Instigator / Pro

YouFound_Lxam

1472

rating

debates

45.59%

won

Topic

#4492

There exists 2 genders only, in the human race: Pt. 2

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...

Bella3sp

Parameters

Publication date: 05.21.2023 03:22PM
Last updated date: 07.04.2023 02:56PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 30,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Bella3sp

1524

rating

debates

74.07%

won

Description

Participants are allowed to go off of the previous debates arguments and points. They are allowed to use the previous debates for continuous rebuttals arguments etc.

Definitions:
Exists - have objective reality or being.

Human - a biological man, biological woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance

I want to keep it as similar as I can to the previous debate, given it is a part two. Just adding a couple more definitions.

Round 1

YouFound_Lxam

05.22.2023 04:02PM

Pro

This debate is a continuation of the previous debate titled," There exists, 2 genders only, in the human race"

If any voters are confused by this firsts arguments rebuttals, proceed to the previous debates last argument: https://www.debateart.com/debates/4446-there-exists-2-genders-only-in-the-human-race

I will provide a short description of my basic argument then proceed to rebuttal Cons arguments from the previous debate, that I didn't get the chance to rebuttal to.

Gender is a social construct according to my opponent. And because it is a social construct, it must be tied to some form of reality. In fact every single idea/perception etc, has to be tied to reality in some way shape or form. If an idea is not tied to reality in some way, it is impossible to perceive this idea, because the idea itself doesn't exist in reality, but we do know that gender itself exists, therefore it is tied to something in reality.

So being said, gender must be tied to reality in some way, shape, or form in order to be considered a social construct.

So either Gender is a social construct tied to reality.

Or Gender is basic fact.

Rebuttals:

But they are?

Something that is given to you when you are created versus something that you choose based on how you feel means yes, they are completely different. Take this, one is forced on you (sex), one is chosen by you (gender).

Again, based on how you feel is not reality.

Every single bad person to ever exist on this planet in the moment of what they were doing thought it to be the right decision according to them. They might have regretted it later in life at some point, but in the moment they felt as if what they were doing was right.

So choosing something based on how you feel is completely an idea/belief, and is not what gender is.

Gender is how you identify. Again, based on what? If it has no basis to reality then it can't be a social construct.

Also I do not like your wording. "forced on you". Why use that word? Is it looked down upon that you were created in a certain way?

Forcing something on someone means that you are doing something to them, that they are explicitly against. I was never against being born with a penis and neither were any of the other baby's who were born with one.

You may not like it in the future, but that would still not be forced, because in the moment you didn't care. You were a baby.

How they feel.
How you feel, I have a feeling this is going to be repeated multiple times.

You are saying that factually, gender is a social construct, and you are backing that fact up with feelings.

Facts do not care about your feelings.

This doesn't make any logical sense.

Okay, hear this, they are different things. Sex is not gender. Sex is forced upon you, gender is something you have a choice on. For example, I can't change my biological sex but I can change my gender to non-binary as an example.

Again, why use the word forced. Sex wasn't forced upon anyone.

Also non-binary? Meaning 2?

See? Even the basis of this identity is based off of the binary system we have today.

This focus is getting derailed, we aren't talking about sex. However, i'll continue..

But it exists, regardless of population.

Yea, so does people who are born without arms, but we don't say that there are more than 1 different kinds of humans because of it.

All humans look different, but are still humans. Just because someone is born with a birth defect, does not mean they are different than anyone else.

Alright, no need to be like that. You can try to down-grade the extent of my knowledge, unless i'm taking it the wrong way.. Anyways, your choice of words is correct. However, intersex is.

According to the National Institutes of Health (not middle school science by the way but should be taught) it states the following:
"A biological category based on reproductive, anatomical, and genetic characteristics, generally defined as male, female, and intersex."

So, according to the definition placed above of the biological category which is also the biological construction.

Well, they are full of s*** then.

You even said my statement was true.

There are 2 biological sex's, and one birth defect. Technically this article is just saying people can be defined as intersex, which is true, but they are still either male or female intrinsically.

The following above says it all ^^^^

Also, National Institutes of Health does confirm by saying:
"Sex is used when describing anatomical, chromosomal, hormonal, cellular, and basic biological phenomena. E.g., sex development, sex hormones, sex characteristics."

So your way of talking about sex is false.

It's not false in any way shape or form.

Sex has to be unique in order to be its own. If you have someone who has characteristics from male and female genitalia, then it is not its own sex, it is a weird combination of the two, but still a person with one baseline biological sex.

I don't need to.

And technically speaking, hermaphrodites can self-reproduce. So, if you count them being impregnated by themselves and giving birth, count them in. I will say, I haven't researched much about hermaphrodites so I won't go into extreme detail.

Well, if your saying that intersex is it's own sex, then yes you do.

Again human hermaphrodites, which are extremely rare cannot impregnate themselves and give birth to a fully functioning human.

Give me one example of one human that can both impregnate, and get pregnant.

Let me confirm that these were options that I predicted you were going to take a route on. These were not confirmed, just a hunch of mine.

Now, as I stated, I predicted the route you were going to use. Not a route I was going to use. However, I will say that I could use option A for myself.

I can actually completely disregard all my ideas about gender and state gender doesn't exist. Therefore denying your "only two genders" because in that argument, genders don't exist. In fact, I can even state that there is only one gender. I have multiple possibilties you only have one. You might be confused as you read this, but I stated Cisgender was a gender, correct? Alright, so if Cisgender is a gender which is your assigned gender which includes indentifiying as your assinged biological sex which is under female and male, then I could completely say there is only one gender. I have loopholes that clear all paths.

But I decided to keep this argument simple, that's alright isn't it?

Once you decide to go into the realm of ideas and what could be then you have lost.

If pro states that gender exists, then anything under gender exists. If this doesn't follow, anything under the definition of gender exists as a gender because it is defined as so.

You can't say that everything under gender is a gender, then add random genders whenever you'd like.

Gender is something we came up with as humans. Something our minds came with, based on how we feel.

Gender is something we use to signify if someone is male or female. Originally used based upon whether someone was born with certain genitalia.

Already denied and can be referred back to in any round.

Deny all you want. It's not helping your case.

But they are Cisgender,

I am not cisgender. I am male.

No, Cisgender is, but not female and male.

So if I say I identify as female, that is not a gender.

Are you saying that man and woman are not genders?

If so you have just created an entirely new construct.

So do certain clothing's, behaviors, and appearances tie to certain genders?
No nessarically. But sometimes they do have a realtion. For example, its how you feel inside. And expressing that comes in all different ways, some maybe I didn't even list. In all, it's how you as an individual feels.

This doesn't answer the root of my question.

Example: So, if I have infertility I am no longer consider a female? What am I then?

I said capability as in, having the required organs, and attributes to reproduce, even if you aren't able to because of a disability, disorder, or something going wrong with your development.

Consider that female and male aren't a gender

You are probably going to lose the debate just by this statement alone.

it is Cisgender. Cisgender is the realtion to being alligned with your biological sex. So, if you disclude all my other genders then pro would still be wrong

"my genders"? So you are telling me that you have your own idea of what genders are, and I am supposed to accept that as fact?

These genders are listed under the genders that humanity has, deny it or not, they are there.

Humanity? No.

A specific group of people who believe that? Yes.

Bella3sp

05.29.2023 04:02PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 2

YouFound_Lxam

05.30.2023 02:28PM

Pro

Nothing else really to add so.

Bump.

Bella3sp

06.06.2023 01:14PM

Con

Thanks YouFound_Lxam for your patience,

Point:

Case

My case is straight forward, I am going to prove that there are more than two genders. However, I will prove doing so by providing that one, gender is not a social construct, and two gender is diverse. In the process, I will clear some underlying things.

Burden:

This is shared between both users.

Pro must uphold that first off, there are two gender and defend there is not more than those genders.

Con must uphold that there are more or less than two genders.

Defintions:

What is gender?

[a] person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or male; a girl, a woman, or female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender non-conforming, boygirl, ladyboy) which may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics. Since gender identity is internal, a person’s gender identity is not necessarily visible to others.

Source: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201907/time-move-beyond-gender-is-socially-constructed#:~:text=Since%20gender%20identity%20is%20internal,not%20necessarily%20visible%20to%20others.&text=Gender%20cannot%20simultaneously%20be%20socially,to%20cultural%20expectations%20and%20norms.

What is sex?

Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Source: https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html#:~:text=Sex%20is%20usually%20categorized%20as,men%2C%20and%20gender%20diverse%20people.

What is a social construct?

A social construct is a concept that exists not in objective reality, but as a result of human interaction.

Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/definition-of-social-construct-1448922

Alright, so from here I will be mentioning new points or slightly different. Why? Because going on the same route as the last debate, puts me at the same downfall. Rebuttals I will clear next round. So, let me make clear, gender is not a social construct. I viewed your summary, and no, gender is not a social construct.

I. Gender is not a social construct.

The only problem with this debate is how your frame "exists". But anyways...

Basically, I will be quoting one site. How I would frame this is not completely the same but this site does clear the underlying issues with the idea that gender is a social construct.

"Gender cannot simultaneously be socially constructed and inherent to the individual.

In the APA definition, sex refers to the biological reproductive apparatus, while gender refers to cultural expectations and norms. Drawing on this distinction, when people say that gender is socially constructed, they tend to assert that sex is independent of gender.

However, if gender is an arbitrary creation of society, how is it possible for gender identity to be an “internal” and “inherent” sense of self? It is not possible for gender to simultaneously be an arbitrary product of culture and an inherent experience of the individual. If gender comes from the culture, how can it also be an inherent property of the individual person?"

Furthermore..

"Are there psychological differences between and among sexes (or genders)? Phrased in this way, these are not interesting questions. It makes no sense to ask about the “psychological nature” of males, females, intersex individuals, or of individuals who identify themselves in terms of prevailing gender categories. That is because there is no “nature” that is independent of social context; there is no social organization that is independent of biology.

Persons are not fixed beings with fixed natures. If we want to understand persons, we must look at them as individuals who develop over time as products of complex relations between their biology and their cultures."

Social construct with all genders?

If you say gender is in fact a social construct, that means these other two genders your talking about are a social construct. I can argue that it's not, however, if voters decide that it is a social construct that means the two genders you think exist, are a social construct.

So, are genders really socially constructed?

Are you going to switchup and say, only other underlying genders are socially constructed?

I already think I know your answer, and how you'll answer, but we'll see.

II. Sex is not related to all genders.

Sex versus Gender

Sex and gender are not completely the same. This is going to be an uphill battle of, is sex gender.

"[a] person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or male; a girl, a woman, or female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender non-conforming, boygirl, ladyboy) which may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics. Since gender identity is internal, a person’s gender identity is not necessarily visible to others.

Sex refers to biological and physiological characteristics. Your genitals, hormones, and chromosomes all relate to your sex."

Which shows the difference between the two.

However, keep in mind what I quoted in my first contention.

Cisgender = He/Him or She/Her

"Female and Male", that is common for some people to suggest as a gender is different.

The word for this is Cisgender. Cisgender is coresponding with your sex related to by birth however, that doesn't show that all other genders have to. That is where I hold my objection. Other genders such as Non-Binary don't corospond with there biological sex. And that's fine. It's still a gender even if you do not agree with how the gender is defined as.

III. Genders are diverse.

There are multiple genders.

- Cisgender

- Transgender

- Gender neutral

- Non-binary

- Agender

- Genderqueer

These ones are simply off the top of my head.

However for more genders refer to this link:

https://young.scot/get-informed/gender-identity-terms/

Remember that all genders change from places to places, and there are multiple diverse genders such as races.