Is it probable that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead?
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...
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- 4
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This debate will focus on evaluating the evidence regarding the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.
However, the aim of this debate is not to declare a 'Winner' or 'Loser.' The true purpose is to educate and expand the understanding of all who read the debate.
Resolution: This debate will determine whether it is more probable, based on available evidence, that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead.
Definitions:
Probable: More likely to be true than not, based on the assessment of evidence.
Resurrection: The action of restoring someone to life from death.
The debate will focus on evaluating whether the available evidence supports the probability of Jesus’ resurrection.
Rules:
1. Both parties agree on the historical existence and death of Jesus.
2. For consistency, the NRSV Bible will be used as the reference when citing scripture.
3. In the final round, only counterarguments addressing previous points will be allowed; no new arguments may be introduced.
4. Failure to comply with rule #3 will result in an automatic forfeiture.
If there are any concerns with these rules or the description, feel free to address me in the comments or in PM.
For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. [14]
But a clear and unmistakable proof of the fact I hold to be the undertaking of His disciples, who devoted themselves to the teaching of a doctrine which was attended with danger to human life — a doctrine which they would not have taught with such courage had they invented the resurrection of Jesus from the dead; and who also, at the same time, not only prepared others to despise death, but were themselves the first to manifest their disregard for its terrors. [16]
Hello voters, this is my introduction to my argument for why I do not believe Jesus rose from the dead. I will present three arguments and three rebuttals. Without further delay, let us dive right in.
The first argument I would like to present is the medical impossibility of Jesus coming back from the dead. ... This puts Pro in a tough position as they must either prove all known medical science wrong and prove that brain death is not irreversible or that Jesus, who was a human somehow does not adhere to the laws of physics.
Although Pro has asked that his Christian sources be treated as historical documents, I cannot comply with that request. Firstly. it is indeed biased to demand theological documents as historical facts when they are historically not recognized as such, and there are many reasons for that.
... Jesus did not write the bible. The Bible that is based on Jesus is one that was written by his followers and that was a full decade after he died. This renders the bible and everything that it supposedly says about Jesus, including his supposed teachings, unreliable as sources of information by academic standards.
pro can make very logical excuses for why there is a lack of evidence for Jesus, and it may sound very convincing, but it is not true.
One major source of reason Christians think that Jesus did die and come to life is because they believe they have found the tomb that Jesus was placed in for three days. However, this is a fallacy because the existence of the tomb itself proves nothing.
Pro is relying on the illogical premise that if the apostles were wrong or lying, then they would not have maintained their claims even at the cost of dying for them.However, one can still fully believe in something, be wrong, and also not be lying because they wholeheartedly believe what they believe in even if said beliefs cannot be proven or indeed are false.
Early in my opponent's argument, he tries to use a well-known atheist and bible scholar known as Gerd Ludemann. pro tries to misrepresent Gerd as saying that the apostles really saw the resurrection of Jesus and that such an event is indeed a historically recognized event.
But let not the testimony of women be admitted, on account of the levity and boldness of their sex, nor let servants be admitted to give testimony on account of the ignobility of their soul; since it is probably that they may not speak truth, either out of hope of gain, or fear of punishment. (Josephus, Antiquities 4.8.15) [15]
Any evidence which a woman [gives] is not valid (to offer), also they are not valid to offer. This is equivalent to saying that one who is Rabbinically accounted a robber is qualified to give the same evidence as a woman. (Talmud, Rosh Hashannah 1.8) [16]
This objection reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of my position. The claim that "science proves resurrections are impossible" is based on a naturalistic assumption that all events must conform to known natural laws. What science has shown is that a person is not going to rise from the dead by natural causes [4]. This reasoning does not apply to Jesus' resurrection, since we are not claiming that Jesus came back to life naturally. The writers of the New Testament asserted that it was God who raised Jesus from the dead [5].
While my opponent objects to treating Christian sources as historical documents, scholars, both religious and secular, have long valued the New Testament for its historical content [7]. The historical-critical method, widely accepted in academia, allows us to analyze these texts just as we would any other ancient writings [8]. By treating the New Testament as a collection of first-century documents rather than solely theological texts, we gain insight into the socio-cultural context of the time, providing valuable historical data. Ignoring these sources would disregard valuable evidence that has been rigorously examined by historians across the spectrum.
Contrary to my opponent's assertion that these texts are "historically not recognized as such," the New Testament has been treated as valuable historical documents in scholarly circles [9] [10]. To disregard these texts entirely would be to ignore a significant body of evidence that has been carefully analyzed and debated by scholars. Historians do not reject evidence merely because of its biases; instead, they critically analyze all available data [11]. Therefore, using the Bible as a source, especially on the subject of the resurrection, is not only acceptable but essential for a comprehensive analysis.
My opponent claims the Gospels are unreliable because Jesus didn't write them and they were written decades later by His followers. However, the Gospels' value comes precisely from being eyewitness accounts. Most historical figures, like Genghis Khan or George Washington, are known through similar writings. Dismissing the Gospels ignores the importance of primary sources in historical research.
My opponent has misunderstood the argument for the empty tomb. They claim that the empty tomb is fallacious because the "discovery of the tomb" does not prove that Jesus came back to life. However, this was not the argument. If the tomb weren’t empty, Jesus’ opponents could have easily disproven His resurrection by producing the body. The absence of His body, despite being guarded, supports the claim that the resurrection occurred. Alternative explanations like theft or misplacement fail to account for the historical and social context surrounding the event.
My opponent asserts "Many people have died for their beliefs, but that does not mean that their beliefs were true." I agree, but this misses the point: The disciples' willingness to suffer and die for their beliefs indicates that they certainly regarded those beliefs as true. The case is strong that they did not willfully lie about the appearances of the risen Jesus. The crucial difference between the apostles and modern martyrs is that the apostles were in a position to know whether their beliefs were true or false.Extreme acts do not validate the truth of their beliefs, but willingness to die indicates that they regarded their beliefs as true. Moreover, there is an important difference between the apostle martyrs and those who die for their beliefs today. Modern martyrs act solely out of their trust in beliefs that other have taught them. The apostles died for holding to their own testimony that they had personally seen the risen Jesus. Contemporary martyrs die for what they believe to be true. The disciples of Jesus died for what they knew to be either true or false. The martyrs you are referencing when you say "one can still fully believe something, be wrong, and die for these wrong beliefs" are not categorically the same as the apostle martyrs. This is an important distinction to draw. Unlike these martyrs, the apostles knew whether Jesus appeared to them or not. They knew whether their beliefs were true or false. Had they been false, the apostles would have renounced their claims.If the apostles had been lying about their experiences, it is unlikely they would have willingly faced torture and death with nothing to gain. Even the highly critical New Testament scholar Rudolf Bultmann agreed that historical criticism can establish the fact that "the first disciples came to believe in the resurrection" and that they thought they had seen the risen Jesus [12].
My opponent has accused me of misrepresenting the atheist and Bible scholar Gerd Lüdemann. They claim that I suggested Lüdemann believes the resurrection is historically certain. In reality, I accurately quoted Lüdemann, who stated, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." [13]. This quote does not imply that Lüdemann believes in the resurrection as a historical event, but he deems the subjective experiences of the apostles as historically certain.My argument was not that Lüdemann supports the resurrection as a historical fact, but that even a skeptical scholar like him acknowledges the certainty of the disciples' experiences. Any misinterpretation of this point arises from a misreading on the part of my opponent.
So, what? It doesn't matter what the writers of the New Testament Claim. What matters is what can be proven. I proved that the resurrection of Jesu is a scientific impossibility. If your counter to this point is to say that the resurrection of Jesus did not happen naturally and was divine in nature, then you must prove that both the resurrection did indeed happen and that it was a divine one at that.
The difference pro is that we can validate everything we know about George Washington and Genghis Kon and everything that they did because they are historically Coherent.
The claim that Jesus rose from the dead comes from Christians. Thus, it is the Christians job to Prove Jesus rose from the dead.
Your argument is again that the tomb was empty thus it proves he resurrected, which is exactly what I said in the first round.
One major source of reason Christians think that Jesus did die and come to life is because they believe they have found the tomb that Jesus was placed in for three days. However, this is a fallacy because the existence of the tomb itself proves nothing. ... The fact is there is no objective evidence to say the tomb everyone thinks that Jesus's body was once put in was the correct one, nor does the location itself prove anything. ... It's no different than if I told you that I died and came back three days ... and I told you the location [of the tomb I was buried in] and you visited it and saw that robbing my body would be difficult, and then concluding that indeed must have come back to life since you have the location.
Pro, you not only just said that you agree that many people are willing to die for beliefs that are false whole believing it to be true. Now you're saying that the mere fact the disciples were willing to suffer and die because they believed their beliefs were true. There is literally zero difference.
What about the Millions of Germans that died during World War 2 for Adolf Hitler? Do you really believe that they all willingly died for a genocidal racist? No, many were loyal to him and believed he was leading them to greatness. Were they right? No, but were they all liars? Also no.
This does not dismiss the possibility that the story is indeed fabricated. There is essentially no evidence to support it but hearsay as eyewitness, no matter how many cannot constitute alone as evidence. The gender of the witness or what the author thought about them at the time is also irrelevant.
The Gospels are considered to be based on eyewitness testimonies of Jesus’ life [1]. If any source provides deeper insight into Jesus’ life, it is these texts, whose authors were directly associated with Him during His ministry. Their claims are crucial, especially as they are founded on firsthand observations. In his work Against Heresies (Book III), St. Irenaeus defends the authenticity and apostolic authority of the Gospels. He argues that the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written by the apostles or their close associates and that these texts are trustworthy testimonies of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus [2].
My opponent also claims "what matters is what can be proven." Refer to my Round 2 "Prerequisite." The opposing party continues to use erroneous language with regards to this debate. Notice, for instance, how the description of the debate states "This debate will determine whether it is more probable, based on available evidence, that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead."
Insofar as my opponent's naturalistic perspective goes, it fails to account for the resurrection's divine factor. In the pursuit to clarify this positional cornerstone, I attempted to convey that the resurrection transcends naturalistic supposition and oversteps into divine territory.
My opponent has dismissed this by labeling it “magic.” It’s essential to differentiate: magic involves manipulating natural laws, while divine power transcends them. When it comes to the resurrection of Jesus, we are not claiming that Jesus came back to life naturally. The writers of the New Testament and I both assert that it was God who raised Jesus from the dead [3].
It seems the only counterargument my opponent seems to be able to conjure is to disregard the divine claim, holding steadfast to the idea that the divine cannot surpass known natural laws. The claim that Jesus rose from the dead is not a point of view. The resurrection claim is not merely a theological assertion but a historical one. Paul, in Acts 26:26, emphasizes that these events were not done "in a corner," implying they were public and verifiable events [4]. It may be investigated like any alleged historical event. Is there any historical merit to the claim? Jesus’ death on a cross, burial in a tomb that was empty three days later, and the disciples’ testimony of His resurrection are all well-established facts. So much so that skeptics have focused on undermining Christianity by attempting to explain them away.
My opponent notes that scholars study the New Testament for different reasons but doesn’t deny its value for historical content. This inadvertently supports my stance. The only sources they have provided throughout their round support this narrative as well [5] [6]. For example, my opponent's first source acknowledges that the Gospels are the biographies of Jesus.
My opponent attempts to draw a parallel between the apostle martyrs and German soldiers who died for Adolf Hitler during World War II. However, this analogy is not apt. The German soldiers were fighting for a cause they believed in, but they did not have firsthand knowledge of Hitler’s true intentions or the full scope of his actions. Many were loyal to him and believed he was leading them to greatness, but their beliefs were based on misinformation and propaganda [12], not on direct personal experience.
In contrast, the apostles were not merely fighting for a cause based on secondhand information. They claimed to be direct witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. If their testimony were false, they would have knowingly faced persecution and death for something they knew to be untrue — a much more unlikely scenario than dying for a cause in which one is sincerely, albeit mistakenly, invested. The comparison, therefore, fails to recognize the crucial difference between dying for a belief one holds without direct evidence and dying for a claim of a firsthand encounter.
It is anything but irrelevancy. Had the story indeed been fabricated, with the express purpose to deceive as many people, the authors would not have included information that would hurt its credibility and its potential to deceive. Had the writers wanted as many converts, they would not have listed women as the primary witnesses of the empty tomb — especially not in a society where the testimony of women were not believed. Including a testimony that would not be believed in a writing intended to be believed is contrary and self-refuting.
Actually, as I explained earlier, there is a fundamental difference between viewing the gospels based on theology and academia.
In other words, you have to prove it. So, no, it is not erroneous to say that It falls on you to prove the probability of the resurrection.
academics, on the other hand, study the bible because they focus on the historical impact the stories had on the ancient world rather than what the stories themselves mean.
Pro, you have just as much luck at convincing a German soldier that Adolf Hitler was a genocidal madman during World War 2 as you do the disciples that Jesus never rose from the dead. There is no difference. The concept is that you believe in something so strongly that regardless of if that belief is true or not, you will die for it
And you cannot prove such an assertion. Prove God first before claiming said God did anything.
If you insist that your argument, be based on historical probability. Then right off the bat, you prove that A. Divinity is real, and B. It can override physical science. So far, you have not done so.
So, no. The gospels are not considered to be based on eyewitness testimonies of Jesus' life, because the Character is different from the man's. The only people who view the bible as evidence are Christians. Not academia.
True, women were not well regarded at the time, but that is where the true deception lies. What better way to sell the idea that Jesus came back from the dead, which would be seen as impossible if not also uncommon witnesses such as women in a time where women were seen as less than a man?
You try to say that the resurrection was a historical event, yet your main source to argue that does not come from Academia
I can claim right now that I saw Aliens, I could even be fully convinced that I saw what I saw. However, just because I might believe my own story and even die for it does not mean what I said was true.
For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors
"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." - C. S. Lewis
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>Reported Vote: Savant // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: three to pro
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:
The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
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>That's not really what I said. I said that "Con doesn't seem to dispute that a supernatural event could at least theoretically happen, so Pro really just has to show evidence that a fully natural explanation for the events around Jesus's death is less likely than the given supernatural one."
Thats the thing though, Pro never proved it was probable from a natural point of view. in fact, they conceded that it could not happen naturally. Hence why they invoked the name of God and claimed God was the reason it happened due to the events being Supernatural in nature. Plus, supernation events cannot be proven, so that would work against Pro, not for them.
> "I will say that I find it a little confusing that you both say that I did not give you a reason to doubt the possibility of Jesus resurrection when you also point out that I proved such an event is medically impossible and that Pro conceded that point."
That's not really what I said. I said that "Con doesn't seem to dispute that a supernatural event could at least theoretically happen, so Pro really just has to show evidence that a fully natural explanation for the events around Jesus's death is less likely than the given supernatural one."
And yes, you did draw a distinction between viewing the Bible as a religious text and viewing it as a factual, historical account, but there's a difference between doing that and actually arguing that a supernatural event simply can't happen at all. I agree that the medical impossibility of resurrection after brain death means that Pro has a difficult case to prove, but as I said, they just had to show that the given supernatural event was more likely than a completely natural explanation.
> "Lastly, I disagree with you saying that I put undue burden of proof is on Pro because ultimately the burden of proof is on pro. He is the one who must prove that it is possibility of Jesus coming back to life. My job as Con was to show reasons for why we should doubt it."
Well, yes, but there's different standards for the burden of proof. Compare civil trials and criminal trials in the US, for instance. In both types of trials, the one bringing the case generally has the burden of proof, but in a criminal trial the burden of proof is much stricter than in a civil trial (preponderance of evidence vs beyond a reasonable doubt). Pro only needed to prove that the resurrection was *probable*, not that there is no reasonable doubt that it happened. It seemed like you wanted Pro to be able to prove it as an absolute fact, when that was never necessary for them.
I will say that I find it a little confusing that you both say that I did not give you a reason to doubt the possibility of Jesus resurrection when you also point out that I proved such an event is medically impossible and that Pro conceded that point.
Obviously since this world is determined by physics then something being physically impossible is the prefect argument for why something wasn't possible. I also disagree with you claim that I did not dispute supernatural events because I actually did.
If you note in the debate, I kept drawing a contrast between theology and academia. I even specifically mention that supernatural events cannot be considered historical because like science, history only deals in the natural phenomenon. Not supernatural, and since Jesus' resurrection is a supernatural event, it cannot be claimed to be historically proven.
That is literally me disputing the existence of supernatural events. Lastly, I disagree with you saying that I put undue burden of proof is on Pro because ultimately the burden of proof is on pro. He is the one who must prove that it is possibility of Jesus coming back to life. My job as Con was to show reasons for why we should doubt it.
And if my argument could have been viewed in the manner I indeed, which was that the bible isn't considered a historical book outside of religion, The Apostles claimed experience is hearsay, Jesus was a human and the physical and thus impossible to revive after three days (a point that couldn't be refuted), and that theology based evidence of supernatural events cannot be conflicted with actual academia or history.
Instead, people choose to ignore these points for some reason and claim I made no effective argument, and for some reason tried to argue that "proof" and "probability" were somehow different, which made no sense to me. But I do get it, everyone's view is different. And I respect every voters' decision at the end of the day. Thank you for voting.
I see where the confusion happened. The nazi comparison had nothing to do with the existence of Adolf Hiler. The comparison was between a nazi soldier fully believing that Adolf Hitler was a person trying to make Germany a great nation and the apostle's belief that Jesus was in fact resurrected. Not about Hitler or Hitler's existence. The comparison was purely about believing in what they thought even if what they thought was not correct. That tied into my argument that my Apostles may not have been lying but may not have been correct in their belief either. So, you misunderstood that part.
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The basis of my argument was the claim by Pro that the Apostles' conviction and readiness to die for their beliefs served as proof of the resurrection's occurrence. My rebuttal centered on the notion that one's firm belief in something and willingness to die for it does not necessarily mean it is true, thereby making conviction alone an insufficient validation of truth.
I feel I should add on a little bit to my vote -- a lot of the discussion in this debate was around the idea that the fact that the disciples believed they had seen Jesus after his death does not mean that they actually had. Pro did not disagree with this idea, but argues that it's still strong evidence in favor of the resurrection actually happening. Con tries to provide a counterexample with Nazi soldiers dying for the cause of Adolf Hitler. (Why do so many debaters feel the need to invoke Nazi Germany when it's not directly relevant?) However, as Pro points out, most of these soldiers did not directly interact with Hitler himself, but fell for propaganda. I agree with this point, but more broadly, I can't say that I really understand Con's comparison in the first place, as it's not as though Nazi soldiers believed that Hitler had supernatural abilities or anything. No one disputes that Adolf Hitler existed. On the other hand, people do dispute whether the supernatural events talked about in the Bible actually happened and whether Jesus even existed at all. I don't really see the comparison that Con makes, so I don't think the argument really counts for anything.
Owen_T your vote has been taken down for insufficient explanation of sources… There needs to not just be quantity, but something notable about how they were leveraged to bolster at least one contention.
Arguments could also do with more detail. Like what’s a contention pro excelled at? And (I haven’t read the debate, so I could be missing a big area of discussion) it seems odd on a debate about comparable probabilities, to agree that something is impossible, but then wholly dismiss that as missing the point of the debate.
Conduct would not have been warranted for annoyance with a flawed argument tactic. However it is something quite valid against arguments (not referring to this specific debate).
And in general every point other than arguments shouldn’t be for mild tipping of the scales, but for comparable excellence. I’ll even advise to consider winning arguments to make it a slightly higher burden to get any additional points on top of that.
Owen_T
09.07.2024 08:44PM
Reason:
I'm an agnostic, and I agree with Con, but CatholicApologetics knows his stuff.
Starting with arguments:
Pro presented a strong case, and backing it up with quite a few sources. And then there is Con, who's arguments did not make sense to me.
For example, the resurrection is medically impossible. Well yeah of course it is. That's literally the whole point.
He then goes on to argue the apostles being martyred means nothing, even though they knew the objective truth, as Pro pointed out.
These are just two examples, but there are more things like this.
As mentioned before, Pro used many sources to back up all of his arguments. Con didn't do a bad job with sources, Pro was just better.
I was tempted to give Pro the conduct point to, as Con kept bringing up arguments that had already been well debunked, and that makes me livid when it happens to me.
Thank you for your well wishes! I am already on the mend, thankfully. Getting my vote in on time shouldn't be an issue.
I hope you feel better soon. Please don't feel obligated to vote if you're not well, your health is more important. If you do recover in time, I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on the debate and would appreciate your vote.
Its not an issue, I just felt that your reasoning was based on misunderstandings on the arguments I put forth IE focusing on hallucinations and claims that I did not argue against the Disciples testimony. And when you agreed that you didn't necessarily give more consideration, my suggestion was just to reevaluate your vote and then give it better and more accurate reasoning.
I do not see why You would think that it would cause people to accuse of rigging or undue influence. But if that is a major concern, then the vote can stay where it is and I will follow your suggestion. It was not to try and sway your vote, but to get a more accurate reasoning.
I'll address this in broad strokes since going into the minutiae of my vote after one side has asked me to revote risks allegations of vote rigging or undue influence.
I confess to not covering every detail of the debate, and there were points on both sides I could have described in more detail but didn't. There were parts I paraphrased. The reason being that in general, many of the minor points didn't change the way I weighed points at the end or weren't significant enough to outweigh other factors. There were some details brought up by either side that the other debater just didn't address, and I had to weigh which case was more directly arguing the resolution. I really do commend both sides for making a strong case for their side, but at some point arguments had to be weighed against each other.
That's not necessarily super helpful feedback, but even if I deleted my vote and added 3x as much detail, I don't think it would satisfy everyone or change the way I weighed arguments. At best, revoting or discussing the specifics of the vote would just lead to controversy over what caused me to revote or alter my interpretation of the debate, which is the type of thing that mods have gotten dragged into before.
If you think my vote or any other is insufficient or does not address both sides, I can only recommend you report it, as that allows the mods to evaluate whether it meets site standards. Really, I won't take it personally, although I do think it's unlikely to be removed.
Right, and that's why I said you misunderstood me. The hallucinations were just part of me disputing Pro's attempts at saying even atheist scholars like Gerd agreed that the disciples saw Jesus come back from the dead when he stated the opposite. The main focus of the debate was about the probability of Jesus coming back from the dead. And my position held three main points. The medical impossibility of Jesus coming back from the dead (which you got right) The inability to verify the claims of the disciples. (Hence the historical reference comparison and psychological sources.) And that the resurrection of Jesus is a supernatural event rather than a historical event. (which is why I brought sources that show the definitional difference between history and theology as well as the difference between a historical event and a supernatural event). Now, that we have that covered. Could you please consider recasting your vote to properly reflect my position and confirm the final determination of your stance?
I do realize I probably could have gone into more detail on that point. When I say you didn't dispute the historicity of the "experiences," I meant in terms of the disciples believing they had seen Jesus. It was clear to me you didn't believe that they were right about having seen Jesus, so in my view the debate came down to how the disciples could believe they had seen a dead person if they hadn't. I thought the main factor there was hallucinations, although that was mainly me focusing on the point of contention I thought was most decisive.
The only issue I take with your vote is that you say that I never dispute the disciple's experience with Jesus. However, I did argue against it by pointing out that eyewitness testimony is hearsay. I also go into great detail about the ability of a group of people to die for their beliefs even if that belief is false or not proven. I even provided a link to that effect. I am also confused about your point about hallucinations. You say I never address the hallucination counter. However, the only reason hallucinations were mentioned at all was because I pointed out that Pro's claim that a renowned atheist scholar named Gerd Ludemann said that the apostles saw the resurrection is not true since Gerd had taken the position that they experienced a hallucination.
So, I didn't respond to Pro's hallucination counter for two reasons. One because the hallucinations point was one, I brought up and it was used to counter their claims about Gerd and not if they actually experienced one or not. And two Pro never addressed my point about Gerd nor provided any counter-source to that point.
Just letting you know because I think you misunderstood some of my arguments.
I'm a bit sick right now, but I still plan on voting on this one.
Thank you for your votes.
Thank you for participating in this debate. It is a long, albeit important one. Your contribution is widely recognized and I am forever grateful for your participation.
I mean, this is difficult for Con because proving a negative is usually impossible. Pro just needs probability > 50%.
This debate is interesting so far. Tag me when all the rounds have been completed. I will vote on this one.
Thats a quite strong first round from both Pro and Con.
Alright, but don't post the video as a part of your debate. Keep the actual debate words-only.
Just to let you know, I will make a video response to your arguments as I found that doing this helps make my arguments more concise and easier to write.
I posted the debate, please disregard the sections which states "NOTES: CHANGE FROM DEVESTATION AND UNBELIEF TO FAITH." It was a note that I forgot to remove.
I'm quite busy today and tomorrow. Except a post in a few days.
Yes, this is a better debate to have. I look forward to hearing your first argument.
But Pontius Pilote did not exist, so how can there be a devil and his talking cat walking around Moscow?!
I’m referring to The Master and Margarita
agreed.
Maybe a better topic would be if Jesus appeared to people after his death, if resurrection is true.
To be fair, Jesus is acknowledged both historically and biblically as a real figure who died on the cross. Therefore, most people do not believe he was non-existent. However, there is a distinction between the Biblical Jesus and the Historical Jesus, as they are not considered the same entity. Bible Jesus is the one described as the son of God, died for our sins, etc. History Jesus is just a man who lived in Palestine, opposed Roman Rule, gained a following, gave moral teachings, and was eventually executed under suspicion of planning to overthrow Roman rule.
One could argue that the Jesus depicted in the Bible was not crucified as he represents a fictionalized version of the actual Jesus, whose divine paternity cannot be substantiated. But your topic is just about Jesus being crucified in general, which is undisputed.
Is there nobody that believes Jesus was not crucified?