1442
rating
45
debates
56.67%
won
Topic
#5423
Was the Confederacy fighting for slavery?
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with 8 points ahead, the winner is...
Americandebater24
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
1702
rating
574
debates
67.86%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Thank you Con for accepting the debate. As pro, I will prove the Confederacy fought for slavery in the American Civil War.
First argument: The American Civil War was fought between Northern and Southern states. While many people believe The CSA were opposing a tyrannical government or were trying to gain independence. what many people do not realize is that the main reason was indeed slavery. The Confederate leadership themselves acknowledged this fact as well. Aleander H Stephens, the vice President of the Confederacy even went so far as to declare,
"Our new government['s]...foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." Cornerstone Speech - Wikipedia
If the vice president of the Confederacy himself does not know what he is talking about, then who could with factual authority tell the truth? It would make no sense and even be illogical even to even suggest that the VP of the CSA is lying.
Second argument: The second argument lies in the fact that every state that left the United Staes during the early stages before or after the Civil War began explicated did so to preserve slavery. For example, South Carolina, the first state to leave the Union stated in their separation speech,
[A]n increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. . . .South Carolina Declaration of Secession (1860) | Constitution Center
All Seceding states have similar documents that either state or heavily imply that their primary reason for leaving the Union was an act to protect the institution of slavery. These declarations prove once again, by the Souths own words, that they were turning against the United States because they believed slavery no longer safe and to leave or even fight the Union was the only way to secure its continued survival.
Argument 3: When the War began to come to a close, President Lincoln and other representatives came to a conference with Confederate Vice president Alender H. Stephens in an attempt to make peace known as the Hampton roads compromise in Feb of 1865. During this conference, many things were discussed including if slavery would exist after the war. The Confederates could not come to agreement with the Union on this issue and allowed the war to continue 2 months longer because they did not agree with the end of slavery. Hampton Roads Conference - Wikipedia If slavery was not in contest or a goal of the Confederacy, they would not have disagreed with the Union on slavery.
Conclusion: The Confederacy fought for slavery. The Confederate leadership stated publicly that its foundation was bult on slavery, The Southern states that left the Union made it very clear that their decision to leave was based on perceived threats to the Institution of slavery. And When the Confederacy had a chance to end the Civil War by surrendering to the Union, the Confederates refused because this would have meant the end of Southern slave labor and culture.
There are 2 different debates here, one unfairly favours Pro for an automatic win almost but the other is the one I'll argue and which will favour Con in the long run of this 4-Round debate.
It's obvious that slavery was happening and allowed in the US at the start of the war. It's also obvious that the Northern States were more open to ending it than the Southern ones. However, there is a severe misconception people have about both how racist the North were (they were extremely racist) and what the true agenda of Lincoln was as well as the 'Union' as they called themselves.
I would like to begin with some authentic quotes from Lincoln, key to him getting his reputation for being the rare honest President.
I have 'bolded' the key ones, if you wish to skimread over this instead of read it slower.
My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do, it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union...I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.
I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermingling with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
Both from here: presidentlincoln.illinois.gov
While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making VOTERS or jurors of negroes, NOR OF QUALIFYING THEM HOLD OFFICE, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any of her man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
Judge DOUGLAS has said to you that he has not been able to get from me an answer to the question whether I am in favor of negro citizenship. So far as I know the Judge never asked me the question before. He shall have no occasion to ever ask it again, for I tell him very frankly that I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF NEGRO CITIZENSHIP. This furnishes me an occasion for saying a few words upon the subject. I mentioned in a certain speech of mine which has been printed, that the Supreme Court had decided that a negro could not possibly be made a citizen, and without saying what was my ground of complaint in regard to that, or whether I had any ground of complaint, Judge DOUGLAS has from that thing manufactured nearly every thing that he ever says about my disposition to produce an equality between the negroes and the white people. If any one will read my speech, he will find I mentioned that as one of the points decided in the course of the Supreme Court opinions, but I did not state what objection I had to it. But Judge DOUGLAS tells the people what my objection was when I did not tell them myself. Now my opinion is that the different States have the power to make a negro a citizen under the Constitution of the United States if they choose. The Dred Scott decision decides that they have not that power. If the State of Illinois had that power, I SHOULD BE OPPOSED TO THE EXERCISE OF IT. That is all I have to say about it.
Now, gentlemen, I don't want to read at any greater length, but this is the true complexion of all I have ever said in regard to the institution of Slavery and the black race. This is the whole of it; and anything that argues me into his idea of perfect social and political equality with the negro, is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse-chestnut to be a chestnut horse. I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of Slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the fooling of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge DOUGLAS, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary.
There, my friends, you have briefly what I have, upon former occasions, said upon the subject to which this newspaper, to the extent of its ability, has drawn the public attention. In it you not only perceive, as a probability, that in that contest I did not at any time say I was in favor of negro suffrage; but the ABSOLUTE PROOF that twice -- once substantially and once expressly -- I DECLARED AGAINST IT. Having shown you this, there remains but a word of comment upon that newspaper article. It is this: that I presume the editor of that paper is an honest and truth-loving man, and that he will be greatly obliged to me for furnishing him thus early an opportunity to correct the misrepresentation he has made, before it has run so long that malicious people can call him a liar.
Previous 4 from here: nytimes.com
There is likely to be significant retaliation from Pro on 2 grounds:
- Quotes from Lincoln later on changing his views and tricking/gaslighting the American public to think he'd all along been against slavery and for the emancipation of the black/negro (his words) people. Even then, he was never ever for the equality of them.
- Claiming that just because Lincoln and the enemies of the confederates weren't necessarily fighting against slavery or for black equality and rights, it doesn't mean that the Confederates weren't fighting for slavery.
Number 1 is easy to dismiss preemptively, since it's Lincoln lying to cover his ass to the American public later on and win them over. I literally have quoted his words where he gets furious in the later quotes calling a judge named Douglas of the Supreme court a liar for ever even suggesting that Lincoln was vague and uncertain about how passionately he'd defend the superiority of the white race over the 'negro' one (his words).
It's important to understand that the 'other side' was fundamentally rooted in bullying states that did not consent to be part of the United States of America to be tyrannically bullied into it. This is super ironic in a way since their mission was, according to Pro, to free slaves. So in other words they wanted to enslave states like Texas and Georgia against those States' will, blackmailing them to stay part of the US at literal gunpoint with threat of severe bloodshed that was proven throughout the war to not be an empty threat, while those States wished to break free from the US.
The way to see this is reverse-colonisation. Usually annexing and colonisation are done by going to a place that hasn't previously been colonised by your empire/superpower and to take control of them. In this case, there was already a colonisation in place, since technically all states in the United States of America (USA) are actually colonies of the USA but due to semantic issues and political issues with the charged notion of that, the word 'colony' is never used to refer to them.
The reality is that the following states quite simply did not consent any longer to be part of the US:
Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia.
There is even a concept here to make that would be marital rape. The reason I'd say marital rape is akin to what was going on is because the concept that a partner can rape their partner (typically husband raping a wife) seemed alien to people some decades ago. She 'consented' to the partnership, right? She's not always fighting him full force as he's overpowering and having his way with her, perhaps she's even been conditioned into tolerating it. This type of rape doesn't always have the bruising and full force signs of struggle that strange-type rape does:
researchgate.net read here if you believe I'm making it up.
Over the earlier decades of the US existing the British themselves had tried to do to the US what the Union successfully did to the Confederate States. The US was still a very young country.
The US was officially founded on July 4 1776 (when it won the war vs the British to establish itself completely).
The Confederacy's true formation date is probably unknown and a secret as it began as whispers and underground/backroom meetings and coalitions loosely forming over time. February 8, 1861 had the original member states officially state what they were and bear the flag.
So there werer 2-3 generations (lifespans weren't long back then, so 85 years is actually towards a third generation, people were deteriorating significantly in their 30s and dying then too, people dying at 36 was normal). It's not unthinkable for some States involved to rethink their consent to engaging in this dynamic of the US owning them that their grandparents agreed to, not them.
The fundamental war can be said to have states that were pro-slavery involved. That's true. However, that commonality amongst them was not entirely absent in other states. Even states with abolished slavery were severely abusing black people and seeing them as inferior, as evidenced by what the frontrunner Lincoln said in my quoted speeches to appease them that the war wasn't about making black people equal to white people in the slightest.
The war was about the Confederacy not believing Lincoln and his party were who they wanted in charge, they literally had a president named Jefferson Davis that they considered their leader instead.
I shall end with some quotes by him.
most are from here: goodreads.com
All we ask is to be let alone.
The war...must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks...unless you acknowledge our right to self-government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence, and that, or extermination, we will have.
Have we not a right to appeal to you, as brethren bound by the compact of our fathers, that you should, with due regard to your own rights and interests and constitutional obligations, do all that is necessary to preserve our peace and promote our prosperity? If, sir, the seeds of disunion have been sown broadcast over this land, I ask by whose hand they have been scattered? If, sir, we are now reduced to a condition when the powers of this Government are held subservient to faction; if we can not and dare not legislate for the organization of territorial governments—I ask, sir, who is responsible for it? And I can with proud reliance say, it is not the South—it is not the South! Sir, every charge of disunion which is made on that part of the South which I in part represent, and whose sentiments I well understand, I here pronounce to be grossly calumnious. The conduct of the State of Mississippi in calling a convention has already been introduced before the Senate; and on that occasion I stated, and now repeat, that it was the result of patriotism, and a high resolve to preserve, if possible, our constitutional Union; that all its proceedings were conducted with deliberation, and it was composed of the first men of the State.
We will not permit aggressions. We will defend our rights; and, if it be necessary, we will claim from this Government, as the barons of England claimed from John, the grant of another Magna Charta for our protection.
Round 2
My esteemed opponent argues there are two debates. However, the topic clearly only asked if the Confederacy was fighting for slavery. Not whether the Union or the South were racist. As that is a separate topic.
Argument 1: The first half of Cons argument seems to be trying to establish that Lincoln was not for equality due to the fact he is quoted as saying he was primarily concerned with saving the Union and not ending slavery. I can concede that Lincoln was initially focused with avoiding Civil War over ending slavery. However, there is no denying that Lincoln was both an Abolitionist and was a key figure in passing the 13th Amendment, which was about ending slavery. This evidenced by the fact he both freed slaves in Confederate states in 1863. 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Abolition of Slavery (1865) | National Archives and He played a very active role in supporting the 13th Amendment.
I will also concede that Lincoln was not an advocate for racial equality. However, I will say that Con's attempt to paint Lincoln as a Champion of white supremacy is biased and unfair since Abraham Lincoln was a byproduct of his time and while he may have been critical of interracial marriage and made statements that were as racist today, His statements, which were largely for political purposes rater then personal thoughts, were considered normal during his lifetime. It is also not true about him denying African Americans the right to vote. Lincoln might have said he would not at some Pont. However, a week before his death. Lincon made a speech that said Blacks could vote as well. Lincoln’s Last Speech and a Call for Voting Rights – David J. Kent (davidjkent-writer.com)
Nevertheless, this argument of weather the Union or Lincoln was racist or not has no bearing to the Question of what the South was fighting for. They were either fighting slavery or they were not. Which is something that Con is not addressing.
Argument 2: Con argues that the US Essentially blackmailed and threatened States like Texas and Georgia into joining the United States. My opponent has provided no sources supporting this. If we fact check this claim, we will find out it is false. Both states willingly joined the Union. The Majority of the Texas population favored American annexation and willingly signed the paperwork themselves. Texas annexation - Wikipedia Georgia was one of the original 13 states. Statehood Dates – 50states Neither one was forced or "blackmailed" as Con claimed. Con Further asserts
The reality is that the following states quite simply did not consent any longer to be part of the US:Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia.
However, Con fails to realize or mention that statehood is eternal and that no state has power over the Federal government. The tenth Amendment, 10th Amendment - Rights Reserved to States or People | Constitution Center establishes that the decision on whether a state can secede from the Union is up to the Federal government. Not the states. It is also important to note that every single state that left the Union specifically said in their own words that they left to defend slavery rather than to be free of the United States in general.
There is even a concept here to make that would be marital rape. The reason I'd say marital rape is akin to what was going on is because the concept that a partner can rape their partner (typically husband raping a wife) seemed alien to people some decades ago. She 'consented' to the partnership, right? She's not always fighting him full force as he's overpowering and having his way with her, perhaps she's even been conditioned into tolerating it. This type of rape doesn't always have the bruising and full force signs of struggle that strange-type rape does:
I'm sorry but what heck does rape have to do with anything? The tenth Amendment gave the Federal government power over the state. It was not a case where states were denied rights and told to just deal with it. The Federal government specially was created because giving states total control over their fate failed as a government after 10 years. Articles of Confederation - Wikipedia the States left despite having no legal right to do so in 1860, and the Federal government's response was to be diplomatic about until 1861 after fort Sumpter was attacked. That is called biting the hand that fed you. Not Martial rape. Lastly, the relationship between states and the Federal government was never an equal partnership like marriage for this example to be valid.
The US was officially founded on July 4 1776 (when it won the war vs the British to establish itself completely).
Incorrect again. 1776 was when the first Congress was established and wrote the declaration in 1776. However, the war with Great Britain lasted until 1783. American Revolution | Causes, Battles, Aftermath, & Facts | Britannica
Argument 3: Con argues that the War was about the Confederacy not believing in Lincoln or his party. While this is true to a degree. Con forgets that quote I provided in the first round where the Vice president of the Confederacy affirmed that the preservation of slavery was the founding cornerstone of the Confederacy's formation. Con has also addressed none of the points I made that establishes the Confederacy was fighting for slavery and has instead made historical inaccuracies. Arguments about Lincolns racial views which are not relevant. And has ultimately failed to disprove the notion that the CSA was motivated by slaveries' continued existence.
The Confederacy's true formation date is probably unknown and a secret as it began as whispers and underground/backroom meetings and coalitions loosely forming over time. February 8, 1861 had the original member states officially state what they were and bear the flag.
This is completely false. The CSA was formed on February 8 in 1861. The original states formed in 1860 much later. Confederate States of America - Wikipedia
So there werer 2-3 generations (lifespans weren't long back then, so 85 years is actually towards a third generation, people were deteriorating significantly in their 30s and dying then too, people dying at 36 was normal). It's not unthinkable for some States involved to rethink their consent to engaging in this dynamic of the US owning them that their grandparents agreed to, not them.
No state has ever been enslaved by the federal government. All states have historically joined willingly and understood the conditions of statehood, which included obedience to the Federal government. In fact, during the timeline of the Civil War. Only two states are new to being states in the Union. Texas and California. Texas at this time had previously fought a war with Mexico because under Mexican governmence, they could not have slaves. California was a recently acquired state who entered the Union as a free state. If this claim of states not wanting to be part of the United States were true, why is it that all the states that left were slave states but only one newly acquired (and still slave state) left as well? Why would California not be rebelling as well since it was essentially a spoil of conquest against Mexico? The answer is because the conflict was about slaves keeping their slave populations. Not State independence from America.
The fundamental war can be said to have states that were pro-slavery involved. That's true. However, that commonality amongst them was not entirely absent in other states. Even states with abolished slavery were severely abusing black people and seeing them as inferior, as evidenced by what the frontrunner Lincoln said in my quoted speeches to appease them that the war wasn't about making black people equal to white people in the slightest.
Con is trying to conflate racial equality and slavery as the same thing. They are not. Con wants to say Blacks were mistreated in the Union. I Grant that. Were there slave states loyal to the Union? Yes. Nevertheless, It is a fact there were NO anti-slavery states fighting for the Confederate cause. There were only slave states fighting for it. There justification for leaving was based on Keeping slavery. The Confederate Government also stated that slavery and the enslavement of blacks. The Confederacy was fighting for, and only for, slavery.
Conclusion: I have established that Slavery was the primary cause of the Confederacy fighting the American Civil War. Con has tried in their own words to turn this into two separate debates. It is only one debate of consequence. The one that determines if slavery was the cause of the Confederacy. My opponent has tried to argue against this by attacking Abraham Lincoln's character and trying to demonize the Federal government. However, aside from a few quotes and sources that in my view do not really support the argument they make. Has given virtually no evidence and did not address any of my own sources in their counterargument. The Confidante Casuse was to continue the monstrous practice of slavery and nothing more.
Forfeited
Round 3
Seeing as my opponent has forfeited and thus not addressed my argument. I see no reason to make another.
Forfeited
Round 4
This round has been forfeited by my opponent once more. This debate, in my opinion, is done unless they truly present a case in the last round.
Forfeited
give Round 1 a good read :)
Lincoln the Republican freed the slaves in a war that was actually about slavery. The confederate flag should be burned.
Con believes the confederacy was fighting over, "States Rights" or something like that.
You may wish to clarify in the description.
Cowardice copout move of some folks.
so is con fighting that they were fighting because of slavery?