Free will exists.
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After 2 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
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I will define free will as "the rational appetite" which I will explain in the debate. You can either present your own definition and defend it against mine or try and refute mine simply. Just know that I do not think that science is adequate enough to answer this question since it has limited its research physical observation. I think that free will is not something physical nor is it something that can be quantified by itself. You need reason to understand it. So be ready to address my reasoning.
However, You can bring in science if you wish. I will be using mainly philosophy. And by philosophy, I mean reasoning to my conclusions logically using the principles of philosophy, namely the first principles and any principles associated with this particular topic.
M) The will is from the essence of the soul, following upon the intellect, seeking what the intellect apprehends and proposes.m) Now the intellect proposes universal good as necessary and particular goods as pursuable.cl) The will seeks necessarily universal good but not necessarily particular good.
To the Major (M) premise: Soul here simply means our principle of life. What makes our life different from the animals is our rationality and volition. It has nothing to do with ghosts, spirits or any other wacko ideas people have come up with. "Following upon the intellect" means it is an appetite that tends toward what the intellect presents. The intellect presents knowledge by the way.
You cannot not want goodness. BUT the intellect also presents to us a particular good (in which this goodness resides to a specific degree but is not goodness itself) which it knows can be reached in several different ways. For example, I can walk this way or that way to go to the same store. Because the intellect presents these multiple means to the same end the will can tend to one or the other. I as a person, by exercising my will, choose which. Said simply: because I know many ways to do something, I have the ability to choose one, because the will by nature is an appetite.
In order for there to be a true "free" We need both objective and subjective indifference. Proofs:"free" requires objective indifferenceM "free" requires that the will not will of necessitym but where there is no objective indifference (multiple means presented by the intellect) the will wills of necessity.cl "free" requires objective indifference
The first syllogism shows that we need MEANS to an END in order to choose. By the very fact of the existence of multiple means to the same end (which to deny is absurd) means we have a choice to that end. The power of the will is to choose one. This is the objective indifference and it proves we are free in this sense.The second syllogism shows that two ENDS are always presented. To act or not. "free" implies we must be able to choose action or no action. THIS FORMALLY CONSTITUTES OUR FREEDOM OF WILL. And it is because the intellect always presents the option to act or not. Thus in every court of law, for every convicted criminal that is actually guilty we say that he should have chosen not to do the action that is the crime.
Premise 1: All humans are made up of things without free willPremise 2: Things without free will cannot create something with free willConclusion: Humans cannot have free will.
Premise 1: All humans are made up of things without free will
Premise 2: Things without free will cannot create something with free will
Conclusion: Humans cannot have free will
I feel that Premise 1 is circular reasoning. If I understand your argument right, you are saying that intellect perceives the world, and will acts on that perception. Intellect perceives what is good and bad, and will follows the good. I agree that if this is true, then free will exists, yet Premise 1 relies on the assumption that free will already exists. To expand it out, Premise 1 is basically saying that "If free will exists, then it is from the essence of the soul...". I may be misunderstanding your argument, but it seems a lot like circular reasoning to me at first glance.
Okay, so this makes me think I interpreted correctly about the intellect part. You're also saying that free will comes from our unique ability as humans to reason. I disagree, and once again I think you already make the assumption that free will exists when creating these syllogisms. Like I said before, It is irrational to assume that we as humans magically have free will by some special ability to reason when all the things that make us up are purely deterministic.
Again, this feels a bit like you're just explaining how you think free will works, and not why it must exist. This is a good definition for free will, and if It is real then I would say this is probably how it works, but you still have yet to say why it is real. Or maybe you did and I missed it, sorry if that's what happened.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my interpretation of this is that free will is necessary whenever there are multiple means to an end. The will wants the end, and it relies on free will to choose which path. I disagree though, seeing as I had problems with your first syllogism, and so I'm not inclined to believe in a will. Additionally, you could easily be making choices about which means to an end without the existence of free will. The fact that you are making choices doesn’t necessitate that they must be free choices. As I suggested before, your brain could be making predetermined choices without you knowing.
I’ll accept that we have to make choices in our lives, but again, that doesn’t make it so that those choices must be freely made by ourselves. The option to choose doesn’t come in a package with the ability to choose. For all we know, choices are being made, but not by us, or choices are an illusion, and everything has been determined. Point is, existence of a choice does not equal ability to make that choice.
In philosophy we speak of what things are made of. We call this the material cause. This is what Con addresses here only in his first premise. All things also have what is called a form. The form is the way the matter is organized. We can take the same matter and make different things. For example ice, steam and water are all made of H2O. But those are three different things that act differently under the same circumstances. Science has a theory right now called the emergence theory( Emergence - Wikipedia). This theory essentially says that basic matter acts very differently when organized a certain way. For example: Hydrogen is flammable. Oxygen is flammable. But try lighting an oxygen and 2 hydrogen combined on fire. In other words, try lighting pure water on fire. I don't think you can.
An ability is determined and specified by its object. If there is an ability to choose then there must be several choices. If there exists choice, then there is an ability to choose. How do you say "choice exists" if there are no other choices?I do hate getting bogged down in semantics, but this is kind of critical to the argument. If we posit that "choice" means simply multiple ways for something to be accomplished and then posit there is no "to be accomplished" we are missing the entire point. If we simply posit "choice" to mean "multiple ways" then we deny the very definition of the word we are trying to use.To choose by definition means there must be a choice.Choice by definition means there must be a way to choose.This is how we define things. Without them we end in contradiction and absurdity. At best we would end in incomplete ideas making argument stupid.
I will disagree with your idea of what "choice" means. By definition choice means there are other options. If there is no way to obtain any of the choices except one, then there is no choice and then you break the definition of the word you are trying to use. I am actually surprised you used this argument as it defies basic significatio rules of logic.You break the definition by denying an essential part to the word. I don't know how else to answer that.
I'd say this is a false comparison. You make the analogy of water, which obviously is not flammable being made of things that are flammable. While at first glance, there does seem to be a connection, I disagree. With free will, you can't possibly having a being with it made of things that don't have it. The particles absent of free will are following specific "if-then" instructions when interacting with other particles, thus causing things in the wider world to happen. If I have free will and I'm controlling the particles I'm made out of, then they have free will by extension, because they are following instructions coming from me, not from how they are made. They either do what they are destined to do, or they do what I tell them, there isn't really a possibility where both happen.
However, you've conceded the point that the particles that make me up are devoid of free will regardless the order they are in.
...those particles are deterministic no matter what order you put them in
To me, choice is really an illusion. There may be two paths on a trail that lead to the same place, but even though we theoretically could go either way, we will always choose whichever one our brain determine is the best one. For whatever reason it decides, our computer brains will pick a way to get to the end.
There may be multiple conceivable paths, but we are ultimately just going to choose one, and that's the one that has been determined for us since the beginning of the universe.
Forgive me for not explaining this in the last round. When I spoke of form, I continued with a conclusion drawn from the existence of form and what would in this argument become a principle. I am not making a comparison to water. I used the example of water to show the principle in philosophy that matter organized a certain way gives rise to properties that the whole contains, but not the parts individually. I brought in the Emergence Theory to show that even science demonstrates this principle of philosophy. I am applying this principle to the concept of free will because I am positing that free will is of the whole, not of the parts. We must look at the whole to demonstrate what is of the whole.
Free will is not in the individual particles by themselves. Free will is in the whole person. This is a conclusion we draw from the application of the principle that matter organized a certain way gives rise to properties that are of the whole, and not of the parts. To say that because the whole does it, so also, by extension must the parts is a composition fallacy.
While self-movement may be a characteristic of particles, I do not know, it is irrelevant to the point since we are here talking about the action of a whole thing. Based on the principle above, we can see that parts do not need, of themselves, the characteristics of the whole. This is a principle easily demonstrated in many realms. I, by myself cannot make any laws. But with other Representatives, we can collectively make laws. The action of the whole is not necessarily the action of every part. This comes from the axiom: The whole is greater than the part. That does not mean just physically. It also means in actions, in abilities and in potencies.
definition of illusion: a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.If Con disagrees with this definition, that is fine but in that case I would like a definition.Logically speaking, we must be able to show that something is illusory by showing the opposite or a contrary to be real or there is no way to actually determine if what is perceived is actually an illusion. So, in light of the above principle in bold which disproves Con's argument against free will, and which I assume would be the real thing he would point to demonstrate free will as an illusion, what does Con say is the real thing which proves the illusion? The above principle demonstrates that particles taken together as a whole carry greater characteristics than the particles themselves. So what is it that is real, that demonstrates free will to be the illusion?
What exactly do you mean when you say that free will is of the whole, not the parts?
There is no actual whole
If you accept that the particles have no free will, then you accept that the computer doesn't, because the computer is the particles.
There is no "whole", the whole is just the parts by another word.
The key thing I think you're missing is that in your analogy, you still contain part of the property possessed by the whole while with free will that is not the case. You hold a small amount of power in the legislative system, but it's still some, and it creates a whole when brought together with the small bit of power everyone else has. However with particles, none of them contain a little bit of free will, so they can't create free will by coming together.
In philosophy there is an axiom: The Whole is greater than the parts.What this means is that there are things we can say of the whole but not of the parts. For example: atoms do not sing. But a person does sing. This is a question of predication. i.e. what we can say of something. A person is what we would call a whole. composed of parts. So when we say a person sings, we mean that the whole is involved. Now obviously we are speaking philosophically. I am not saying your foot sings. We are using the word "whole" here analogically meaning there are multiple ways to use the different senses of the word. For free will, I am saying it is an act of the person. Meaning no individual part has the power of free will, only the whole taken together.
Firstly, I totally disagree with this part of your statement. Do we not call the combination of wood and stone and metal in a certain order a "house"? The very word itself implies a whole. And I do live in an actual house. The word "whole" is analogical, meaning there are different senses to the word that all have a primary idea underlying it. It is not a univocal term.
Firstly, the "whole" is the parts taken together. Without the notion of "taken together" when referring to the whole, you can only logically refer to one part. Which would mean that we would be arguing whether or not an atom has free will. I already made it clear that is not my point, nor what I am arguing. Nor do I think it is the answer to this question. If that is what you are trying to argue than I would say again you are making a fallacy because we are talking about a whole. We are talking about parts taken together. Not individual parts by themselves. Secondly, to accept your quote above is to deny the axiom: The whole is greater than the parts. Which would be absurd.
I only contain power by virtue of the whole, meaning it is from the whole, not the parts. I by myself have no legislative power so it cannot come from me. What you are missing is that it is the whole that gives, not the parts. So it is with free will. it is from the whole, not the parts. Different source of the potency. Or in philosophical terms: different principle, ergo different potency. That logically follows from the Axiom I stated above in Italics.
There's one big difference between singing and free will that makes this analogy fail.
They don't contain the action of singing themselves, but they do have a small part of it.
There is a "whole" in the sense that we give names to certain collections of atoms, but that doesn't mean it magically becomes something.
If I took one atom out of my house, it wouldn't be my house anymore, it would be a different one. It would be a very similar, and indistinguishable house, yet still a different one.
As shown above, there is more than matter. Something immaterial called the form. You cannot separate the form from the matter. Neither can a thing exist without a form.
The "whole" doesn't gain any special properties just because it is a collection of things, it retains the properties of the things it's made of.
However, the "whole" cannot have any properties that its parts cannot.
Sometimes it seems like the whole has qualities the parts do not, but that is always an illusion.
Well you do have a little bit of legislative power in that you elected lawmakers.
I would say it was a fail, because I did not make an analogy between free will and singing. I used the example of singing to demonstrate the principle derived from the axiom that I have stated several times. This principle also applies to free will. I was not comparing or making an analogy between free will and singing. I was demonstrating the application of a principle of reasoning. The principle applies to the two. That does not mean I am comparing them or making an analogy.
Atoms cannot sing by themselves as Con has said. This means they do not have the ability to sing. Yet a cluster of atoms does have the ability to sing. Con's statement contradicts itself at face value and even if Con could clarify exactly what he means by "have a small part" he would still have to demonstrate that part, either with a scientific experiment or from reason, which he has not done yet, nor has he given anything to back it up. I don't really see exactly what he means by that "have a small part". It seems at best ambiguous, and also a division fallacy. Also, I don't see how you can say that a simple action is dividable. Perhaps singing is not the best example. Atoms do not see, but eyes, which is made up atoms do. Atoms do not smell, but a nose, which is made up of atoms, does. Simple abilities are not dividable. So, you can't really say that atoms each "have a small part".
There are different senses to the word "different". Something can become materially different while still being the same thing formally. Are you still Moozer325 after all your atoms have been replaced? Yes. You are still you. You are different materially but not formally. In the example above the house is different materially but not formally. If Con remembers I stated in one of my previous rounds:
So, a person singing is an illusion?
Thanks from me too!
Con's arguments are terrible here
Thanks for the vote!
I see your point about my reference to the natural and artificial whole. But honestly, it is not a very simple concept and it would take a lot more space to have to explain that and I was worried the debate would topple into that which was not what the debate was about. I simply gave the reference to give the reader a chance to see what I was saying in the arguments that followed.
Given how repetitive this debate got towards the end, I think it's a good example of why I believe that the vast majority of debates don't need to be longer then three rounds, or four if you're doing the whole "I waive the first round, my opponent waives the last round" thing. If you're a competent debater who is knowledgeable about the topic at hand, then three rounds should be sufficient to make your entire case.
>Vote: McMieky // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 3 to Pro (Arguments), 2 to Con (Legibility, Conduct)
>Reason for Decision:
i really liked both sides of this argument
>Reason for Removal:
The voter does not explain their decision. An RFD must include reasoning for awarding points and this just expresses the voter's appreciation for the debate. That is not sufficient to award points.
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Probably won't have time to get to this.
It's great that you liked both side's arguments.
But they'd probably also like the know what in 'particular you liked,
To vote as you did.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10oWHhN-eI0eX6TEpW2kgPv1iRCUNTrIHblqn8BRRXL8/edit?tab=t.0
RFV Part 1
I 'really think Moozer325 argument that if a component of a whole lacks an ability, this means the whole will lack the ability, to be flawed.
But as I read it, I can maybe take it to mean for example there is no gun, no bullet being fired, each component is just doing what it does, the trigger does not explode.
Still feels awkward though, and I find MAV99's arguments on it easier to understand. Makes more sense to me.
It comes off to me as though Moozer325 is trying to argue water or wetness do not exist, that only individual particles exist, that wetness is not wetness it is just particles in some arrangement.
I don't see why the particles we are made of would need free will if we had free will.
The components of a computer individually are not able to create for themselves the end result of the computer.
I think the Moozer325 argument that we will only ever choose the one path is better,
Though I am not so sure about the robot argument,
We have 'something more than a robot or a falling domino.
I'm not 'wild about MAV99 argument about having multiple methods to solve a problem.
But I found MAV99's first Round 'Really difficult to follow, not because I think it was explained badly, but because there's a lot of 'specific meanings in their argument.
But I'm not wild about their multiple options argument, because it 'does play a bit towards Moozer325's argument that we will choose X every time.
. . . But then MAV99 'is of 'course aware of causation and specifically speak of it and Aristotle.
Possible problem for Moozer325 might be the starting debate description,
Where both sides are able to use their 'own definitions for Free Will, "the rational appetite" in the case of MAV99.
Though I'm not sure I agree with their arguments such as if the brain cannot suggest multiple means because of a defect.
Unless one is 'incredibly out of it or overpowered by this or that, people, even drunk people I think, are going to have at least two methods occur to them for action.
. . . But perhaps MAV99 would argue they 'have free will, but incredibly depressed free will.
There's still the problem of causation though, I think.
“Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills” - Arthur Schopenhauer
Moozer325 Lego argument doesn't work for me,
A sword and a hammer are made of particles, but the end shapes are different,
The particles only 'gain the ability to chop or hammer 'together, not individually.
Though 'maybe Moozer325 would argue there is no sword or hammer, only particles.
In a 'sense I suppose, but such an argument comes across as for example, Zeno's Paradox of movement, halfway there, therefore never there. Yet clearly objects reach theres.
Though. . . Probably there are logics against Zenos paradox, I'm shallow in my reading.
I see Moozer325 'does make argument in law example,
Of the smaller parts having 'tiny bit of end result power,
So presumably he'd argue particles individually do have cutting and hammering power, force/mass.
. . . I'm not sure that's not a reach though, then one can claim the trigger has the same power as the gunpowder, because it is made of matter and has energy, and all the explosion is is energy released.
. . . There 'are arguments that 'everything has consciousness and will of sorts, even if weird or tiny to us. Or some 'principle of such.
Not that I believe or believe not such.
But there 'is the problem of the description and MAV99 definition of Free Will.
RFV Part 2
MAV99 sing argument,
Arguably there are events that only occur when there is 'enough of something,
Frequencies of sound for example,
A cricket chirp is not a bullhorn, something 'new occurs in wholes. Small sounds don't break glass. Something 'new is there in that whole/size.
MAV99 argument that a computer is not a human, goes over well with me.
Moozer325 binary argument 'also isn't strong I think,
While one 'does have something or not,
Fire for example, 'But there 'is an in between, where the temperature rises,
There is 'much fire and little fire,
There is enough fire to accomplish X, and fire not enough to accomplish X.
I think Moozer325 does well by sticking with his particles lack free will argument,
Though I think MAV99 'does address it with emergent properties,
MAV99 arguments feel yet incomplete due to many of Moozer325 arguments.
What I am expecting this to end with is a tie,
As I think while both sides presented good arguments, they both sides seem 'initial arguments, they both have their Theories,
But as their Theories are different, they focus on different parts of the debate,
Much of the later debate occurs in minor rebuttals to each others views, and minor patching up of said theories without 'deep explanation of said theories, due to each side's rebuttals being a bit light, as each side has maybe more focused out their own views.
. . . Possibly I missed it, but did Moozer325 ever define Free Will?
They stated people do not have it, but I'm not sure they were explicit in stating what Free Will 'is that humans do not have.
I recall arguments for 'why they would not have it.
Singing isn't 'just vibration to humans though,
It's also the concept,
But maybe this falls under illusion for Moozer325 arguments?
. . . But then they say "the whole having qualities that the parts do not is an illusion."
Which I think MAV99 'did address with emergent properties, but again, I'm not sure MAV99 reply went as deep as it might of, the (to me) light cuts (Not bad cuts) of both sides leads towards a tie.
I won't have time to vote on this debate. Could you guys vote?
If the will is free, then who pays for it
I reckon will has to come from somewhere
And if not god himself, you say you’re free and I say I’m free
Well one of these days you’re gonna see
The will ain’t free
If it was I wouldn’t feel compelled to type this
Every letter
Less free than the last
I'll try and get my vote up before the voting period expires.
Also, just helpful suggestion, there's a vote request thread in the forums where you can request a vote on your debate. I'd recommend posting there if you have a debate no one has voted on.
Votes
I will vote on this one if I have time.
votes plz
Well, someone else accepted anyway, so you dont need me to accept. Its just that definition of free will in description, as well as saying science cant explain it... I dont feel like jumping into a debate without at least some idea what the debate will be about.
What is unclear?
The debate seems too unclear for me to accept.
Feel free to accept...
Good luck proving that it exists. So far no one managed to prove it.
There are some on here that don't think so. There are also scientists who think that it does not exist.
Why would free will not exist?