Instigator / Pro
1
1500
rating
2
debates
25.0%
won
Topic
#4724
abortion is murder
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with the same amount of points on both sides...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 9,998
- Voting period
- Six months
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1
1271
rating
354
debates
39.83%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Abortion is murder because you are killing a pre-born child. From the moment of conception, that child is a human life and to take away its life is to take away a fundamental human right to not be killed.
Actually, by aborting a child, you are preventing it from dying, since abortions take place before that which we know as "person" begins to live.
Giving birth is murder tho. By giving birth to a child, you are causing that child to die later in life, but also to suffer for years until death.
So abortion is not murder. Child birth is murder. And torture. Child birth is murder and torture.
Round 2
What is your definition of "person"? My view is that a human being is granted personhood from the moment of conception.
If I'm going to take your stance that a person is granted their personhood later on in the pregnancy, technically you are commiting murder against a human being by aborting the child/fetus/it because a child/fetus/it is a human being from conception although the child/fetus/it is not a person in your eyes. Therefore you are not "preventing the child from dying" when you perform an abortion on a mother, you are still causing the death of the child, who is a human being.
By giving birth to child you are not causing it to die later in life. If you gave birth to a child, and then the child grew into an adult, and got hit by a car, (which was not driven by you) the cause of death would be the car accident, not the birth of child by the mother.
Arguments
1. Personhood
Personhood is an arbitrary concept. For example, if cum is a person, then wearing condom during sex is murder.
My choice for giving personhood is after birth. When you are born, you have personhood. Before that, you are not a person. Fetus wasnt born. Fetus is not a person.
2. Giving birth to a rapist or murderer or both
Statistically, giving birth means that some rate of born children will grow up to be rapists or murderers or both. That could have been prevented by abortion.
Rebuttals
By giving birth to child you are not causing it to die later in life. If you gave birth to a child, and then the child grew into an adult, and got hit by a car, (which was not driven by you) the cause of death would be the car accident, not the birth of child by the mother.
If that person wasnt born, that person wouldnt get hit by a car. If his mother aborted, that person wouldnt get hit by a car. Child birth caused that person to get murdered by a car. His mother knew the possibility of him getting murdered by a car. Thats why its murder. His mother should have aborted.
Conclusion
Child birth is murder. Abortion is not murder.
Round 3
Personhood
Personhood is an arbitrary concept. For example, if cum is a person, then wearing condom during sex is murder.
According to biological fact, cum, (or sperm cells) are living organisms, but they are not people/human beings. Pre-born babies are living organisms and are also human beings/people. It always wrong to kill a human being/person. Furthermore, sperm cells contain 50% of DNA from the father and a part of the father but do not encompass the father as a whole. From the moment of conception we become whole individuals with our own unique DNA, equipped with the natural and immediate capacities to aquire characteristics that are only unique to the speicies Homo sapiens. While wearing a condom or using any other form of protection may kill sperm cells, this is justified as sperm cells are not human beings as a whole, although they are a part of certain human beings.
My choice for giving personhood is after birth. When you are born, you have personhood. Before that, you are not a person. Fetus wasnt born. Fetus is not a person.
If a fetus isn't a person in the womb, then what is a fetus in a womb? It is still a human being. Is it wrong to intentionally kill a human being? Yes.
What are your reasonings behind giving personhood after birth and not in the womb?
Giving birth to a rapist or murderer or both
Statistically, giving birth means that some rate of born children will grow up to be rapists or murderers or both. That could have been prevented by abortion.
There are a lot of factors influencing why people rape or murder. Many psychologists agree that it is because of aggression, fear, hostility, and the desire to exert power over others. This could be because of pain and abuse suffered by the rapist/murderer during his/her lifetime or even genetic factors that make the person more prone to commit violent acts. However, not all people who suffer child abuse grow up to be abusers, rapists, or murderers. Granted, there is a strong correlation, but it is not 100% certain that the child may repeat the actions of their parents, especially if they are removed from that situation and given psychological help as soon as possible. Furthermore, there are many cases in which murder is commited in which the murderer has grown up in comfortable conditions with a strong family and it is just their psyche that has caused them to commit murder/rape against another human being. Or they could have had the best, most secure childhood and fallen into dire situations as an adult that caused them to commit horrible crimes. However, there are also people who have experienced almost the same level or no level of psychological trauma and carry the same genes and do not commit such atrocities. Therefore, just the process of birth and the entrance into this world does not automatically deem that someone is going to become a rapist or murderer or both
Rebuttals/Clashes
If that person wasnt born, that person wouldnt get hit by a car. If his mother aborted, that person wouldnt get hit by a car. Child birth caused that person to get murdered by a car. His mother knew the possibility of him getting murdered by a car. Thats why its murder. His mother should have aborted.
If we said that all causes of death were births, then humans would have become extinct thousands of years ago. Just by saying that if the mother aborted that the person wouldn't have gotten hit by a car doesn't make sense because there could have been other factors which killed the adult in the future, such as old age. Furthermore, murder is an act of intentional killing. In this situation, the mother did not intentionally end the life of the child. She didn't plan the child's death and pick up a knife to kill him/her immediately after birth.
According to biological fact, cum, (or sperm cells) are living organisms, but they are not people/human beings. Pre-born babies are living organisms and are also human beings/people. It always wrong to kill a human being/person. Furthermore, sperm cells contain 50% of DNA from the father and a part of the father but do not encompass the father as a whole. From the moment of conception we become whole individuals with our own unique DNA, equipped with the natural and immediate capacities to aquire characteristics that are only unique to the speicies Homo sapiens. While wearing a condom or using any other form of protection may kill sperm cells, this is justified as sperm cells are not human beings as a whole, although they are a part of certain human beings.
This is just rambling. You cannot wear a condom and not kill a human being. Abortion and wearing a condom both result in human being not being born. Preventing the creation of a human being is wrong, if human being is important enough to live. Abortion is moral, if human being is not important enough to live. Next, we will see why human being is not important enough to live.
If a fetus isn't a person in the womb, then what is a fetus in a womb? It is still a human being. Is it wrong to intentionally kill a human being? Yes.What are your reasonings behind giving personhood after birth and not in the womb?
By same logic, cum is a human being. I already explained that personhood is arbitrary.
There are a lot of factors influencing why people rape or murder. Many psychologists agree that it is because of aggression, fear, hostility, and the desire to exert power over others. This could be because of pain and abuse suffered by the rapist/murderer during his/her lifetime or even genetic factors that make the person more prone to commit violent acts. However, not all people who suffer child abuse grow up to be abusers, rapists, or murderers. Granted, there is a strong correlation, but it is not 100% certain that the child may repeat the actions of their parents, especially if they are removed from that situation and given psychological help as soon as possible. Furthermore, there are many cases in which murder is commited in which the murderer has grown up in comfortable conditions with a strong family and it is just their psyche that has caused them to commit murder/rape against another human being. Or they could have had the best, most secure childhood and fallen into dire situations as an adult that caused them to commit horrible crimes. However, there are also people who have experienced almost the same level or no level of psychological trauma and carry the same genes and do not commit such atrocities. Therefore, just the process of birth and the entrance into this world does not automatically deem that someone is going to become a rapist or murderer or both
How is this a refutation to "Not being born prevents a person from being hit by a car, from being raped, from being rapist and other types of misfortune"?
If we said that all causes of death were births, then humans would have become extinct thousands of years ago.
Being born causes you to live for some time, get tortured and die. So no, humans would not become extinct.
Just by saying that if the mother aborted that the person wouldn't have gotten hit by a car doesn't make sense
Why it doesnt make sense?
because there could have been other factors which killed the adult in the future
"Other factors" doesnt change the fact that birth is the main factor for causing car accidents.
Furthermore, murder is an act of intentional killing. In this situation, the mother did not intentionally end the life of the child.
Intentionally gave birth = intentionally placed a child in a world where child will suffer and die.
She didn't plan the child's death and pick up a knife to kill him/her immediately after birth.
She tortured and killed a child by creating conditions in which child will be tortured and die.
Round 4
This is just rambling. You cannot wear a condom and not kill a human being. Abortion and wearing a condom both result in human being not being born. Preventing the creation of a human being is wrong, if human being is important enough to live. Abortion is moral, if human being is not important enough to live. Next, we will see why human being is not important enough to live.
If you take the proper time to read my arguments, you will probably come to the conclusion that it is not rambling. However I also think that your poor english probably factors into your belief that I am rambling.
Killing and preventing a life from coming into existence are not the same thing. Wearing a condom prevents a human life from coming into existence, which is moral because you cannot commit crimes against something which does not exist. On the other hand, killing a human life commits a crime against something which does exist. Abortion kills. Therefore abortion is immoral.
By same logic, cum is a human being. I already explained that personhood is arbitrary.
Cum is not a human being as I have explained above.
If personhood is arbitrary, then I believe that an attack helicopter is a person.
How is this a refutation to "Not being born prevents a person from being hit by a car, from being raped, from being rapist and other types of misfortune"?
It's only a probability that in your life you will die from a car accident, be raped, be a rapist or commit other heinous acts. There's also a good chance that you will die from old age, and in your life be a normal citizen who doesn't commit horrible crimes, depending on where you live. Therefore, there is no 100% guarantee that you will get hit by a car, be raped, or be a rapist, or commit some other horrible act if you are born. Furthermore, as I have written above, people look at the situation of the crime in that moment and determine who should be punished.
"Other factors" doesnt change the fact that birth is the main factor for causing car accidents.
It literally does though.
Intentionally gave birth = intentionally placed a child in a world where child will suffer and die.
Where a child might suffer and die.
Okay. Lets leave it at that, shall we?
Round 5
yes lol
Bye
What a poorly executed debate.
I cannot even bring myself to vote on it...since as Barney said, neither said met their BOP and I don't think it was a tie for anything.