The history I learned in school in no way resembles what my children were taught.
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@sadolite
The history I learned in school in no way resembles what my children were taught
Sometimes history needs to be changed to suit today's goals.

Also, different people write down history differently. Not even the gospels of Jesus are same. Some were too different, had to be excluded.
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@n8nrgim
so what do skeptics think happened?
The entire point of skepticism is to withhold belief in any particular conclusion until such time as the evidence for it warrants belief.

do you think st paul was a schizophrenic who happened to otherwise be sane, and to become of the leading figures of christainity? were the apostles and st paul deluded, was it a conspiracy of group delusion? why would they lie if they weren't deluded? does trying to rationalize and minimize the historical nature of all this stuff seem prudent, when there's the possibility that they weren't just deluded?
It's not a matter of rationalizing. The fact is that any one of the reasons listed above is far more plausible than the notion that they died because they were following a man who rose from the dead as a messanger of an omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent being.

As a skeptic myself I'm not pretending to have the answers, none of us have access to these individuals beyond words in a 2,000 year old book. What I do have is Occam's razor, and that points us in a very clear direction.
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@Double_R
What I do have is Occam's razor
Who is Occam and why do you have his razor? Thats weird.

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@Double_R
it looks like there must be something to this Jesus story, and the following events with his followers. but you assume the christian version is far fetched, so you choose not to worry about the fact that it looks like there's something to it. that's rationalizing. 
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From my reference in #4

 Jesus – The Imaginary Friend
Christianity was the ultimate product of religious syncretism in the ancient world. Its emergence owed nothing to a holy carpenter. There were many Jesuses but the fable was a cultural construct.
The nativity yarn is a concatenation of nonsense. The genealogies of Jesus, both Matthew's version and Luke's, are pious fiction. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs.
With multiple authors behind the original gospel story it is no surprise that the figure of "Jesus" is a mess of contradictions. Yet the story is so thinly drawn that being a "good Christian" might mean almost anything.
The 12 disciples are as fictitious as their master, invented to legitimise the claims of the early churches. The original Mary was not a virgin, that idea was borrowed from pagan goddesses. The pagan world knew all about virgins getting pregnant by randy gods: The Mythical "Virgin Mother".
Scholars have known all this for more than 200 years but priestcraft is a highly profitable business and finances an industry of deceit to keep the show on the road.
"Jesus better documented than any other ancient figure"? Don't believe a word of it. Unlike the mythical Jesus, a real historical figure like Julius Caesar has a mass of mutually supporting evidence.
The case for a mythical Jesus – Nailing Jesus. Book review: Ehrman - Did Jesus Exist? Popular scholar recoils from the abyss. A rescue mission for the "Jesus of history" – The New Apologists
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@n8nrgim
Historians also agree that the biography of Jesus that modern Christians hold as true was an amalgamation of literally hundreds of radically different, incredibly diverse biographies of Jesus written by hundreds of different authors, almost all claiming to an eye-witness account by an apostle.  The council of Nicea met in 325AD and decided which parts of which testimonies were gospel and declared the other 99% of testimony heresy.  Historians agree that Constantine's motives were not particularly Christian or even religious but polticial, choosing the favorite version of the rich and powerful, most particularly the favorite versions of his mother, Helena.  No single individual had more influence about the story of Jesus as told in the Bible than St. Helena and we owe much of our modern ideas of a virgin mother, the trinity, the transmutation of blood to wine, etc to that women's particular prejudices.  After 325AD, most of the hundreds of eye-witness testimonies of Jesus were hunted down and destroyed to make certain the Roman Emperor's version of Jesus was the version that you believe in.
The most contemporary Jewish historian, Josephus, writing 60 to 80 years later, had little information about who Jesus was or what he believed and certainly did not seem to have ever heard that he was supposed have risen from the dead   Josephus does write of Paul and Peter and Jesus' younger brother James and how the violence between them contributed to the overall violence that ended with Masada, the destruction of the Second Temple and the beginning of the end of Judaism in ancient Palestine.  The main issue between them was that Paul had invented something called Christianity and believed that the Sermon on the Mount was a message to be shared across the Roman Empire with non-Jews and foreigners and even women.  James apparently believed that his brother Jesus was first and formost a Jew and a Rabbi and a Prophet and that to follow Jesus you firstly had to be a Jew in good standing.
I think an intelligent reading of the New Testament reveals that there was more than one man preaching the forgiveness of a loving god and the promise of eternal life in and around Palestine during the reign of Augustus Caesar.  John the Baptist was an early, super popular version of this figure and his execution by Herod served as a kind of model.  The Jesus who came from Egypt is almost certainly different from the Jesus from Bethlehem and the Jesus from Nazareth.  Jesus the Rabbi is almost certainly a different historical man than Jesus the Carpenter and Jesus the Fisherman and Jesus the Zoroastian wizard.  Which of these said what or performed which acts, which of these were executed by Jewish Councils or Roman Governors is unknowable but these governments were putting a lot of rebels and preachers to death in this time.
Christianity does not seem to be the message or intent of Jesus, who barely ever spoke of founding some new religion, but of Paul, an eloquent charasmatic philosopher at the center of Roman Greek and Jewish society who understood what sort of Church and belief system was wanted and would satisfy the popular imagination.  Chrisianity should be Paulism because Paul invented the religion, not Jesus.
Rather than ask why the apostles behaved  as they did if there were no Christ, this sober historian asks why anybody believes the narrative of those figures told by a
Roman Emperor more than three centuries later, particular when that Emperor had so little faith in the truth of his narrative that he felt the need to supress and
destroy all of the hundreds of alternative accounts that bore witness to a remarkable change in the philophy of the Near East, even while disagreeing utterly about the biographical facts surrounding the central figures of that change.


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@n8nrgim
Sceptics actually don't have much of a think about this at all. Hence why no one genuinely cares. I appreciate you are attempting to start a dialogue. Good luck with that. 
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@n8nrgim
it looks like there must be something to this Jesus story/

I have no reason to believe Jesus did not exist.

Jesus was a JEW . A man that  believed or was led to believe that he was rightful king and heir to the throne of Jerusalem. Others though different so crucified him for crimes against  Rome with the aid of Jewish hierarchy.
" better one man die than a whole nation".

There were no Christians in Jesus time. The word Christian/s doesn't even appear in any of the gospels and only three times in acts. In fact ,  as I have said here many times, Jesus the JEW would have been outraged and appalled that a whole new religion had sprang up in his name. And more appalled that alien  Christians have wrapped him in a myth.



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@Best.Korea
A razor shaves.

And a razor is also deceptive wordy stuff that attempts to prove the unprovable to the gullible.
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@Best.Korea
Rewriting history  guarantees that it will be repeated.
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@sadolite
Cool, more wars.
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@Tradesecret
Sceptics actually don't have much of a think about this at all. 
Yeah, its the sceptics who dont think.

More Christian wisdom from you, yay!
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@n8nrgim
it looks like there must be something to this Jesus story, and the following events with his followers. but you assume the christian version is far fetched, so you choose not to worry about the fact that it looks like there's something to it. that's rationalizing. 
Rationalizing is when you work backwards to justify the conclusion you find preferable. That's not what's happening here.

Again, we have a set of events described in a book. The question we're asking is what is the best explanation for this? Using basic principles of logic (Occam's razor) we compare possible explanations by asking ourselves which ones require the most assumptions (worst option) vs which ones require the least amount of assumptions (best option).

To illustrate let's go with delusion vs god. The idea that the individuals who died for their cause were merely delusional isn't remarkable at all. People die for delusional beliefs all the time, if you need a reminder come to NYC and visit ground zero.

Meanwhile an alternative explanation is that they were following a man who rose from the dead. Can you show me evidence that this has ever happened anywhere? No, of course not, because there isn't any. So accepting this explanation is a major assumption.

They don't compare. But this is the problem with indoctrination, the absurdity of this comparison doesn't seem to register because you accept the god explanation as the default. It's not the default, you need to justify that explanation as much as you would any other, and when treating each with the same standards of reason and evidence it becomes blatantly obvious which is more out there.

And like I pointed in the beginning, we don't have to have an explanation. Something I notice with Christians is that they seem to think they're on superior footing merely because they hold a belief, whatever it is. Skepticism recognizes that merely holding a belief is not a thing of value. What's valuable is ensuring that the beliefs you hold are warranted. There's nothing wrong with stopping at "I don't know". In fact if you don't have sufficient evidence, to not stop there is dishonest.
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@n8nrgim
I wouldn't be surprised if an iterant Jewish rabbi with a devoted following was crucified around 33CE. I wouldnt be surprised if people made supernatural claims about him. That happens today with modern figures. Supernatural claims, from any time period, I do not believe.

To answer specific questions, people die for things they believe. Sometimes those beliefs have no basis in reality. I see no reason why deaths of the earliest followers of Jesus are different or special in that regard. 

I don't have any strong opinions on Paul, but I have found seizure to be a compelling explanation of his Demascus road experience. 

I don't tend to think the early followers of Jesus were 'lying'. Someone might have told a lie, but for the most part I accept they believed their testimony. I just don't believe their testimony, at least, not the supernatural parts. I see no good reason why it should be accepted at face value. 
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@Best.Korea
Sometimes history needs to be changed to suit today's goals.
...or to reflect what actually happened rather than an agenda of generations passed. 
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@SkepticalOne
No. We need to rewrite history so that we look like the good guys. 

Thats how propaganda works.
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@Best.Korea
Tradesecret wrote @Best.Korea.  Sceptics actually don't have much of a think about this at all. 

Only a complete and utter dunce could make that kind of statement, Best.Korea
The very word "sceptic" indicates thinking  much further and deeper than the indoctrinated shite that Pastors and Chaplains have been feeding the world over the last 2000 years.
The Reverend Tradesecret seems to be at quite  a loss for   anything  resembling intelligent  to say these days since his mighty fall from the imagined status he once believe he  held,  Best.Korea
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@Best.Korea
No. We need to rewrite history so that we look like the good guys. 
That's definitely not a new phenomena....
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@n8nrgim
The scholar concesus is about the historical Jesus, not the Jesus of the gospels. You've got to be careful with that, it's not the same. There is no proof that the Jesus described in the gospels, aka the Christ, really existed. Maybe this JesusChrist character was constructed based on the historical Jesus, it' very likely.

Meanwhile, as I've always said anytime I talked about Jesus, we don't know if he really existed, which means we don't know if the miracles, the virgin mother, the resurrection and all this shit really happened.
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there's also the fact that supernatural looking healing looks like it occurs to christans, and christian NDEs are common.  these things as far as i can see can't be said about non christians or atheists. i know these points are debateable and open to interpretation, but my interpretation seems to be the most straight forward. jesus said you can know him not just by what he says but by his signs and wonders. and, the central message of NDEs is love and focus on God and relationships, which is also the message of jesus. it's also clear in our human nature to seek unconditional love and to give it, even if it's in our depraved state to not measure up. we all have a God sized hole that only God can fill. i realize these things im saying here are faith oriented, but it's not just faith, it's also a good dose of logic and reason too. 
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@IlDiavolo
the virgin mother
This one is actually possible.

Just let man jerk off and then take his semen and push it in your vagina.

You will be virgin because dick didnt enter your vagina, only semen did.
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@n8nrgim
christian NDEs are common
Yeah, its called hallucinations.
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@n8nrgim
we all have a God sized hole that only God can fill
Umm no.

What happens is that

They spend 30 years telling you that you need God

Until you go crazy and convince yourself that you actually need God.

The only time when you need God is when you delude yourself that God can help you. In that case, I dont recommend Christian Gods. I recommend Japanese Gods because Japanese are the healthiest and live longest.
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it looks like a lot of what we think we know about jesus might not be reliable. as for a lot of reason said by oromagi. but we know the central aspects and message by any measure, being good people and loving God? i mean, i realize it's healthy to be skeptic, but i choose to just go with it and accept orthodox teachings like the virgin birth, unless i have a good reason to doubt it. there's an element of "i want to believe" like is the phrase of the x files. also, st paul didn't invent christiananity, but he's the most influential, other than maybe st helena as oromagi said. but it's possible to reconcile jesus' message and st paul's message, there's a tension there, but it's just a matter of how you reconcile them. such as the role of faith versus being a good person. if st paul really was divdinely inspired by vision and insight, maybe that's what God intended. (it's not possible to read the new testament in good faith and not think it's not inspired writing... even if you choose to stay skeptic, it's poetic and profound teachings if you're being honest and not black hearted)