Are christians under the law?

Now from here you can see Mathew 5:17 says the law has to be followed "until heaven and earth pass" which means the meaning of fullfil here doesn't matter whether it means to follow the law or to fullfil it literally it still says you need to follow the law for eternity , maybe it hasn't yet been fullfiled or maybe it was fullfiled by making it known to everyone and teaching them how to actually follow it but again it doesn't matter since at the end it says until heaven and earth pass away which means until the end of times, the loving god and your neighbor is all you need to do argument is not good too since 1 John 5:2 quite literally says the true love for god is following his commandments plus it doesn't even say loving god is all you need to do it just emphasizes it's importance especially when you bear in mind the passage where Jesus tells a man to give everything he has and come worship the only true god "Matthew 19:21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." which indicates love isn't all you need it's just important as for Paul , he said (as you can see above) that christians are under grace not under the law but that doesn't nullify the law as he himself stated as seen above, he never said the law is not to be followed anymore he just emphasized grace and faith over it and said it's more important

Greetings. I'm going to argue from this angle.

Now you already gave a scripture that just contradicts your position.

I think the difference between our positions will be the order in which the law is still fulfilled or kept even without being under it according to my side that I can provide from scripture.

Let's start with the one scripture you used that actually fits my position of "no" to the topic question.

No , sons or the body of Christ is not under the law . If they were, it would kill them. This is why grace was extended. People failed and being under the law as the scripture say for what the law could not do.

The letter of the law killeth according to the scriptures. So they can't be under the law. It's the spirit now and the body of Christ can shout "Hallelujah Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for true and just" because the body has an advocate. The body can lift up the eyes until the hills which cometh help. The body can say but God be thanked as we read in Romans 6.

I think I'll use at least three witnesses as the scripture says let every word be established.

Let's go back to Romans 6 and start at verse :14

"14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Are the faithful children of God, the body of Christ who you would call Christians under the law?

This verse says no. So really that bout wraps it up.

Now some questions may arise about commands giving and keeping commandments and what Jesus said and does it mean we that are believers don't have to obey anything because of grace?

I'll address all this. In verse 15 we'll learn about not being under the law, but gather explanation as to not sin anyway which sin is transgression of the law.

So now we're learning that we sin or not sin based on being a servant. People of God , true people of God, born of God don't sin all while not being under the law because they've been made servants of righteousness. They've been made instruments of righteousness. They've been made slaves and vessels and been caused to bear good fruit of a tree as the branches they are.

"16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So it says "ye were the servants of sin", past tense. So then you've changed or "became the servants of righteousness."

This is so as you are led by the spirit. 

This is so according to Romans 8 and you fulfill all things without even having to be under the law.

See if you were under it, you'd be doomed and for what the law could not do which is save you from death.

In the book of Corinthians , let's read the second book, chapter 3.

"6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

What is written down and established to be followed and believed such as laws, commandments, the gospel was not sufficient . Remember for what the law could not do , the sufficiency in God came with the spirit in the hearts, written in the hearts of the children of God. That same spirit which giveth life is life eternal. That is suffice in order to make it into the kingdom. Just being under laws won't cut for what the law could not. God gave grace with the gift of the Holy spirit, gift of eternal life. Not of works the scriptures say. Not a works-based salvation.

If you are under the law, you are not led of the spirit.

Galatians 5:18

So this is how this lines up even taking us back to what Jesus told the rich man. He told him what to do not because he was under the law but these are things of what a servant to righteousness would do who is led by the spirit.

How do we know this? Jesus said none good but one. That one is the spirit that is good. So the question can be asked why have the rich man ask about what to do and Jesus answers what to do when it's not even the person that's doing it but CHRIST that liveth in you , see?

Let's go back to Matthew 19, I'll end off with this passage.

See, the rich man, and the opposing side didn't even catch on about what Jesus preface before even giving an answer. 

The rich man or the man with  great possessions demonstrated that without the spirit, it was insufficiency. He couldn't deny himself.  When you talk about a good thing to do, what good is that without the one who is good leading you to do?

He said what good thing shall I do  . Scripture say there is no more I that live. You deny yourself and your dead to sin. This man didn't die. He wasn't born again which is being born of the spirit receiving the spirit being led by it. He still saying what good thing shall I do . If you or the man would of caught what Christ said, he told you who was only good. So that nullified the man of even doing anything. There's no good he can do and that is demonstrated just left to himself in this passage. 

You just leave it to yourself thinking you can be justified by law , it'll just bring about death. This is why the people of God are not under the law because the people of God have life. The opposite, being under the law, they would not have life and find it very hard  to enter the kingdom like this man here in Matthew compared to a camel entering a needle.

For the scriptures say it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Thank you.

Hi brother I hope you are doing well , thanks for your answer, now to the matter at hand 

There seems to be a misunderstanding here which was primarily caused by me , the title I used is inappropriate since if you look carefully in my argument I quite literally said " as for Paul , he said (as you can see above) that christians are under grace not under the law but that doesn't nullify the law as he himself stated as seen above, he never said the law is not to be followed anymore he just emphasized grace and faith over it and said it's more important" so my argument was about the fact that christians still have to follow the law and that it's still important as it's god's law but that now it's simply not as important as it was and Christians now have more room and flexibility when it comes to following it as they now "under grace " but basically what I am arguing about is that being under grace simply does not mean you can sin however you want and break all the mosaic law carelessly as Paul himself said Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. 

And Hebrews said Hebrews 10:26-27 (ESV): "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries." 

Which really doesn't need explaining lol it's pretty obvious sinning deliberately even while under grace is wrong 

And Romans says 

Romans 6:15-16 (ESV): "What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

Which you already quoted when you said those born of god follow god's commands through the spirit not through reading the scriptures aka that actual believers know right from wrong and what's righteous and what's not , not because they read and adhere to the law but because of the holy spirit which I am not really against since that's basic Christianity and tbh it's not really against my point since it still says real good righteous christians follow the law through instinct and through faith in Jesus 

There is also 1 John 3:8-10 (ESV): "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." This passage from 1 John draws a clear distinction between the children of God and those who follow the devil, stating that a person who continues to sin is of the devil, not of God.

John which I believe was affected by Paul's theology(maybe that's a topic for another time :) but that doesn't matter Does it?) says that sinning deliberately and making it a habit makes you born of the devil not of god , which again supports my claim that even though christians are under the law they can't just go around sinning , grace is just a way so that christians can have an excuse and can be justified if they accidentally sin and not deliberately, since the law was very strict before Jesus after he came now christians are justified by grace if they ever stumble and sin in other words sin is washes away and destroyed by faith grace deletes the sin as if it never happened as long as you don't just keep sining deliberately over and over and over again without ever thinking about it no that's when grace isn't an excuse, so again in summary christians are under grace not the law but the law is still very important and they still have to try to follow it and they shouldn't abandon it , or you can have another point of view and it's that those born of god or actual christians or christians that are true believers and actually have faith all follow the law by nature as they are guided by the spirit both point of views I accept, now anyways you still kind of didn't answer my last argument all you did was say christians are under grace not the law which again I already said(tho I am dumb and the title was a cause of misunderstanding) but then you completely ignored all the passages that I sent that tell christians not to sin deliberately and the passages saying that the law is still important not just a thing of the past so I am waiting for your answer:) and I am very very sorry for the misunderstanding I really didn't mean it it's my bad , anyways I am also very interested to what you will say to Mathew 23:1-3 in which I quoted in the last argument in the "extra" part , lastly what you said about the rich man in Mathew about the rich man when you said "So this is how this lines up even taking us back to what Jesus told the rich man. He told him what to do not because he was under the law but these are things of what a servant to righteousness would do who is led by the spirit.

" Is wrong because that was before Jesus sacrificed himself aka before grace which would mean this does not apply at all , the man was still under the law as this was before the sacrifice we can see that grace came after the sacrifice not before and as an example we have Hebrews 9:15-17:

Are christians under the law?

True believers, members of the body of Christ.

I say no. I believe you say no .

You do agree that true holiness folks who you may refer to as Christians  are not under the law.

Is this correct?

That's the topic. So you do have to recant your position making it yes to agree with mine as no to the topic question.

The question is, how or why are you following a law, obeying a law that you're not under?

This is not really the topic but the topic is pretty much closed, you agree with my side.

I'm just revisiting this portion to extend the discourse.

How or why are you following a law, obeying a law that you're not under?

Scripture does say not of works. It says 

but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

It says blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Matthew 5

No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them. No one can do that, let alone be good enough for themselves to make it in.

So how is it that we meaning those that the scripture is referring to, the ones that are saved are to obey commands and yet not under them?

Some may argue, where it says not under the law, it's talking about the old testament law. Ok, what about the laws that carried on through?

All things must be fulfilled according to the scripture and the ones that Jesus didn't speak against or say different of, all those things must be fulfilled.

So either way you slice it, scripture is not broken, the law is still in existence but yet you if you are one of his children, you're not under but yet must follow to enter into life , entering into the kingdom.

Not being justified by the law but by faith. Why follow a law , a commandment when you will not be justified by it?

You follow it or fulfill it based on a new heart that's within you causing you to produce fruits of the spirit. We learn this in the book of Ephesians chapter 1 and 2. Scripture says " For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God".

I'll leave it there. If the opposing side has questions or like more elaboration of the scripture or passages mentioned, that can be fulfilled next round.

Hey bro, hope you are well. To the point: the only issue I actually have is that this argument is centered around Paul. But if we look at the passages I already sent—the ones that weren’t written by him (and Hebrews)—then we would get a pretty good idea of what Paul meant.

Now the key word here is going to be “justified.” If you look at the passages we already spoke about, Paul seems to only condemn justification through the law. And how can someone be justified through the law? Through sacrifices, no? That seems to be the only issue with Paul, as there really isn’t anything else that falls under that category.

Obviously, Paul condoned living without breaking the law. Moreover, he clearly says in Romans 6:1-2:

"What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

And he obviously condemns unrighteousness"1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

Here, Paul lists various sins and declares that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, which can be understood as implying a separation from God's eternal presence.

> "Do you not know that the *UNRIGHTEOUS* will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, ESV)" 

And in Romans 7:12, Paul declares that the law is righteous:

"So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good."

So by definition, breaking the law is unrighteous, which Paul clearly condemned.

And I just want to clarify that Paul obviously says that without faith works can't do anything for you and only faith can justify you not works(I just said what justification through works means) 

Furthermore, Jesus clearly says to the apostles (not Paul, since he wasn’t with them) that they can loosen and tighten anything in heaven in Matthew 18:18:

"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Peter obviously said Christians must follow Jesus’ example, especially by not sinning, in 1 Peter 2:21-22:

"To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you must follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’"

Moreover, the ability to loosen and tighten was specifically given to the apostles who were with Jesus. So if we take someone’s word, Peter’s words are more reliable—and the other apostles’ too.

(Even) James said in James 2:24:

"You see that a person is justified by what they do and not by faith alone."

And in James 2:17:

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Additionally, Jeremiah 31:33 shows that the new covenant includes the law being written in the minds and hearts of believers:

"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

I guess that’s where the idea in 1 John 3:8 comes from when he calls sinners "of the devil," because that would mean they “aren’t following the new covenant” or aren’t part of it—or whatever you want to name it:

"The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work."

Lastly , in my opinion Paul really only had a problem with circumcision , laws that were used to justify someone, and laws that distinguished between gentiles and Israelites and made it hard for gentiles to convert (as is the opinion of the book that I'll quote in a bit) I also see that really the only person to say that christians aren't under the law is really just Paul while all the other apostles which directly lived with Jesus never spoke like Paul and in my opinion their opinions are just superior to his but that's just a non christian perspective 

---

Extra: 

That's extra because that's the perspective of the book "the new perspective on Paul " which I agree with in some things and disagree with at some other points but I'll quote some of it just to give an Insight on the perspective of it's writer's which are two of the greatest christian scholars James dunn and N T wright , the book says , 

Writers from a more traditional Protestant perspective often interpret the Greek word charis as "grace," suggesting that salvation involves no human effort because it depends entirely on God’s work. However, other scholars argue that charis is better understood as "favor," referring to God’s act of doing humanity a great kindness through Jesus Christ.

In ancient cultures, favors often came with the expectation of reciprocity, meaning those who received a favor were obligated to respond appropriately. In this view, when Paul speaks of God’s favor in sending Jesus, he is emphasizing that God took the initiative. However, this interpretation doesn’t imply that human effort is irrelevant. Rather, it suggests that Christians are expected to respond to God’s favor with righteous living.

Some critics argue that this perspective undermines the central idea of grace by reintroducing works as a requirement for salvation. However, proponents clarify that forgiveness of sins through Christ’s sacrifice remains central. Human effort, in this view, isn’t about earning salvation but about fulfilling the responsibility that comes with God’s favor. Paul himself highlights the need for effort in Philippians 3:12-16:

"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me... Only let us live up to what we have already attained."

N.T. Wright, a notable scholar, has written extensively on this topic. He notes that Paul, in alignment with Second Temple Judaism, teaches that God’s final judgment will consider the entirety of a person’s life—including their works. According to Wright:

"Final Judgment According to Works... was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream Second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God's final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works."

Sorry for the delayed answer I am currently pretty sick and I was busy the whole week 

Scripture say faith without words is dead. Faith alone does nothing. Works is the doing so they don't do nothing. It's really the faith alone that does nothing.

Nothing towards working out your soul salvation. Now many believe that all it takes is faith to be saved.

But an example of faith and works ,  you go to the book of Mark 16 and 16 , it says he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.

Ok, here's the example in scripture. The Ethiopian eunuch I believe said see here is water, what do hinder me from being baptized?

Philip I believe his name was told the Eunuch if he believes Jesus Christ is the son of God , he may (go down in water in the name of Jesus Christ).

The Eunuch said he believed and he took him down.

Do you believe who you call Christians able to follow Jesus on their own of themselves?

Each apostle was given what he was given to say or teach by God. One taught in sin and law. Another taught or preached baptism. Others spread the gospel sprinkling the seeds while God gives the increase.

So firstly you literally just said works are important and faith alone isn't enough , works in this context is the law , now that's one , secondly believing whether christians can or cannot follow Jesus's example is pretty irrelevant , whether they can or not peter was very clear in that passage , plus following someone doesn't mean you have to be 100% like him , it means you should try as much as possible to be like him , not ignore sin and endorse it , and not live breaking the law without remorse furthermore Paul already made it clear the holy spirit is supposed to guide christians into rightousness and holiness , so I guess in these days christians are supposed to be close at least to Jesus's example not the opposite 

3: the disciples that were close to Jesus had the same teachings or teachings very close , yeah maybe they sometimes taught different things (as in some of them taught things not taught by others) but mostly they agreed in most things but Paul is different , he alone taught christians are not under the law anymore , I am not saying this as bullet proof Paul is unreliable I am saying this to say that the majority should be the one's with the priority especially if that majority were the one's that actually lived with Jesus , on top of that if the disciples had different teachings and each disciple was given different things to say and preach then that really wouldn't make a lot of sense because their teacher was one , Jesus , they didn't have many teachers , and they all were with him , it's not like one of them was with him at a time while the others were absent , they were all a group together and their teacher is one thus their teachings should also be somewhat one although not necessarily perfectly 

So which one is it? Is the holy Spirit guiding you leading you into all truth or is it the person him and herself leading themselves?

I got scripture that says those that are led of the spirit of the God are sons of God whom you can call Christians.

Jesus taught different things so it does make sense and he expounded to them the different  parables he used. Just because different things was taught, that doesn't mean there's contradiction.

Scripture speaks about a diversity of gifts and not everyone having the same nor one star alike, a saying of earthly things, a teaching of heavenly things.

Even Jesus when talking to the rich man, he's teaching different things but all of them are coherent to what the ministry was setup to do going out into all the world teaching, making disciples.

Case closed.