1600
rating
24
debates
72.92%
won
Topic
#5765
It is more likely that no god* exists rather than any form of god existing.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with 8 points ahead, the winner is...
Moozer325
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
1495
rating
9
debates
50.0%
won
Description
Alright, it’s been a while since I’ve done an atheism debate and I miss it kinda.
God: a perfectly good, omnipotent and omniscient being that created the universe.
Please note that neither side has to prove that god is real or not, you just have to make a case that your side is more probable than the other.
Round 1
Introduction
My strategy for this debate is going to be just throwing out every good argument there is for atheism and hoping at least one of them convinces the voters. That said, I apologize if this gets to be a little long, but I create this debate with the express purpose of it being very in depth, so I think the time limit and character limit will support that. One final thing before I begin, I acknowledge that the primary burden of proof rests with me. I must have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely God does not exist, and Con must either have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely that God does exist, or demonstrate that I have not provided enough evidence to support my side. With that, here we go.
The Problem of Evil
This is one of my favorite arguments for atheism. At its most basic form, it goes something like this:
Premise 1: God is all loving (this is provided in my description of God, so by agreeing to this debate, you agreed to this premise)
Premise 2: The World has Evil in it
Premise 3: An all loving God would not create a world with evil
Conclusion: An all loving God cannot exist.
That by itself is probably the most common argument against god's existence, but what makes it my favorite is all the little other arguments that branch off from it. For example, there is the problem of animal evil. God could have created all animals so that they were photosynthetic (they get their energy from the sun), but God made it specifically so that many animals must eat other animals to survive. Why would an all loving God create a world where you must commit evil to others to survive?
Many challenges to this argument say that it must be a part of his cosmic design. There must be some reason. Sometimes, the reason provided is that without some evil, you cannot have certain types of good. Eg. Without fear you can't have bravery, without challenges you can't have accomplishment etc. But if I was brave enough to save someone from a burning building, it still would have been better for there to be no fire. There would have been no property damage, so damage to me and the victims bodies, and the loved ones would have been spared the horror of seeing their family member stuck in a burning building. So, I ask you, does it make more sense that an all loving God created a world with Evil just so there could be some other kinds of good, or would he have just have created a world where there is no Evil, and you always feel positive emotions? I feel that it makes more sense to just have a perfect world.
Additionally, If he was God, then why couldn’t he have made it so we feel emotions like accomplishment, and bravery regardless of actually having done anything. Emotions are emotions, and if God is truly all powerful (within possibility), then it would make more sense to have a world where we feel these emotions constantly. I know I would prefer a world like that.
And again, there is the problem of Animal suffering. Why would God make it so that some animals have to eat others to survive? I see no good coming out of this?
Because of this, I feel that it is more likely that the universe is simply indifferent to our suffering, and there is no all loving being trying to maximize our happiness.
Non-resistant Non-Believers/ Divine Hiddenness
This one is pretty simple. Why would an all loving God knowingly not reveal himself to people who are willing? A non-resistant non-believer is someone who wants to believe in God and is open to believing in God, but still has not had God reveal himself to them, and so does not believe. A perfectly loving God wouldn’t want someone like this to suffer. If a person actively wants to believe in God, and actively wants to have a personal relationship with God, then why would an all loving God deny this to them?
Theists often respond to this one by saying that God must be acting in the best interests of the person, and they don't know it, but that brings us back to my use of the word "likely" in the title.
It seems most probable (to me at least) that in order to be perfectly loving, god would want to have a personal relationship with all of his creation, especially if that creation desired one. It is possible that he is acting in some mysterious way, but I think that scenario seems to be a bit too complicated. As Occam's Razor says, the simplest explanation is often the correct one.
Religious displacement
This is another relatively simple one, but it is also a very powerful one, at least I think so. Basically, If God is all loving, and loves every one of his creations equally, then why are you more likely to have a divine visit if you live in a different country. For example, Thailand is about 92% Atheist. On the other end, India has a 99% rate of people saying that they are religious when polled.
If a god existed, you would expect to find that he has revealed himself to people indiscriminately of nationality, but clearly that is not true.
Another addition to this puzzle is the variety of religions around the world. If there was an all loving god, it would make sense for him to reveal himself equally to people regardless of race and location. If that were true, you would expect all major religions to arrive at roughly the same idea. They might get some minor things different, but as we see today, to there are so many different religions with so many different beliefs. I find it hard to believe that a perfectly all loving god would allow this.
Divine Hiddenness (again, but different)
This one actually is different from my second point, but I just couldn’t think of anything better to call it.
I don’t think my opponent will object to the fact that region can cause conflict, specifically over which one is the correct one. While it is true that region only directly caused around 7% of wars, it is still a major problem that it caused any wars. And besides that even, religion one of the biggest dividing factors between us humans. If a war wasn’t directly caused by religion, then there is a good chance that the opposing sides had different majority faith systems, and this can be used by demagogues to whip the population into a frenzy of hatred.
With all of this in mind, God is clearly causing much harm by not revealing himself directly to all of us. If god were to appear before a massive gathering of us, and state clearly what religion is correct (if any), it would stop all the religious fighting. By not intervening, God is passively letting all this violence go on, and thus cannot be perfectly good.
Again, this isn’t a direct proof of anything. God may have his reasons for being so hidden, but it seems most likely that the universe is simply indifferent to our problems.
Conclusion
Those are some of the best arguments for atheism out there. There are some others, but I chose not to include them because they either weren’t that good, or I was too lazy. Sure, it is still a possibility that god can exist, but I believe that these arguments demonstrate that it is at least improbable.
Thank you, I yield the floor.
Introduction
For this debate I like to apply tactics of Socrates the Great to confuse those who r influenced blindly by my respected Opponent's Motion.
And to display truth to those who like to know it.
The Problem of Evil | Religious displacement |Divine Hiddenness:
God is great and origin of goodness....
innocence , love , wisdom , grace , truth is the fingerprints of GOD. GOD is all ...... love...wisdom.....innocence.... grace.... truth...
God is creator of everything and creator of u and me , and gives us free will and intelligence which improved with passage of time . everything is caged into nature except us . only we r able to do anything against nature .
Animal eat each other lion eat deer.... eat.... grass....... that's just their nature that is not evil
But when we learn from them and do good things for mankind and some times what we do is bad for everything...... that is not fault of GOD , that is our fault of humans as we enjoy our freedom to fly and to reach the blue sky for goodness and sometimes result r worse or not according to our expectations .... that's okay and the fact is that we r the creator of evil .
GOD have complete free will and independent from everything but he still not participate in this world and ofcourse he don't deserve to do anything in world after GOD create humans while humans have half free will as they depend on other things and for that we participate in this world . becoz we need it and we r like GODs of this world after Great GOD . Humans r ambitious so we do bad and good to achieve something.
We r the children of GOD ( special creature of GOD much than others , it doesn't mean GOD is our father ) but after all we can't see the GOD becoz we r not able see GOD it doesn't mean , GOD is bad who don't reveal his self to us and still see destruction and fight among religions and humans.
nope ! nope ! at all , we r not able to see him and we r in playground of world where we and GOD paly hide and seek . GOD never reveal himself to us we find him by ourselves ..... and for that every one choose their own way , no one can say this way is wronge or that is right only the end results tell the truth.
Conclusions :
but before results comes its better for humans to be believe in their own selves and deal with love , grace and wisdom by their intelligence to find the innocent truth (GOD) who is without any lie.
Round 2
For this debate I like to apply tactics of Socrates the Great to confuse those who r influenced blindly by my respected Opponent's Motion.And to display truth to those who like to know it.
First off, I always love a good Socratic questioning. Should be fun, lets see what you have in mind.
God is great and origin of goodness....innocence , love , wisdom , grace , truth is the fingerprints of GOD. GOD is all ...... love...wisdom.....innocence.... grace.... truth...God is creator of everything and creator of u and me , and gives us free will and intelligence which improved with passage of time . everything is caged into nature except us . only we r able to do anything against nature .
I didn't specifically put that in my definition, but I think it's encapsulated in "Omnipotent" and "Perfectly Loving", so I won't object to that definition.
Animal eat each other lion eat deer.... eat.... grass....... that's just their nature that is not evil
I mean, yeah it kinda is. I didn't provide a definition for good or evil, and that's my bad, but being eaten by another animal certainly causes pain, does it not? If God was all-loving, he certainly wouldn't want any of his creations to feel pain whatsoever, so he wouldn't make it so that animals must eat each other. You say that it is just the nature of the animals, but God made it their nature. I never necessarily said it was evil, but it sure causes a lot of unnecessary pain, which an All-loving god wouldn't allow.
But when we learn from them and do good things for mankind and some times what we do is bad for everything...... that is not fault of GOD , that is our fault of humans as we enjoy our freedom to fly and to reach the blue sky for goodness and sometimes result r worse or not according to our expectations .... that's okay and the fact is that we r the creator of evil .
Sure, some evil is borne from humans, and it makes sense that some evil must be permitted in order for us to have free will. However, what about natural evil? What about Earthquakes and Hurricanes, Genetic defects that cause pain, Disease, and of course, death. Even if you believe in an afterlife, Death still causes lots of pain for the people who knew that person. Clearly, not all evil is natural.
Beyond that even, God may not create the circumstances in which we experience some pain, but he did give us the ability to feel pain. He may not be the one giving us this pain, but he brought it into the world, which isn't something that an all-loving God would do.
but after all we can't see the GOD becoz we r not able see GOD it doesn't mean , GOD is bad who don't reveal his self to us and still see destruction and fight among religions and humans.
No, I never said that God was bad because he didn't reveal himself to us, I said that he creates a lot of evil (religious wars/hate etc.) by not revealing himself to us. God is omnipotent (as stated in the definition), so he has the power to reveal himself to us. He's invisible by choice, not by nature as you seem to claim.
GOD never reveal himself to us we find him by ourselves ..... and for that every one choose their own way , no one can say this way is wronge or that is right only the end results tell the truth.
You can't say the God of different religions is the same God, when they contradict themselves so much. Is God 1, or 3, or many? How Powerful is he? Did Jesus exist? How did God create the Earth? Major world religions all disagree on these questions. If this is the same God, why is he explicitly revealing himself in different ways to different people? That also brings me back to the beginning of this argument, why are you more likely to have different divine revelations (or lack of)based on geography and ethnicity? Why would a God who loves us all equally do that? You didn't answer the question, you just tried to say that many contradicting things don't contradict, when they clearly do. A few things might match up, but the major details don't.
Conclusion/ Appeal to voters
My opponent has only responded to some of my arguments, and when doing so has only made a few vague statements. I believe I have refuted these claim pretty well, and so far I believe I have earned the arguments point. I also don't really know if this counts, but my opponents grammar and spelling have been abysmal this whole debate. I don't normally like to award the Legibility point myself, but their writing has gotten in the way of me reading their arguments multiple times, which I think falls under the criteria for awarding that point.
Anyways, thanks for Participating Con, and thanks to anyone reading this for voting. I yield the floor.
Previous :GOD have complete free will and independent from everything but GOD not participate in this world and ofcourse he don't deserve to do anything in world after GOD create humans , while humans have half free will as they depend on other things and for that humans participate in this world . becoz humans need it and humans r like GODs of this world after Great GOD . Humans r ambitious so we do bad and good to achieve something.
Natural : pain | evil | Death | Disasters
After Great GOD we r sub-gods (humans) of this world , who learn to be gods from this world , of this world.
Evil belongs to us (humans or sub-Gods ) not to Great GOD and the other thing is that whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , .......) happens in this world is not concern of God , its part of this world and that's not bad , we r humans and we learn and tackle it , that's why we r sub-Gods
Previous :we r not able to see him and we r in playground of world where we and GOD paly hide and seek . GOD never reveal himself to us we find him by ourselves ..... and for that every one choose their own way , no one can say this way is wronge or that is right only the end results tell the truth.
we and GOD play hide and seek : hide and seek is a game in which one participant ( john) find other hidden participants (friends of John) , game ends only when john find all his friends
You can't say the God of different religions is the same God , If this is the same God, why is he explicitly revealing himself in different ways to different people?
Ans in short : every one choose their own way
Explanation : as u say i can't say God of different religions is same God , ofcourse at that spot i say too that : " Religion/s r man-made , religion is not concern of God"
our f* forefathers make this shit (religion) , haha so just f* with it don't f* on it. every one choose their own way to find the friend (God).
our Great God is free from religion.
I remember one line of a atheist scholar : " when good ppl do bad things that is religion "
Conclusion/ Appeal to voters
(religion) : just f* with it , don't f* on it
if u really want to believe in something then only believe in urself , so may u find the truth ( may be that is God)
Don't believe in Pro or Con , becoz we r sub-Gods we r just able to make u confuse
As u see i tell u truth and | Y | the one who deserve ur votes
Conclusion/ Appeal to Pro (only for Pro/Con)
My opponent has only ...... made a few vague statements ..., my opponents grammar and spelling have been abysmal this whole debate....... reading .... arguments multiple times....... I think falls under the criteria for awarding that point
Never forget that | Y | r rational gladiators .... but not a beggar ..... | Y | r not greedy for votes .... but for truth
| Y | never win by convincing ppl , but by revealing truth to them
but Y f* very well by rational thoughts
Pro/Con = Y
f * = fight , fun , fierce ..... depend on situation
Round 3
After Great GOD we r sub-gods (humans) of this world , who learn to be gods from this world , of this world.Evil belongs to us (humans or sub-Gods ) not to Great GOD and the other thing is that whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , .......) happens in this world is not concern of God , its part of this world and that's not bad , we r humans and we learn and tackle it , that's why we r sub-Gods
What do you mean it doesn't concern God, it has everything to do with him. As provided in the description, God is all-loving and so it is his concern when humans are suffering due to evil he created. Natural evil absolutely is bad, because it causes harm. Think about it this way, would you rather live in a world where you felt happiness all the time, regardless of circumstances, or this current world. God gave us the ability to feel pain and sorrow, why?
we and GOD play hide and seek : hide and seek is a game in which one participant ( john) find other hidden participants (friends of John) , game ends only when john find all his friends
But what happens when John's friend stops playing without telling him? This is the problem of Non-resistant Non-believers. I'm an Atheist, but do you think I want that to be the case? I would much rather know that there is an all powerful being who created the universe, and he loves me infinitely, and yet that being hasn't revealed himself to me, or millions of other people. Why does God openly refuse us when we look for him? An all loving God certainly wouldn't.
Ans in short : every one choose their own wayExplanation : as u say i can't say God of different religions is same God , ofcourse at that spot i say too that : " Religion/s r man-made , religion is not concern of God"our f* forefathers make this shit (religion) , haha so just f* with it don't f* on it. every one choose their own way to find the friend (God).our Great God is free from religion.
Okay, well then why has God created so many wars and problems on Earth by revealing himself in different ways, or not revealing himself to whole races of people? God may not have created religion, but we created it about him, and we have vastly different revelations about his nature based on nothing besides just geography. You still haven't answered the question.
I'll save my conclusion for next round, in the meantime, you still haven't provided any arguments for your side, just rebuttals. You may want to do that FYI. Thanks for your time Con, I yield the floor.
Moozer325 my dear and holy opponent , u not need to say thanks as much i need it to thanks and appreciate, u r a great debater who honor me and debate with me.
As in this regard i try my best to reveal the truth .
V.I.P questions of pro:
What do you mean it doesn't concern God, it has everything to do with him. As provided in the description, God is all-loving and so it is his concern when humans are suffering due to evil he created. Natural evil absolutely is bad, because it causes harm. Think about it this way, would you rather live in a world where you felt happiness all the time, regardless of circumstances, or this current world. God gave us the ability to feel pain and sorrow, why?
V.I.P Ans of con :
Evil belongs to us (humans or sub-Gods ) not to Great GOD and the other thing is that whatever (Earth-quakes , deceases, death, pain , wars.....) happens in this world is not concern of God , its part of this world and that's not bad , we r humans and we learn and tackle it , that's why we r sub-Gods
And u see humans have dreamt of Utopia , humans learn from this world , and try to be better more and more , I hope one day humans make Utopia into reality. Humans not blame the world or the creator of the world , they just learn and make it better on their own and they can what they want .
Why does God openly refuse us when we look for him? An all loving God certainly wouldn't.
becoz we and GOD play hide and seek and its not good to give up , we r humans and we never give up.
according to con:
AnonYmous_Icon not provided any arguments for his side, just rebuttals
but i do both , and in better way just 4 U
Round 4
Thanks so much for participating in this debate with me Con, I had a lot of fun and I hope you did too. I'll do a few final rebuttals, and then get on to my conclusion.
becoz we and GOD play hide and seek and its not good to give up , we r humans and we never give up.
But we shouldn't even have to try, right? Besides, some people die without ever having a relationship with God. Again, he's clearly refusing us, why?
And u see humans have dreamt of Utopia , humans learn from this world , and try to be better more and more , I hope one day humans make Utopia into reality. Humans not blame the world or the creator of the world , they just learn and make it better on their own and they can what they want .
First of all, that still doesn't address the problem of natural evil. Secondly, if humans were provided with a perfect world to begin with, they would have no need to cause pain, thus God technically had the ability to make the world perfect, yet chose not to. Finally, God may not cause all pain directly, but he did give us the capacity to feel it, thus technically causing pain in another way.
To recap, God creates pain through natural evil, gives people the opportunity to cause others pain, and on top of all that, gives us the ability to feel pain. Why would a loving God do that?
Conclusion
To conclude, my opponent has still not upheld their burden of proof, only provided rebuttals. They have also just reiterated the same argument since the beginning, regardless if I have provided counter arguments. In addition, the responses to some of my other points (such as religious displacement) have been very short and they have not followed up on them.
I believe I have won the arguments point. No one should be awarded sources due to the nature of the debate, and my opponents conduct has been phenomenal, so that point should not be awarded either. I generally don't like to award the legibility point myself, but my opponents grammar and sentence structure has been abysmally this whole debate. Normally, I wouldn't care, but this has impeded my ability to understand their arguments to the full extent, so at least consider awarding that point.
That you so much for reading, and vote Pro!
Moozer325 say many good things before the conclusion but after it..... alright
Haha , when i read the conclusion i still don't understand , that u actually try to correct me as i do for u , or just criticize on my way of debating in front of voters/audience ..........
That you so much for reading, and vote Pro! ( that = thank )
ur conclusion is really out of blue Pro! Yeah My Holy Pro u pretty good to manipulate innocent ppl
but those who try to find truth they don't trap in ur trap
alright , but i like to clap on ur performance well-done
Moozer325 like to ask :some people die without ever having a relationship with God. he's ( God ) clearly refusing us, why?God creates pain through natural evil, gives people the opportunity to cause others pain, and on top of all that, gives us the ability to feel pain. Why would a loving God do that?
It seems u Don't blame ppl and don't blame God , maybe that's true , if that true i like that , but if not then the thing is that GOD don't interfere in this world after make it , and the ppl just try to find the truth , and previous ppl r teachers of next ppl , that's a good thing ..... there's not point of sadness or blame
GOD and ppl all r good and beautiful in their way ...... we and GOD play hide and seek game just enjoy the game , learn and play it in better way as u can
who break the rule or game or want to make it , then i told u without struggle if u find something then even that is everything u don't care sometime about it
We r not dead , we have a life to make something great and better , lets make it , becoz we can get what we don't have yet by our grace not by the some code of religion or divine relation , we r all divine if u know that
Thank you so much for reading or finding the truth , and vote the Pro! that's the appeal of Pro and order of his Pro AnonYmous_Icon by ur grace
If I critisize either side, it is not because I think I could do better, it's just my surface thoughts.
Reason for Vote Part 1
R1 Moozer325
My thoughts on Pro R1
I think Pro brings up fair questions that bother people on the existence of God.
I don't think people are unable to offer excuses or possibilities, but. . . Such offerings work better on people who identify God in certain ways or have faith.
Someone spiritually deaf or blind, could not be convinced by such, I'd think.
And even those who supposedly have the ears and eyes for it, how much do they 'truly see, 'truly hear?
Though perhaps it is enough to know 'something is there, to have a 'direction of what one should value, how one should act.
I'm still an Atheist though.
Anyway, I think Pro's round 1 would be considered decent enough arguments by most people.
Religious people often believe in an afterlife, or a reoccurrence.
Is a human lifespan that long compared to X? I say X as I don't know what an afterlife 'would be.
For reoccurrence, doesn't some version of Hinduism believe in Brahman as a God, something or other about everything being one. And people reincarnating trying to be better people each time, learning lessons, but also there's other people who are also them in a sense also trying. Just the nature of existence to have evil.
. . . Though you define God as
"God: a perfectly good, omnipotent and omniscient being that created the universe."
What does omnipotent 'mean?
People often don't mean the ability to make 1+1=3,
One could argue that God is limited by logic, while still being omnipotent.
For the Christian side though, I've always liked Job.
Reminds me of the Parable of the Invisible Gardener.
But such an argument is based on itself, and could be flipped to there being a Gardener, and yet the Atheist insisting every action is a mirage.
'Pro's ideal God, would behave as they want,
Yet my thoughts again go to Job.
'Is one more likely to have a divine visit in a different country?
If you have proof of even one divine visit, wouldn't such prove God?
If one has a more 'Deist view of God, whether a Deist God that 'has appeared or one that hasn't. Wouldn't such Deists be able to see God even in Atheist countries?
Who is to say what a divine visit 'is?
Do we 'know God is passive?
If God has some value or circumstance of the World, some self imposed rule on how they should act, does this mean they are not Omnipotent?
If I make a rule to myself not to stab random strangers in the street, it would not be true that I am incapable of stabbing random strangers in the street.
R1 Con
I thought the Socratic method was open ended questions that force the opponent to defeat themself?
I'd argue Con makes 'statements and assumptions a fair bit here.
I'm also doubtful that we are not caged into nature ourselves.
Some believers in God have nonstandard ideas of Free Will, see Calvinists.
"God doesn't make the world this way. We do.” - Rorsach
Though people disagree on 'whether God 'does or doesn't.
Hands on, people still argue God is Good or Bad,
Hands off, people still argue God is Good or Bad.
My mind returns to the Invisible Gardener,
What do we define as God, and how much can we conclude of objects that we cannot 'see.
Should it have been more likely that no X exists, earlier in history, before we could 'show them through a microscope?
Or because their definition years later would be slightly different?
Sometimes objects, laws, and people are identified peripherally, through logical necessity.
What makes something more or less likely?
(Thoughts here my own, not Cons)
My thoughts on Con R1
Con gives assertions on what God is, and seems to be identifying God as Truth?
Which I suppose is a bit of problem of Pros debate, though they 'did give a definition of God, it might be a bit broad.
Hm, is Con identifying God as a being?
While Con says what something 'is, Con doesn't say why such would exist, or what proof there is of such an existence.
Reason for Vote Part 2
R2 Moozer325
Are humans evil for creating new humans to live?
Or animals that we eat?
What did/does existence require to fulfill God's purpose?
Begging the question on my part, I suppose.
I wonder at how well a person would emphasize without pain?
One sees AI sometimes brutalized in fiction, as a necessity of sentience, but eh.
. . . There is more than physical pain I suppose, emotional pain for instance. . . Hm, if humans removed all pain from all organisms on Earth, would such 'also have been part of Gods plan?
But then, I don't think Pro 'required God to have a plan, just to be
"perfectly good, omnipotent and omniscient being that created the universe."
Which doesn't 'require plans really.
Still whether this theoretical God is hands on or not, it's not an either or. Can be a spectrum.
Does God need be responsible for every minutia?
Different Theists have different answers I'd think.
Omniquantism
http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1400/fc01386.htm
Goes on for a few comics on the subject.
Pro R2 Concluding thoughts
"I acknowledge that the primary burden of proof rests with me. I must have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely God does not exist, and Con must either have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely that God does exist, or demonstrate that I have not provided enough evidence to support my side." - Pro R1
Hm, leaning towards Pro, but something feels off about debate.
R2 Con
Sub Gods?
Why are we Sub Gods?
I assume because of Con earlier arguments about our 'seemingly greater control other environment than other organisms on Earth.
Con seems to be taking hands off God approach.
And a bit Pantheist God approach?
Or do they maintain God is a person?
Okay, Con suggests that God exists separate of manmade religions,
But why does such prove God needs to exist?
"Con must either have sufficient evidence to prove that it is more likely that God does exist, or demonstrate that I have not provided enough evidence to support my side." - Pro R1
Hm, "or demonstrate that I have not provided enough evidence to support my side." is probably the one I'll try to factor at the end.
Reason for Vote Part 3
R3 Pro
One could argue we have pain and sorrow as training wheels.
Or that feeling happy all the time isn't everything.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/n5TqCuizyJDfAPjkr/the-baby-eating-aliens-1-8
I'm again reminded of Job.
But admit to many such can come off as God works in mysterious ways, and that such an argument can not be satisfying to people.
Hm, 'has Pro proved God cannot exist?
Big part of their argument is identifying God as all loving, and arguing if God loved us they would do more.
One can rebut that God may be all powerful, but what does all powerful 'mean?
1+1=3?
If it means something less, then there can be reasons for our pain, like a parent's action or nonaction towards child in pain, necessary experience or part of existence. Lot of religious people believe in an after,
With how long some people have been dead, has their lives ended 'there? Never learning? Never experiencing? Never being something next or more?
(I'm still a materialist)
'Does Cons counterarguments hold up?
Con is not so much proving God exists to me, so much as arguing against Cons reasons for God not existing.
Well, Pro addressed that in this round, arguing it 'does have something to do with God, depends on Cons next round arguments.
R3 Con
Currently leaning towards Pro,
Socratic method might be a bad method when there are limited rounds in a debate.
It 'also can be flawed when you assume the opponent will give you the answer you want.
Reason for Vote Part 4
R4 Pro
New International Version
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
https://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-6.htm
New International Version
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
https://biblehub.com/matthew/13-13.htm
Course it seems probable that 'some people would believe if they saw, or understand what they hear.
But maybe they wouldn't see or hear what was 'important.
Perhaps there is something in our uncertainty, yet wanting the right of existence.
"He [God] wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger, than when a human, no longer desiring, but intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
— The Screwtape Letters, letter VIII, C. S. Lewis
Serenity (2005)
"A world without sin."
Do you believe in a God that worked through evolution?
R4 Con
I'd say goes a bit off topic, even if it's positive about humans trying their best and doing right in the world.
Debate Conclusions
Pro has a specific idea of God they argue against, and assume a great amount of freedom by said God.
Con asserts God is a bunch of good stuff, and that humans are responsible for evil.
Pro argues God cannot be separate from human actions.
Pro argues why all the different ideas of religion, why does God not more obviously act and speak.
Con argues we all find God differently, and that they are something to find.
Arguments-wise, I don't think Pro was 'so great,
But they 'seemed more on topic and defining of what they meant by God.
Using You instead of U or Are instead of R,
Helps with legibility, Legibility to Pro.
Legibility 'matters for debates, as it better helps people read and understand your arguments,
So I'm also voting arguments to Pro,
Though 'something feels off about Pros arguments and definitions.
Conduct equal, sources equal.
votes plz