Instigator / Pro
0
1577
rating
20
debates
72.5%
won
Topic
#5765
It is more likely that no god* exists rather than any form of god existing.
Status
Voting
The participant that receives the most points from the voters is declared a winner.
Voting will end in:
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DD
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HH
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Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
0
1507
rating
5
debates
60.0%
won
Description
Alright, it’s been a while since I’ve done an atheism debate and I miss it kinda.
God: a perfectly good, omnipotent and omniscient being that created the universe.
Please note that neither side has to prove that god is real or not, you just have to make a case that your side is more probable than the other.
Round 1
Introduction
My strategy for this debate is going to be just throwing out every good argument there is for atheism and hoping at least one of them convinces the voters. That said, I apologize if this gets to be a little long, but I create this debate with the express purpose of it being very in depth, so I think the time limit and character limit will support that. One final thing before I begin, I acknowledge that the primary burden of proof rests with me. I must have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely God does not exist, and Con must either have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely that God does exist, or demonstrate that I have not provided enough evidence to support my side. With that, here we go.
The Problem of Evil
This is one of my favorite arguments for atheism. At its most basic form, it goes something like this:
Premise 1: God is all loving (this is provided in my description of God, so by agreeing to this debate, you agreed to this premise)
Premise 2: The World has Evil in it
Premise 3: An all loving God would not create a world with evil
Conclusion: An all loving God cannot exist.
That by itself is probably the most common argument against god's existence, but what makes it my favorite is all the little other arguments that branch off from it. For example, there is the problem of animal evil. God could have created all animals so that they were photosynthetic (they get their energy from the sun), but God made it specifically so that many animals must eat other animals to survive. Why would an all loving God create a world where you must commit evil to others to survive?
Many challenges to this argument say that it must be a part of his cosmic design. There must be some reason. Sometimes, the reason provided is that without some evil, you cannot have certain types of good. Eg. Without fear you can't have bravery, without challenges you can't have accomplishment etc. But if I was brave enough to save someone from a burning building, it still would have been better for there to be no fire. There would have been no property damage, so damage to me and the victims bodies, and the loved ones would have been spared the horror of seeing their family member stuck in a burning building. So, I ask you, does it make more sense that an all loving God created a world with Evil just so there could be some other kinds of good, or would he have just have created a world where there is no Evil, and you always feel positive emotions? I feel that it makes more sense to just have a perfect world.
Additionally, If he was God, then why couldn’t he have made it so we feel emotions like accomplishment, and bravery regardless of actually having done anything. Emotions are emotions, and if God is truly all powerful (within possibility), then it would make more sense to have a world where we feel these emotions constantly. I know I would prefer a world like that.
And again, there is the problem of Animal suffering. Why would God make it so that some animals have to eat others to survive? I see no good coming out of this?
Because of this, I feel that it is more likely that the universe is simply indifferent to our suffering, and there is no all loving being trying to maximize our happiness.
Non-resistant Non-Believers/ Divine Hiddenness
This one is pretty simple. Why would an all loving God knowingly not reveal himself to people who are willing? A non-resistant non-believer is someone who wants to believe in God and is open to believing in God, but still has not had God reveal himself to them, and so does not believe. A perfectly loving God wouldn’t want someone like this to suffer. If a person actively wants to believe in God, and actively wants to have a personal relationship with God, then why would an all loving God deny this to them?
Theists often respond to this one by saying that God must be acting in the best interests of the person, and they don't know it, but that brings us back to my use of the word "likely" in the title.
It seems most probable (to me at least) that in order to be perfectly loving, god would want to have a personal relationship with all of his creation, especially if that creation desired one. It is possible that he is acting in some mysterious way, but I think that scenario seems to be a bit too complicated. As Occam's Razor says, the simplest explanation is often the correct one.
Religious displacement
This is another relatively simple one, but it is also a very powerful one, at least I think so. Basically, If God is all loving, and loves every one of his creations equally, then why are you more likely to have a divine visit if you live in a different country. For example, Thailand is about 92% Atheist. On the other end, India has a 99% rate of people saying that they are religious when polled.
If a god existed, you would expect to find that he has revealed himself to people indiscriminately of nationality, but clearly that is not true.
Another addition to this puzzle is the variety of religions around the world. If there was an all loving god, it would make sense for him to reveal himself equally to people regardless of race and location. If that were true, you would expect all major religions to arrive at roughly the same idea. They might get some minor things different, but as we see today, to there are so many different religions with so many different beliefs. I find it hard to believe that a perfectly all loving god would allow this.
Divine Hiddenness (again, but different)
This one actually is different from my second point, but I just couldn’t think of anything better to call it.
I don’t think my opponent will object to the fact that region can cause conflict, specifically over which one is the correct one. While it is true that region only directly caused around 7% of wars, it is still a major problem that it caused any wars. And besides that even, religion one of the biggest dividing factors between us humans. If a war wasn’t directly caused by religion, then there is a good chance that the opposing sides had different majority faith systems, and this can be used by demagogues to whip the population into a frenzy of hatred.
With all of this in mind, God is clearly causing much harm by not revealing himself directly to all of us. If god were to appear before a massive gathering of us, and state clearly what religion is correct (if any), it would stop all the religious fighting. By not intervening, God is passively letting all this violence go on, and thus cannot be perfectly good.
Again, this isn’t a direct proof of anything. God may have his reasons for being so hidden, but it seems most likely that the universe is simply indifferent to our problems.
Conclusion
Those are some of the best arguments for atheism out there. There are some others, but I chose not to include them because they either weren’t that good, or I was too lazy. Sure, it is still a possibility that god can exist, but I believe that these arguments demonstrate that it is at least improbable.
Thank you, I yield the floor.
Introduction
For this debate I like to apply tactics of Socrates the Great to confuse those who r influenced blindly by my respected Opponent's Motion.
And to display truth to those who like to know it.
The Problem of Evil | Religious displacement |Divine Hiddenness:
God is great and origin of goodness....
innocence , love , wisdom , grace , truth is the fingerprints of GOD. GOD is all ...... love...wisdom.....innocence.... grace.... truth...
God is creator of everything and creator of u and me , and gives us free will and intelligence which improved with passage of time . everything is caged into nature except us . only we r able to do anything against nature .
Animal eat each other lion eat deer.... eat.... grass....... that's just their nature that is not evil
But when we learn from them and do good things for mankind and some times what we do is bad for everything...... that is not fault of GOD , that is our fault of humans as we enjoy our freedom to fly and to reach the blue sky for goodness and sometimes result r worse or not according to our expectations .... that's okay and the fact is that we r the creator of evil .
GOD have complete free will and independent from everything but he still not participate in this world and ofcourse he don't deserve to do anything in world after GOD create humans while humans have half free will as they depend on other things and for that we participate in this world . becoz we need it and we r like GODs of this world after Great GOD . Humans r ambitious so we do bad and good to achieve something.
We r the children of GOD ( special creature of GOD much than others , it doesn't mean GOD is our father ) but after all we can't see the GOD becoz we r not able see GOD it doesn't mean , GOD is bad who don't reveal his self to us and still see destruction and fight among religions and humans.
nope ! nope ! at all , we r not able to see him and we r in playground of world where we and GOD paly hide and seek . GOD never reveal himself to us we find him by ourselves ..... and for that every one choose their own way , no one can say this way is wronge or that is right only the end results tell the truth.
Conclusions :
but before results comes its better for humans to be believe in their own selves and deal with love , grace and wisdom by their intelligence to find the innocent truth (GOD) who is without any lie.
Round 2
For this debate I like to apply tactics of Socrates the Great to confuse those who r influenced blindly by my respected Opponent's Motion.And to display truth to those who like to know it.
First off, I always love a good Socratic questioning. Should be fun, lets see what you have in mind.
God is great and origin of goodness....innocence , love , wisdom , grace , truth is the fingerprints of GOD. GOD is all ...... love...wisdom.....innocence.... grace.... truth...God is creator of everything and creator of u and me , and gives us free will and intelligence which improved with passage of time . everything is caged into nature except us . only we r able to do anything against nature .
I didn't specifically put that in my definition, but I think it's encapsulated in "Omnipotent" and "Perfectly Loving", so I won't object to that definition.
Animal eat each other lion eat deer.... eat.... grass....... that's just their nature that is not evil
I mean, yeah it kinda is. I didn't provide a definition for good or evil, and that's my bad, but being eaten by another animal certainly causes pain, does it not? If God was all-loving, he certainly wouldn't want any of his creations to feel pain whatsoever, so he wouldn't make it so that animals must eat each other. You say that it is just the nature of the animals, but God made it their nature. I never necessarily said it was evil, but it sure causes a lot of unnecessary pain, which an All-loving god wouldn't allow.
But when we learn from them and do good things for mankind and some times what we do is bad for everything...... that is not fault of GOD , that is our fault of humans as we enjoy our freedom to fly and to reach the blue sky for goodness and sometimes result r worse or not according to our expectations .... that's okay and the fact is that we r the creator of evil .
Sure, some evil is borne from humans, and it makes sense that some evil must be permitted in order for us to have free will. However, what about natural evil? What about Earthquakes and Hurricanes, Genetic defects that cause pain, Disease, and of course, death. Even if you believe in an afterlife, Death still causes lots of pain for the people who knew that person. Clearly, not all evil is natural.
Beyond that even, God may not create the circumstances in which we experience some pain, but he did give us the ability to feel pain. He may not be the one giving us this pain, but he brought it into the world, which isn't something that an all-loving God would do.
but after all we can't see the GOD becoz we r not able see GOD it doesn't mean , GOD is bad who don't reveal his self to us and still see destruction and fight among religions and humans.
No, I never said that God was bad because he didn't reveal himself to us, I said that he creates a lot of evil (religious wars/hate etc.) by not revealing himself to us. God is omnipotent (as stated in the definition), so he has the power to reveal himself to us. He's invisible by choice, not by nature as you seem to claim.
GOD never reveal himself to us we find him by ourselves ..... and for that every one choose their own way , no one can say this way is wronge or that is right only the end results tell the truth.
You can't say the God of different religions is the same God, when they contradict themselves so much. Is God 1, or 3, or many? How Powerful is he? Did Jesus exist? How did God create the Earth? Major world religions all disagree on these questions. If this is the same God, why is he explicitly revealing himself in different ways to different people? That also brings me back to the beginning of this argument, why are you more likely to have different divine revelations (or lack of)based on geography and ethnicity? Why would a God who loves us all equally do that? You didn't answer the question, you just tried to say that many contradicting things don't contradict, when they clearly do. A few things might match up, but the major details don't.
Conclusion/ Appeal to voters
My opponent has only responded to some of my arguments, and when doing so has only made a few vague statements. I believe I have refuted these claim pretty well, and so far I believe I have earned the arguments point. I also don't really know if this counts, but my opponents grammar and spelling have been abysmal this whole debate. I don't normally like to award the Legibility point myself, but their writing has gotten in the way of me reading their arguments multiple times, which I think falls under the criteria for awarding that point.
Anyways, thanks for Participating Con, and thanks to anyone reading this for voting. I yield the floor.
Previous :GOD have complete free will and independent from everything but GOD not participate in this world and ofcourse he don't deserve to do anything in world after GOD create humans , while humans have half free will as they depend on other things and for that humans participate in this world . becoz humans need it and humans r like GODs of this world after Great GOD . Humans r ambitious so we do bad and good to achieve something.
Natural : pain | evil | Death | Disasters
After Great GOD we r sub-gods (humans) of this world , who learn to be gods from this world , of this world.
Evil belongs to us (humans or sub-Gods ) not to Great GOD and the other thing is that whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , .......) happens in this world is not concern of God , its part of this world and that's not bad , we r humans and we learn and tackle it , that's why we r sub-Gods
Previous :we r not able to see him and we r in playground of world where we and GOD paly hide and seek . GOD never reveal himself to us we find him by ourselves ..... and for that every one choose their own way , no one can say this way is wronge or that is right only the end results tell the truth.
we and GOD play hide and seek : hide and seek is a game in which one participant ( john) find other hidden participants (friends of John) , game ends only when john find all his friends
You can't say the God of different religions is the same God , If this is the same God, why is he explicitly revealing himself in different ways to different people?
Ans in short : every one choose their own way
Explanation : as u say i can't say God of different religions is same God , ofcourse at that spot i say too that : " Religion/s r man-made , religion is not concern of God"
our f* forefathers make this shit (religion) , haha so just f* with it don't f* on it. every one choose their own way to find the friend (God).
our Great God is free from religion.
I remember one line of a atheist scholar : " when good ppl do bad things that is religion "
Conclusion/ Appeal to voters
(religion) : just f* with it , don't f* on it
if u really want to believe in something then only believe in urself , so may u find the truth ( may be that is God)
Don't believe in Pro or Con , becoz we r sub-Gods we r just able to make u confuse
As u see i tell u truth and | Y | the one who deserve ur votes
Conclusion/ Appeal to Pro (only for Pro/Con)
My opponent has only ...... made a few vague statements ..., my opponents grammar and spelling have been abysmal this whole debate....... reading .... arguments multiple times....... I think falls under the criteria for awarding that point
Never forget that | Y | r rational gladiators .... but not a beggar ..... | Y | r not greedy for votes .... but for truth
| Y | never win by convincing ppl , but by revealing truth to them
but Y f* very well by rational thoughts
Pro/Con = Y
f * = fight , fun , fierce ..... depend on situation
Round 3
After Great GOD we r sub-gods (humans) of this world , who learn to be gods from this world , of this world.Evil belongs to us (humans or sub-Gods ) not to Great GOD and the other thing is that whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , .......) happens in this world is not concern of God , its part of this world and that's not bad , we r humans and we learn and tackle it , that's why we r sub-Gods
What do you mean it doesn't concern God, it has everything to do with him. As provided in the description, God is all-loving and so it is his concern when humans are suffering due to evil he created. Natural evil absolutely is bad, because it causes harm. Think about it this way, would you rather live in a world where you felt happiness all the time, regardless of circumstances, or this current world. God gave us the ability to feel pain and sorrow, why?
we and GOD play hide and seek : hide and seek is a game in which one participant ( john) find other hidden participants (friends of John) , game ends only when john find all his friends
But what happens when John's friend stops playing without telling him? This is the problem of Non-resistant Non-believers. I'm an Atheist, but do you think I want that to be the case? I would much rather know that there is an all powerful being who created the universe, and he loves me infinitely, and yet that being hasn't revealed himself to me, or millions of other people. Why does God openly refuse us when we look for him? An all loving God certainly wouldn't.
Ans in short : every one choose their own wayExplanation : as u say i can't say God of different religions is same God , ofcourse at that spot i say too that : " Religion/s r man-made , religion is not concern of God"our f* forefathers make this shit (religion) , haha so just f* with it don't f* on it. every one choose their own way to find the friend (God).our Great God is free from religion.
Okay, well then why has God created so many wars and problems on Earth by revealing himself in different ways, or not revealing himself to whole races of people? God may not have created religion, but we created it about him, and we have vastly different revelations about his nature based on nothing besides just geography. You still haven't answered the question.
I'll save my conclusion for next round, in the meantime, you still haven't provided any arguments for your side, just rebuttals. You may want to do that FYI. Thanks for your time Con, I yield the floor.
Moozer325 my dear and holy opponent , u not need to say thanks as much i need it to thanks and appreciate, u r a great debater who honor me and debate with me.
As in this regard i try my best to reveal the truth .
V.I.P questions of pro:
What do you mean it doesn't concern God, it has everything to do with him. As provided in the description, God is all-loving and so it is his concern when humans are suffering due to evil he created. Natural evil absolutely is bad, because it causes harm. Think about it this way, would you rather live in a world where you felt happiness all the time, regardless of circumstances, or this current world. God gave us the ability to feel pain and sorrow, why?
V.I.P Ans of con :
Evil belongs to us (humans or sub-Gods ) not to Great GOD and the other thing is that whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , wars.....) happens in this world is not concern of God , its part of this world and that's not bad , we r humans and we learn and tackle it , that's why we r sub-Gods
And u see humans have dreamt of Utopia , humans learn from this world , and try to be better more and more , I hope one day humans make Utopia into reality. Humans not blame the world or the creator of the world , they just learn and make it better on their own and they can what they want .
Why does God openly refuse us when we look for him? An all loving God certainly wouldn't.
becoz we and GOD play hide and seek and its not good to give up , we r humans and we never give up.
according to con:
AnonYmous_Icon not provided any arguments for his side, just rebuttals
but i do both , and in better way just 4 U
Round 4
Thanks so much for participating in this debate with me Con, I had a lot of fun and I hope you did too. I'll do a few final rebuttals, and then get on to my conclusion.
becoz we and GOD play hide and seek and its not good to give up , we r humans and we never give up.
But we shouldn't even have to try, right? Besides, some people die without ever having a relationship with God. Again, he's clearly refusing us, why?
And u see humans have dreamt of Utopia , humans learn from this world , and try to be better more and more , I hope one day humans make Utopia into reality. Humans not blame the world or the creator of the world , they just learn and make it better on their own and they can what they want .
First of all, that still doesn't address the problem of natural evil. Secondly, if humans were provided with a perfect world to begin with, they would have no need to cause pain, thus God technically had the ability to make the world perfect, yet chose not to. Finally, God may not cause all pain directly, but he did give us the capacity to feel it, thus technically causing pain in another way.
To recap, God creates pain through natural evil, gives people the opportunity to cause others pain, and on top of all that, gives us the ability to feel pain. Why would a loving God do that?
Conclusion
To conclude, my opponent has still not upheld their burden of proof, only provided rebuttals. They have also just reiterated the same argument since the beginning, regardless if I have provided counter arguments. In addition, the responses to some of my other points (such as religious displacement) have been very short and they have not followed up on them.
I believe I have won the arguments point. No one should be awarded sources due to the nature of the debate, and my opponents conduct has been phenomenal, so that point should not be awarded either. I generally don't like to award the legibility point myself, but my opponents grammar and sentence structure has been abysmally this whole debate. Normally, I wouldn't care, but this has impeded my ability to understand their arguments to the full extent, so at least consider awarding that point.
That you so much for reading, and vote Pro!
Moozer325 say many good things before the conclusion but after it..... alright
Haha , when i read the conclusion i still don't understand , that u actually try to correct me as i do for u , or just criticize on my way of debating in front of voters/audience ..........
That you so much for reading, and vote Pro! ( that = thank )
ur conclusion is really out of blue Pro! Yeah My Holy Pro u pretty good to manipulate innocent ppl
but those who try to find truth they don't trap in ur trap
alright , but i like to clap on ur performance well-done
Moozer325 like to ask :some people die without ever having a relationship with God. he's ( God ) clearly refusing us, why?God creates pain through natural evil, gives people the opportunity to cause others pain, and on top of all that, gives us the ability to feel pain. Why would a loving God do that?
It seems u Don't blame ppl and don't blame God , maybe that's true , if that true i like that , but if not then the thing is that GOD don't interfere in this world after make it , and the ppl just try to find the truth , and previous ppl r teachers of next ppl , that's a good thing ..... there's not point of sadness or blame
GOD and ppl all r good and beautiful in their way ...... we and GOD play hide and seek game just enjoy the game , learn and play it in better way as u can
who break the rule or game or want to make it , then i told u without struggle if u find something then even that is everything u don't care sometime about it
We r not dead , we have a life to make something great and better , lets make it , becoz we can get what we don't have yet by our grace not by the some code of religion or divine relation , we r all divine if u know that
Thank you so much for reading or finding the truth , and vote the Pro! that's the appeal of Pro and order of his Pro AnonYmous_Icon by ur grace
votes plz