Instigator / Pro
8
1553
rating
77
debates
55.19%
won
Topic
#5677
Women are only attracted to your SMV, not who you are as a person (for Strawbbycake no one else will be accepted unless female)
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2
After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...
Strawbbycake
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
14
1500
rating
8
debates
62.5%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
SMV = Sexual Market Value, the things that make you desirable on a purely surface level.
Who you are as a person = the intricacies of your personality beyond the generic things all women are attracted to such as "confidence".
I will list the factors that contribute to your SMV in order of most important to least important.
hygiene > face > height >frame > physique > hair > dick > style > money > game
Personality is the LEAST important factor and it is only important in the sense that women want you to act like an "alpha male" and have "game" i.e social/manipulation skills. No woman will fall in love with you for your personality alone if not attracted to you in general, this merely leads to friendzoning.
There have been cases where heinous criminals are sent love letters by thousands of women who don't even know them because they are attractive. There are also "chadfishing" experiments where men have catfished women with pictures of attractive guys and put in their bio that they are sex offenders who rape children or make blatantly misogynistic statements and thousands of women still match with them, simp for them and give out their numbers just because the picture has an attractive guy in it.
Women are nothing but walking eugenics machines who see you as subhuman if they think you have bad genes and think the shittiest guy on earth is amazing as long as he has a high SMV.
In order to win this debate, con should have to provide evidence of a woman who loves and simps for a mediocre SMV guy due to his personality on an equivalent level to women who love and simp for high SMV men who have mediocre personalities.
Con
#2
Well, I got a few examples of girls seeing past people’s faces.
Take Adriana Lima and Marko Jaric. The latter is quite mid, especially compared to Adriana Lima. According to an article by Nicki Swift (Why Adriana Lima Really Got Divorced (nickiswift.com), Adriana Lima fell for him because, in her own words, “He's smart and he makes me laugh. He's very funny, he's very athletic."
Only one of these factors was a bit shallow, but I don’t see looks being mentioned. Actually, that might have been an obstacle at first, as she also said, “It takes time for you to know. It's not like that, you meet the person and you click. You have to meet the person step by step and you start to know the good and the bad." Either that, or it shows looks and chemistry aren’t the only thing that matters to her. Whatever she really meant, she can prove herself to not be shallow.
Actually, she did proved herself again, even after divorcing Marko. She got with Andre Lemmers, who is ok, but still pretty mid when it comes to looks.
Lets look at a wholesome example, provided by the youtube channel Never Give Up
If you look at the guy behind the channel, well, let it speak for itself. He was the one who posted “Being Ugly: My Experience.” If you look at the pinned comment, you will see a lady who commented that she thought he was “kinda cute.” KINDA.
As someone who is considered unattractive, whenever someone says kinda (insert compliment about someone’s looks), it’s cuz they know you’re not super attractive but they can see a little bit of beauty in you, even if it’s not a lot. Well, in this case anyway. Most of the time, it’s used to try to comfort someone without meaning it.
Well this lady really did like him, because if you were to search on the channel, you’ll find a video of their wedding. And he posted a few updates about them as well.
Here’s the link to the channel: www.youtube.com/@NeverGiveUp-Main
They even had a baby.
I know that’s only two, but that’s because I have more info on those examples. There are other examples of an attractive girl getting with mid guys, or mid guys getting girls and not attractive guys.
For the former, I can think of bebadobee (the Filipino singer) and her boyfriend, JayZ and Beyonce. For the latter Central Cee and Madz, and there is this guy at my school that’s still single with maybe 3-4 other girls wanting him. How do I know he’s single? He wore white on Valentine’s day. There are three colors worn on that day, Pink for crushing, Red for being in a relationship, and White for single. And I didn’t see him with any girls for months afterward.
There are actually quite a few mid guys that teen girls go crazy over on TikTok as well.
Maybe it’s just me, but:
Ian Somerhalder, Jacob Elordi, Tom Holland, Cillian Murphy, Ross Lynch, Robert Pattinson, Brad Pitt, Ryan Gosling, and maybe a couple of others are really mid and I don’t understand the hype.
But they get hype all the time, ESPECIALLY Tom Holland, Jacob Elordi, and Ian Somerhalder.
They get just as much hype, if not more, than a few other guys that are attractive. For example, Neymar.
This is supported by other people as well. There are jokes online all the time about how attractive ladies always get with the unattractive guys, because “he makes me laugh.” Literally what Lima said.
You’ll find questions about this all the time on various online forums, apps and more. How do I know this? Because it’s summer and I spend quite a decent amount of time online.
And there’s this line that gets passed around: “You can find an attractive lady with an ugly guy, but never a handsome man with an ugly woman.”
My point? That ladies seeing men for more than how they look is something that is observed by multiple people, and common enough to be a phenomenon that caught people’s attention. And it has substantial basis in reality for such observations to resonate with people everywhere.
And I’m not talking a group of 5, 12, 20 people, but thousands and probably MILLIONS.
Well, what are your thoughts?
Round 2
Pro
#3
Lets look at the examples more closely and see if they really debunk women being attracted to SMV rather than the intricacies of one's personality.
Don't just take a woman's word for it when she says she dates a guy because he is funny etc. There is usually a bigger picture at play and dating a man could also mean she is using him and not actually that attracted to him.
Marko Jaric's face is a 5/10 but he is literally 6'7 and height is right up there with facial aesthetic in the things that make up male SMV. He is also a famous basketball player which gives him status and he is in good shape.
In order for the example to matter, Adriana Lima would have to date a guy who is "smart and funny" but also not famous/rich and under 6 feet tall.
Her new bf Andre Lemmers is also about a 5/10 in his face, but he is 6 feet tall and makes more money than Marko. If personality matters so much why doesn't Adriana date a man who is poor and short for his personality? She never seems to go for guys under 6 feet or guys who aren't millionaires.
The Never Give Up example is a much stronger example, but it still falls short of proving your point. Notice how being "cute" was the first thing that his wife noticed and not something about his personality, and since he is only "kinda" that implies she would place a higher value on someone who is "very" since she values cuteness in selecting a mate.
If female attraction goes beyond my concept of SMV, it should be possible for a man who is under 10/10 in SMV to be seen as 10/10 due to his personality. Even if that means he is a 9 and a woman only gives him one point to make him a 10, there should be an example of a guy being seen as PERFECT to a woman because of his personality. If you cannot be seen as a 10 because of superficial things like not being tall enough or not being handsome enough, then it cheapens the entire idea of romantic love.
Bebadobees boyfriend is a 7/10 facially and he is significantly taller than her. He is also white which is a massive advantage in general, but especially for getting a south east asian gf since whiteness is seen as very desirable in their culture. Statistically most women have a preference for white men.
Jay-Z is mega rich and super high status and is 6'2 while Beyonce is 5'7.
Madeline Argy only dated Central Cee because he is wealthy/famous and broke up with him. She will probably find someone richer and/or more attractive.
Jacob Elordi: Once again a good jawline and looks significantly better or worse depending on the picture. These guys all have attractive features and modeling techniques that make their good features stand out and their bad features less prominent.
All of these guys follow the same pattern after looking that them and comparing different pictures. Also these girls who fawn over them don't know these guys, so how can the obsession be due to personality?
Lastly the stereotype about ugly guys getting with attractive girls is because people are harsher towards males when judging their attractiveness. For example if a guy is a 6 and gets with a girl who is also a 6, most people will see the female as more attractive. This isn't because the guy isn't a 6, but because a female 6 is pretty and a male 6 is mid.
It is also because it is more socially acceptable for women to make generalizations and stereotypes about men and not the reverse. If a woman complains that men hate fat women or hate tall women this is socially acceptable even though there are men who love fat women and men who love tall women. On the other hand if a male complains that women hate short men he is shamed and labelled as a misogynistic incel even though there is literally no such thing as a heterosexual woman who prefers short men over tall men.
Don't just take a woman's word for it when she says she dates a guy because he is funny etc. There is usually a bigger picture at play and dating a man could also mean she is using him and not actually that attracted to him.
Marko Jaric's face is a 5/10 but he is literally 6'7 and height is right up there with facial aesthetic in the things that make up male SMV. He is also a famous basketball player which gives him status and he is in good shape.
In order for the example to matter, Adriana Lima would have to date a guy who is "smart and funny" but also not famous/rich and under 6 feet tall.
Her new bf Andre Lemmers is also about a 5/10 in his face, but he is 6 feet tall and makes more money than Marko. If personality matters so much why doesn't Adriana date a man who is poor and short for his personality? She never seems to go for guys under 6 feet or guys who aren't millionaires.
The Never Give Up example is a much stronger example, but it still falls short of proving your point. Notice how being "cute" was the first thing that his wife noticed and not something about his personality, and since he is only "kinda" that implies she would place a higher value on someone who is "very" since she values cuteness in selecting a mate.
If female attraction goes beyond my concept of SMV, it should be possible for a man who is under 10/10 in SMV to be seen as 10/10 due to his personality. Even if that means he is a 9 and a woman only gives him one point to make him a 10, there should be an example of a guy being seen as PERFECT to a woman because of his personality. If you cannot be seen as a 10 because of superficial things like not being tall enough or not being handsome enough, then it cheapens the entire idea of romantic love.
Bebadobees boyfriend is a 7/10 facially and he is significantly taller than her. He is also white which is a massive advantage in general, but especially for getting a south east asian gf since whiteness is seen as very desirable in their culture. Statistically most women have a preference for white men.
Jay-Z is mega rich and super high status and is 6'2 while Beyonce is 5'7.
Madeline Argy only dated Central Cee because he is wealthy/famous and broke up with him. She will probably find someone richer and/or more attractive.
Ian Somerhalder: 6/10 but has distinct features that can make him appear to be an 8 with the right looksmaxxing/photography techniques. He has blue "hunter eyes" and good structure to his jawline and cheekbones.
All of these guys follow the same pattern after looking that them and comparing different pictures. Also these girls who fawn over them don't know these guys, so how can the obsession be due to personality?
Lastly the stereotype about ugly guys getting with attractive girls is because people are harsher towards males when judging their attractiveness. For example if a guy is a 6 and gets with a girl who is also a 6, most people will see the female as more attractive. This isn't because the guy isn't a 6, but because a female 6 is pretty and a male 6 is mid.
It is also because it is more socially acceptable for women to make generalizations and stereotypes about men and not the reverse. If a woman complains that men hate fat women or hate tall women this is socially acceptable even though there are men who love fat women and men who love tall women. On the other hand if a male complains that women hate short men he is shamed and labelled as a misogynistic incel even though there is literally no such thing as a heterosexual woman who prefers short men over tall men.
Con
#4
Alrighty, lets look at your objections.
About your doubt on what Adriana said, we don’t know that. We don’t know that it’s false. They’re married for five years, so there had to be something. Remember also that she is a Victoria secret model who doesn’t need to be with another rich guy to be rich.
In fact, Lima’s net worth is 95 million, while Marko’s is 20 million. I don’t think she needed to use him. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s using her, as he was rumored to have cheated on her.
So we’re just gonna have to assume it’s true unless if proven otherwise. Jaric is fit and tall, so are a lot of other celebrities. Why settle for somebody with a 5/10 face when there are others that are tall and fit like him, and with a 10/10 face? There are also other people with WAAAY higher status. I didn’t know about Jaric until I heard about Lima.
So why not date someone under six feet tall? Maybe she got rejected. Lima has been rejected before, by Cristiano Ronaldo for example.
Also, remember that there are a lot of guys that don’t like a girl taller than them, or tall girls in general. Lima is 5’10. That’s already quite tall. Generally guys like a girl who is shorter. The average male height in the US is 5’10. Basically she’s as tall as most guys. Some guys don’t like that. I see a lot of guys under that as well. Even if she likes short guys, they dont like her.
In cases where the short guy doesnt mind, you'll get Zendaya and Tom Holland. Zendaya doesnt mind Holland being shorter.
As I have went over with Jaric, it is quite unlikely money is a factor because Adriana Lima herself is quite rich. She is quite fortunate someone was willing to be with her, even though they’re only a few inches taller (Lemmers).
So why not date someone poor? Well, she is willing to date someone POORER.
Adriana Lima isn’t dumb (i think, i dunno, but at least she showed some discretion with her going for people famous like her). She’s a model. If she were to date an ordinary joe, she runs a huge risk of being used because she’s rich and a supermodel. In fact, as you have said earlier, you can’t take what everybody says right away.
Someone could easily attempt to manipulate her to get the bag. And how is this not an assumption? Because it has happened before and it’s common sense. If you want, I can try to find examples of gold diggers. Male ones.
I believe the Never Give Up guy’s wife still saw her husband past his face.
If she REALLY valued someone based on how cute someone is, she wouldn’t date someone that she thinks is only “kinda” cute.
She was talking to this guy for a while, and they had a baby. She had plenty of time to change her mind once she gave this “kinda cute” guy a chance. She could’ve gone for a “cuter” guy if that’s what really mattered.
But he did attract her, whether that’s because he’s relatable or something else, dunno. But whatever is inside him made him a 10/10 to her in the end, or else she wouldn’t marry him and remain with him despite the financial troubles (he has a go fund me page, she appears to be with him as of now). And btw, cute doesn’t just refer to someone’s face.
And honestly, I don’t have to prove that a woman will think a guy is PERFECT simply because of his personality, in order to disprove you. If you really like someone for their personality, you accept both their FLAWS and STRENGTHS. If you don’t see the flaws, you didn’t like them for their personality. I can’t prove a woman would think somebody is perfect solely because of their personality because that is contradictory.
You like them for who they are, then you would love them even though they are imperfect, cuz they are. Who isn’t? You can’t see somebody as perfect if you like them for who they are.
Most women have a preference for white men. I guess I ain’t “most women.” Exceptions exist.
Also I am southeast asian myself. In southeast asia, they want to be PALE, not white necessarily. I feel it is SE Asians that have been exposed to western culture that end up liking white men. Otherwise, they’ll like kpop idols instead. It’s somewhat frowned upon to not date another asian guy, especially with the older generations.
We don’t know if that’s why Madz dated Central Cee. You got a source for this?
She only broke up with him because he CHEATED, with Ice Spice. It’s not like he suddenly got poorer and then left him.
I have noticed that you didn’t consider every guy I have mentioned. I have mentioned more guys than just Ian and Jacob. What about Tom Holland, who is actually more popular than either guy? What about Cilian Murphy, Ross Lynch, Robert Pattinson, Brad Pitt, Gosling?
Why are they getting hype? There are lots of other rich, more attractive guys, who are also taller with better builds probably.
What about that guy I mentioned at school? Where’s his gf? He’s attractive, where are the girls? There are LOTS of pretty girls at school, after all, you have said it yourself: ratings for girls are more lenient.
Im surprised not everyone knows him.
Also, how does the last bit prove whether or not women judge by looks? We are debating on whether or not women (NO EXCEPTIONS) ONLY like guys for what’s on the outside, not whether or not its fair. We have to debate on the first claim before the second. After all, if women arent always shallow, then whats the point of the second claim? Cuz if the first claim of yours is false, that would mean not all women hate short men and get a pass for it.
There are 8 billion people in the world, half are women (maybe more if we count transwomen, but lets go with biological women). ALL women only like guys for what’s only on the outside? Nothing about the inside at all?
How are you gonna prove EVERY single woman thinks like this? Do you know every woman? You also havent provided sources.
I can only give you famous examples because there’s lots of information and likely would give out their thoughts to the public. But if I knew every woman, I’m sure I would find an example. It's just a matter of chance. The chance of finding even one woman to disprove your claim would be high.
Not everybody is shallow. Such general, stereotypical, shallow statements are strange from someone upset at women hating short men for being short.
You don’t seem keen on looking on the inside either. You made quite a lot of assumptions.
Assume every woman is shallow, and then gets upset when some are, as you arent yourself?
I hope I had made it clear Im not 100% sure on what these celebrities say about their love life, but the chance of it being about looks ONLY is quite low. Most people have fairly conventional tastes in beauty.
I cant say im right because I dont know, but i doubt its looks. And if it is, you need to prove it.
So it would seem unlikely looks or anything else is the ONLY factor. After all, theyre celebrities.
Theres more to people than you think.
P.S: I forgot Beyonce. Cant she find somebody richer than Jay Z who is more handsome too? Also, we cant prove she did it for money, especially because she is quite attractive according to modern standards, she can pull a better guy.
And I am aware shallow women exist. Its just that not all are, even if that only meant 20%.
Round 3
Pro
#5
The fact of the matter is that based on people she has dated, you need to at least be a millionaire and over 6 feet to date Adriana. This is a strange trend for someone who blabs about personality as if it is the most important thing. If she dated someone who was short and not a millionaire it would prove your point, but the reality of it simply doesn't. There are much more men who are both under 6 feet and not millionaires than there are guys who are over 6 feet and millionaires but she ALWAYS just so happens to end up with someone rich and tall. Show me just ONE example of an attractive and successful woman dating someone with low SMV purely because of personality, or you need to concede that SMV plays a bigger role than personality to have a shred of intellectual honesty.
You say "maybe she got rejected" as if we don't both know that it is women who reject men 99% of the time.
Every single study confirms that women almost universally prefer guys who are taller than the average male height. It is intellectually dishonest to blame it on men rejecting women for being taller than them because there are plenty of guys who actively seek out women who are taller than them and there is no such thing as a woman who doesn't prefer men taller than her unless she is borderline lesbian and only likes femboys. Every woman who says height doesn't matter to them tends to have a list of short boyfriends they broke up with and their current boyfriend is 6'6. You will NEVER find a woman who says she prefers short guys, if you do she will be a bisexual who prefers women and femboys, while on the other hand you can find tons of men who genuinely don't care about height or prefer taller women. Just because 70% of men prefer shorter women doesn't mean anything compared to 99.999% of women who prefer taller men.
You say if Adriana Lima dated a poor guy she might get used, but that would be much less likely if she is genuinely selecting for personality. Vetting ANYONE is necessary to enter a relationship with them, and just as much as a poor guy could be a male gold digger a rich guy could secretly be abusive and toxic or STILL be a gold digger since she is richer than her two mentioned exes.
"But whatever is inside him made him a 10/10 to her in the end" is not necessarily true just because she married him. Marrying someone doesn't mean you think they are perfect. For all you know she could be a Narcissist and with him because she can control him and be simped for in the relationship.
You DO need to prove that a guy can be a 10/10 because if personality matters AT ALL then a guy with 99% SMV should be able to become a 100% because of his personality even if it's only 1% difference. If personality factors in on any level whatsoever than it should be able to make the difference between being perfect and not being perfect. This of course is the bare minimum, because if you need 99% for personality to make the difference then personality is still basically worthless to women. It would be much more reasonable if personality could give you 50% and you only need 50% in looks/height etc. If that was the case the blue pill would be valid but all I am asking you is for a sliver of the blue pill being correct in a highly black pilled reality.
As for the guys you said I didn't address, I did. Every guy you mentioned who is liked by girls despite "not being attractive" has attractive features. The modeling industry has techniques to make attractive features stand out more and unattractive ones stand out less. If you look at multiple pictures of these guys, especially when you contrast photoshoots with more casual pictures, you will see that what they end up looking like is inconsistent.
You DO need to prove that a guy can be a 10/10 because if personality matters AT ALL then a guy with 99% SMV should be able to become a 100% because of his personality even if it's only 1% difference. If personality factors in on any level whatsoever than it should be able to make the difference between being perfect and not being perfect. This of course is the bare minimum, because if you need 99% for personality to make the difference then personality is still basically worthless to women. It would be much more reasonable if personality could give you 50% and you only need 50% in looks/height etc. If that was the case the blue pill would be valid but all I am asking you is for a sliver of the blue pill being correct in a highly black pilled reality.
As for the guys you said I didn't address, I did. Every guy you mentioned who is liked by girls despite "not being attractive" has attractive features. The modeling industry has techniques to make attractive features stand out more and unattractive ones stand out less. If you look at multiple pictures of these guys, especially when you contrast photoshoots with more casual pictures, you will see that what they end up looking like is inconsistent.
You seem to be misrepresenting my side of the debate as well. Certain factors can compensate for other factors even if it means you aren't a 10. If you are short being handsome can get you a gf, if you are not that good looking being tall can get you a gf. You won't be 10/10 but it will make much more difference in your dating options than personality will. Also things like having money and good social skills factor into SMV but alpha male personality traits don't count as "personality" because these are superficial traits that all women are attracted to like robots and aren't separate from my definition of SMV plus they are much less important than all other factors.
You are trying to reverse my accusations of being shallow, saying that I am the shallow one for assuming all women are shallow. Even if that was true, why would I care to "look on the inside" of a demographic that universally has no interest in getting to know me because I am short and ugly? Maybe women DO care about personality after you already have enough SMV for them to care about who you are in the first place. Who's point does this prove? It proves mine because the extent to which women care about you and are interested in you as a person is directly proportional to how attractive they think you are unless they are friendzoning you and if they are friendzoning you they will never care about you as much as someone they have romantic interest in.
You are trying to reverse my accusations of being shallow, saying that I am the shallow one for assuming all women are shallow. Even if that was true, why would I care to "look on the inside" of a demographic that universally has no interest in getting to know me because I am short and ugly? Maybe women DO care about personality after you already have enough SMV for them to care about who you are in the first place. Who's point does this prove? It proves mine because the extent to which women care about you and are interested in you as a person is directly proportional to how attractive they think you are unless they are friendzoning you and if they are friendzoning you they will never care about you as much as someone they have romantic interest in.
Con
#6
Alright, I gotta go to school tomorrow so I cant give ya a very lengthy argument.
But look, what Im saying about adriana is that maybe theres something more than behind her always going for rich guys.
You saying its women rejecting men 99% of the time shows that you arent really considering enough factors. Thats a huge number. Your topic debate made no exceptions, so it shouldve been 100%. Why only 99%?
Men only reject girls 1% of the time? What about you saying that girls are wiling to settle as long as he's attractive?
You said almost every study says women prefers guys taller than 5'10. can you provide those studies?
And also, not all women are dumb when it comes to marrying. It's true she might be using him, but he doesnt have much money, as you can tell by the go fund me page.
And you said women only go for guys much taller unless if theyre lesbian, bisexual, or like femboys.
So you're saying there ARE women who dont let smv factors get in the way.
And by the way, can you provide me an example of a shorter guy liking and going for women taller than him?
You said at the very end that you are short and ugly. I had suspected you werent so lucky with girls, which is why you seemed so bitter in your arguments.
Look. As an unattractive gal myself, you cant project your negativity onto people.
I aint gonna give you a pep talk, but if youre gonna debate people on it, it better be coming from a standpoint open to understanding and trying to actually prove it with examples and facts. Cuz right now whatever evidence I provide you can easily twist to your point of view.
Esp because we dont know these celebrities, and theres no way i can prove you wrong.
If youre gonna prove my examples wrong, you better have evidence of them being shallow and saying shallow things, cuz right now you are assuming. I tried to add in things theyve said, but you are twisting and casting doubt, but you dont seem to provide evidence for this doubt. Did they do anything mean in the past, did they say their partber was ugly, anything?
Sure, it can be possible adriana is shallow, but you need to provide me something she said or did, not your opinions.
Adriana is a celebrity, who is around celebrities all the time, who she could connect to. Models travel, a lot.
That needs to be considered as well. She isnt lounging around at a starbucks.
The point of me trying to provide these examples is to show that your statement, which is the debate topic, is narrow and easily debunkable. If I cant, someone else will.
If you are debating merely to have your point of view reinforced, this isnt a debate, this is a flattery sesh.
Anybody with a happy marriage, even if its a girl going for an unattractive guy, it cant be happy. Notice how when i mentioned the never gave up guy, you said the girl must be using him. Proof?
You immediately twisted it, and made it evil.
But what she say or do that suggested that?
If you arent here open to change your mind, I aint debating.
Ive been at a point where I used to think all guys are bad cuz they bullied me, so thats partly why I can still keep an open mind in this debate and get where you're coming from.
Dunno if you can do that.
I cant tell you what to do, but i'll tell you what i'll do.
If you're gonna be bitter every argument and not provide any real sources to back up all women being shallow (you already seem to take that back by saying if a woman doesnt prefer height, its cuz shes gay, but aint she a woman?) besides you assuming the worst of everything, this is my last argument.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Adriana Lima (pro):
Good example, a true 11 dating a mere 8... Pro was able to point to how awesome the guy is, and con's reply included Adriana stating "he's very athletic" which seems to be factors on pro's scale.
Never Give Up (con):
So an 8 marrying a 4 (maybe even as low as 3?), that goes much better for con. Pro's defense that the wife thought there was something cute about him, doesn't confirm it was a rare physical attraction or any other part of his scale, and con is able to explain it away as an attraction to his personality (which is the point of the debate right, not that women marry men they aren't attracted to, but if they are capable of romantic attraction).
List of Famous Hunks (pro):
I am not even reading this. There's no way it can help con's case. Maybe they have good personalities in addition to being incredibly hot?
Beyoncé (n/a):
"Any place or thing in the universe can be up to 104% perfect. That's how you got Beyoncé."
-Michael, The Good Place
You can't put her on the scale. Every guy is beneath her by all standards.
...
The big problem for pro was he made the big declaration of NEVER, but let con wholly lead the debate. If redoing this, each side should be limited to a couple examples at the start to contrast, rather than allowing room for Gish Gollops.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
ARGUMENTS
For one, I thought Pro did a good job of defining SMV early in the debate. He intelligently expanded the definition to encompass a man's alpha energy and "game," which might be confused for genuine personality. He intelligently points out that women will even fall in love with serial killers if they are attractive enough.
The real meat of the debate is set up by Pro when he challenges Con to propose one woman who demonstrates a genuine dedication to a man's personality, and not their SMV. Con makes a good effort of meeting Pro's challenge, but only two of her examples carry any weight for me. The other examples were just rich, famous men with sub-par looks, which does not adequately debunk Pro's conception of SMV, which is more dynamic than just physical attractiveness.
The two important examples were Adriana Lima and Never Give Up's (henceforth known as NGU) wife.
For Lima, she fell in love with a man who was high status, being tall, athletic, and famous. However, she stated that she loved him because of his sense of humour and intelligence. Admittedly, it does seem like Lima prefers famous men, but I am not convinced by Pro that it is the only thing she considers. Pro does challenge the sincerity of Lima's statements regarding Jaric, but I don't really see why I should believe she was insincere when Jaric is poorer and (probably) less attractive than Lima. If she only cared about SMV, why would she date a man who seems to be less attractive and wealthy than she is? This really does undermine Pro's claim that Lima was insincere in her interview, which was already a baseless claim to begin with.
NGU was Con's best example. NGU is a self proclaimed ugly guy, but he still found love. NGU's wife only seemed to find him "kinda" attractive, which indicates that some other characteristic (presumably his personality) made him appealing. Pro rightfully points out that the invocation of the word "kinda" indicates that NGU's wife does value attractiveness, but that does not fulfill his burden of proof. Ultimately, I am left with the impression that NGU's wife fell in love with NGU primarily due to his personality. Pro tries to claim that NGU's wife is a narcissist, but he never justifies this assertion. Further, if she fell in love with NGU because he was easy to manipulate, I fail to see how this fits into Pro's SMV paradigm.
Basically, most of Con's examples of women who fell in love with men due to reasons other than SMV fell short, but the two she elaborated upon were great! Con adequately proved that Lima cared a lot about characteristics other than SMV, even if her love of Jaric may have been informed by his height and fame. Further, I also believe that Con proved NGU's wife fell in love with NGU because of NGU's personality. Did NGU's wife consider NGU's SMV? Maybe, but the fact that she considered factors other than SMV fulfills Con's burden of proof.
Pro really bit off more than he could chew with this resolution. He had a really tough case and Con made him pay for it.
SOURCES
Sourcing was bad on both sides, though Con did better. The disparity is not great enough to justify assigning the point.
Well, that didnt go how I wanted to. I will admit I was quite childish towards the end.
It was 12 AM and I was rushing to finish my argument.
Hopefully I will improve my conduct next time.
Then I lose the debate because the proposition is a false dichotomy. No intellectually honest person thinks that though. It takes a great deal of cognitive dissonance and/or dishonesty to blame incel's personalities for why they can't get a gf when you know that there are tons of toxic men who have girlfriends.
But what if your SMV is who you are as a person?
SMV is important but to think it is the only consideration of every single woman alive, is silly