Abortion is murder.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After not so many votes...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 18,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Definitions:
Murder:
Kill (a person) unlawfully and with malice.
Abortion:
Abortion is when a pregnancy is ended so that it doesn't result in the birth of a child.
Malice:
: desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another
Fetus:
An offspring of a human or other mammal in the stages of prenatal development that follow the embryo stage (in humans taken as beginning eight weeks after conception)
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Any other defintions should be in used in this primary context or should be presented first round (unless mentioned later on).
Rules:
- Unless requested otherwise before the debate begins, I believe these defintions are fair meaning you agree to my defintions.
- Burden of Proof is shared.
- Abortion is done with malice
- An embryo is still a person
- Not all abortions are done within the correct timing
- Everyone was once an embryo
- Embryos are not just a clump of cells
- Embryos have distinctive DNA of people, not a dog, not a cat
Kill (a person) unlawfully and with malice.
Abortion is when a pregnancy is ended so that it doesn't result in the birth of a child.
: desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another
An offspring of a human or other mammal in the stages of prenatal development that follow the embryo stage (in humans taken as beginning eight weeks after conception)
- A fetus is not a person.
- Abortions are not done with the intent of malice.
- The life of a fetus is misunderstood.
- While categorized as human by scientific terminology, there is nothing "human" about a brainless body.
Person- A person (PL: people) is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness.
Every person was born as an embryoNot a single person was born without being an embryo once in their life. This is the major connection. Nobody has skipped this process.The problem here is some people view them as not a person because they are not fully developed. This is the wrong idea. Children are not fully matured yet, are they? They are still growing. This doesn't mean they should be killed because they still are still growing. Same thing goes with an embryo. It's just as animals, they aren't viewed as not animals anymore because they are still in the animals (stomach). You don't just change race because of your development process.
Not all doctors proceed abortion on embryoMany people fail to recognize that many of the con-side choices are restricted to one part of the development process. Otherwise it contradicts themselves.A fetus does have a brain, and more features that distinguish itself. Some people get the misconception that abortion is always on an embryo. That is wrong. Fetuses are also jumbled in the mix.
III. Malice is done the moment you wish for the unborn to die.I'm unsure if I am using malice in the wrong context, so, we'll see.Malice is done with the intent when you ask to have an abortion. Why? It does not matter what the case is, that you want abortion, you still have the overall thought of wanting abortion. You have a choice to keep them, or seek intentional permeant harm on them. This is a choice. The idea of all this is, for their own personal interests such as their own personal self, they choose to kill the person. That is malice.
ContentionsA fetus lacks the capacity for reason, morality, and consciousness because it is not sentient.
And an organism cannot be born without the process of fornication or through sperm donation. There is no skipping this step.This doesn't mean that every sperm cell that dies is the loss of a human life, if we're using technicalities.
Even still, the cutoff point for an abortion is usually within 14 weeks. The starting point for the development of consciousness or sentience doesn't begin until the 18th week.
Pro's definition of malice is.:"Malice:: desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another"The majority of women who receive abortions would never wish suffering on another creature. Going through with an abortion does not even mean they desire to cause suffering to the fetus.
But a fetus is incapable of feeling pain anyway.
Assuming it could feel pain, it doesn't mean the woman wishes it suffering. It only means that her desire to terminate the pregnancy is greater than her desire to stop the injury to the fetus. This isn't the same as the want to cause it unnecessary pain.
- Malice implies a level of sadism where the specific intent is to derive pleasure from causing pain.
- Pain caused to someone else through Self-Preservation is based on a desire to look after oneself, while the other person is just collateral.
- Malice implies a level of sadism where the specific intent is to derive pleasure from causing pain.
- Pleasure in not having the pregnancy
- Pleasure in not having the child
- Pleasure in their pain
- Pain caused to someone else through Self-Preservation is based on a desire to look after oneself, while the other person is just collateral.
If a person takes six people hostage and tortures them for days, that is done with malice because the person is deliberately hurting them to take pleasure.But if a killer holds a victim at gunpoint and gives them the choice between killing someone else or being shot and the victim chooses to kill somebody in order to live. That doesn’t mean the person had a desire to hurt someone, but their instincts of self preservation were greater than their desire to not take someone else’s life.
- If there was no desire to murder the fetus, then they would keep the child.
- If there was no desire to kill the fetus, they would not issue to terminate a pregnancy.
“Before I get into the rebuttals, as for con's only response, many human beings don't have some of the things that con states.The fetus is their own individual person, they have their own distinctive DNA, they are their own person, not any other thing. They, in the development process do not change to a chicken or fox, they are like said, their own individual person. This doesn't change just because they lack some things that some humans have.”
“Con does not fully argue their point that was explained above.Fetuses do have brains, which I will later support.I argue that even (especially) babies, child, and adults sometimes lack morality. Obviously, you can not learn morality until you are taught . Do they have the potential to be taught morality? Yes.”
“"In just the fifth week after conception, the first synapses begin forming in a fetus’s spinal cord. By the sixth week, these early neural connections permit the first fetal movements–spontaneous arches and curls of the whole body–that researchers can detect through ultrasound imaging. Many other movements soon follow–of the limbs (around eight weeks) and fingers (ten weeks), as well as some surprisingly coordinated actions (hiccuping, stretching, yawning, sucking, swallowing, grasping, and thumb-sucking)."I'm not actually sure if scientists have changed such reasoning meaning this might be an uphill battle on when fetus can and can't feel.This is before 14 weeks which means they are killing a person that has a mind, can think, and can feel.”
- Movements like breathing, swallowing, and sucking aren’t until the 16th week. (Too late for an abortion.)
- The brain is too underdeveloped at this point, that it hasn’t formed the individual parts or functions that generate reason or thinking.
- Life at this stage operates on autopilot, so the baby’s body is not its own. It has no autonomy.
- The movements it makes are impulses based on physiological responses. Like the body’s heart rate getting faster after an intense cardio session.
“I slightly agree and disagree.It depends how you view pleasure. Let me break it down for pleasure :
- Pleasure in not having the pregnancy
- Pleasure in not having the child
- Pleasure in their pain
Now, since we already addressed this last round, I believe it would be either the first or second one. Maybe both. Though the way i'm using the world "pleasure" may come out confusing."I had great relief that the pregnancy was terminated""I had great relief that that I was not having a child"But I want to dig a bit deeper. I don't think you need to have any level of sadism.For example, one can kill someone but then on the other hand, feel bad about it and have no pleasure. But still killed them, with an intent to kill them.You can kill someone, not wanting them to suffer, but still have an intent on killing them.”
“Let me ask you this. If there was no desire what so ever to kill the other person, would the other person get killed? No. Because there would be no desire to go through with it.Specifically for abortion:
- If there was no desire to murder the fetus, then they would keep the child.
- If there was no desire to kill the fetus, they would not issue to terminate a pregnancy.
Main goal: Kill the fetus to "protect" themselves.”
- A 300 lb person may have the desire to lose weight in order to avoid a heart-attack, but they don’t want to eat salads or go to the gym to accomplish this.
A fetus cannot be compared to a baby, child, or adult. Because a fetus lacks a developed brain that has not generated sentience. Therefore, they currently do not have the capacity for morality.Capacity - The ability to receive or contain. (dictionary.com)They do, however, have the potential to develop that capacity.
This is misinterpreting scientific research.Sentience/Autonomy/Consciousness doesn’t start until between the end of the Second Trimester and the beginning of The Third Trimester.
- Movements like breathing, swallowing, and sucking aren’t until the 16th week. (Too late for an abortion.)
Con says that the baby’s movements within weeks 1-10 are a sign of life because of its brain and neural activity.
- The brain is too underdeveloped at this point, that it hasn’t formed the individual parts or functions that generate reason or thinking.
- Life at this stage operates on autopilot, so the baby’s body is not its own. It has no autonomy.
- The movements it makes are impulses based on physiological responses. Like the body’s heart rate getting faster after an intense cardio session.
Life is more like that of a self-driving vehicle with pre-programmed responses it generates to certain signals, not an actual person.
- I already covered reasoning, not even babies have reasoning
- Auto-pilot? The most funny thing about this is how you say "the babies body" not the fetues, but the babies - all our bodies have automatic responses
- Does movements made automatically mean they aren't human? This just proves the point even more, they are like humans. Humans hearts beat without them even trying.
A fetus is incapable of feeling pain until the 28th week. If a doctor were willing to perform an abortion at that point with this knowledge in mind, I might be willing to reconsider the malice definition.
No, it’s about compromising certain desires by prioritizing which one is more important.
- A 300 lb person may have the desire to lose weight in order to avoid a heart-attack, but they don’t want to eat salads or go to the gym to accomplish this.
The person in this case forces themselves to eat a salad and workout because they realize being healthy is more important than their desire to not eat salad or workout.I’m pretty sure nobody would argue that this person “desires to eat salad or workout.” The person desires to lose weight, but eating the salad and working out despite not wanting to, are requirements to achieve their actual goal.
Therefore, the main goal is not to “kill the fetus” to protect themselves.
The woman’s main goal is to avoid the responsibility of becoming an unwilling mother by giving birth. Terminating the fetus to reach that goal is just the step that’s required.
If she could’ve prevented the pregnancy by other ways, she would have. Women do not make a habit of using abortion as their main method of birth control. So the woman's main goal is not to "kill the fetus" or "cause it pain." This refutes the malice definition directly.Most medically performed abortions are also done lawfully
*Pro says that the baby’s movements within weeks 1-10 are a sign of life because of its brain and neural activity.
Alrightly, i'll touch up on that later on. Thanks.
You're confusing gestational development with psychological and physiological development via maturation.
You're arguing against potentiality =/= actuality, which is futile
You're not using the correct definition of malice:
"Malice
The intentional commission of a wrongful act, absent justification, with the intent to cause harm to others; conscious violation of the law that injures another individual; a mental state indicating a disposition in disregard of social duty and a tendency toward malfeasance."
An abortion is not a violation of the law (Pre overturn of RvW, though most states haven't and while some have restricted it, it is still legal). The pregnant girl/woman has no social duty to be the personal incubator for society.
You really have a Mt Everest to climb here with your position. Good luck.
Alright TWS1405_2, I looked at mostly everyone's votes. I'll specifically clear those ideas, from your vote, next round. And hopefully other people's votes.
Thanks for the previous vote.
Mhm.. I'll get to responding later, chill.
FFS, stay on topic.
I agree with Savant. LOL.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. It's already been established that Best.Korea is God and that anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.
Source: Best.Korea
LOL!
Everything I stated in the comments of that debate is factually accurate. It is not a subjective opinion, but rather objective (based on facts).
I take all comments and votes into consideration, and I will yours. though somethings mentioned in the comments are rather not criticizism but opinion based.
You will lose this debate too as you did the other, unless you take the criticism I provided within my vote and the comments section of that previous debate to heart.
Even if you can’t edit the description, you may still specify that Con approves Best.Korea’s change.
I take that back.
Well, I will not accept, however
Please add to abortion definition "when a pregnancy is intentionally ended by human action" or something like that.
You really dont wanna hear "pregnancy can be ended accidentally by falling downstairs".