Instigator / Pro

Sir.Lancelot

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Topic

#4474

Azathoth is more powerful than the God of the Bible.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After not so many votes...

It's a tie!

Tags

Christianity

Parameters

Publication date: 05.11.2023 10:35AM
Last updated date: 06.01.2023 03:34PM
Type: Rated
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,500
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open
Minimal rating: None

Contender / Con

Best.Korea

1233

rating

403

debates

39.45%

won

Description

On-balance.

Definitions:
Powerful- Having great power or force or potency or effect.

Rules:
1. Definitions are not absolutes. But any attempts to change the established definition must have a valid enough justification or it will be disregarded.

2. Pro can only use sources from only H.P. Lovecraft’s publications or wiki-lore that reports on his content. (Books or creations written by himself.) But Pro can’t use evidence from fanfiction.

Con can pull from The Bible or any sources from Judaism & Christianity.

3. One forfeit is the loss of a conduct point. Two are an autoloss.

Round 1

Sir.Lancelot

05.13.2023 01:52AM

Pro

Azathoth:

(“There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic Ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep.“)

“He had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a black throne at the centre of Chaos.
…
How could he be sure he would not land on that green-litten hillside of a far planet, on the tessellated terrace above the city of tentacled monsters somewhere beyond the galaxy or in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos where reigns the mindless demon-sultan Azathoth?”

Azathoth, also known as the Lovecraftian Primordial God, the Nuclear Sultan, Chaotic Shadow Twin of God, and The All-Seeing Horror, is the primordial Outer God who exists as the embodiment of madness, chaos, disorder, and boundlessness, being the ultimate enemy of Creation, the supreme antithesis of order and peace. He is the anti-God who in the end times upon His awakening will destroy all of creation.

Megaversal Omnipotence: Azathoth is an entity of unlimited powers and no barriers for what he can or cannot do, his power level rivals that of the God himself and Khaos, narrowly surpassing those of Ayin, the Anti-God. Azathoth is the supreme god of lovercrafian myths, being the supreme archetype that precedes all things, being ineffable, existing in silence and immobile, separate from all things of creation, encompassing everything and everyone within his being, including the Outer Godsand The One-In-All, with them being just an infinitesimal fraction of Azathoth himself. He is eternity, which is beyond the wheel of time, not only existed but existence itself.

https://gods-and-demons.fandom.com/wiki/Azathoth

Best.Korea

05.13.2023 07:41PM

Con

I will argue that they are equally powerful.

Mark 10:27

"Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.""

Mark 14:36

"And He was saying, “Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.”"

Jeremiah 10:6

"There is none like You, O Lord;

You are great, and great is Your name in might"

Clearly, we see that God of the Bible is all powerful. So Azathoth can be either weaker either equally powerful.

What needs to be noted is that God of the Bible does not boast often about his own strength. Instead, he prefers to be humble and he even sometimes appears in form that has limited powers while the totality of Him still has all powers.

Round 2

Sir.Lancelot

05.15.2023 02:08AM

Pro

As shown by my first argument, Azathoth’s powers are limitless. When he awakes, the universe will cease to exist.

Since the universe’s existence is directly contingent on Azathoth’s state of mind, it logically reasons that the catastrophic impact of one thought is too significant, while the effort is minimal.

While God has to seemingly concentrate his intention and use words to produce the desired effect, it stands to reason that more effort is required on God’s part to make things as he wishes.

Comparatively, Azathoth is simply stronger.

Best.Korea

05.16.2023 02:31PM

Con

While God has to seemingly concentrate his intention and use words to produce the desired effect, it stands to reason that more effort is required on God’s part to make things as he wishes.

I dont think God has to use words to make things happen.

Sometimes he does use words, but nothing implies he has to use them.

Also, you have to have intention to produce desired effect. If there is no intention, then the effect is not desired.

God of the Bible is described as "consuming fire".

Bible Hebrews 12:29

"for our God is a consuming fire."

Deuteronomy 4:24

"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God"

Isaiah 30:27

"Behold, the name of the LORD comes from afar,

Burning with His anger,

And His burden is heavy;

His lips are full of indignation,

And His tongue like a devouring fire."

Zephaniah 1:18

Therefore wait for Me,' says the LORD,

' Until the day I rise up for plunder;

My determination is to gather the nations

To My assembly of kingdoms,

To pour on them My indignation,

All My fierce anger;

All the earth shall be devoured

With the fire of My jealousy

We have already seen in round 1 that all things are possible for God of the Bible.

What can Azathoth do that God of the Bible cant?

Round 3

Sir.Lancelot

05.17.2023 07:01AM

Pro

So as evident for the reasons Azathoth’s power is superior to God. Here are the reasons I’ve established so far.

Overview

Minimal Effort - High Quality Creation

(Without trying, he was able to dream the universe into existence. This requires less effort than speaking it into existence.)

High Effect Without Intention

(The birth of the universe was completely accidental on Azathoth’s part. A true sign of power too grand that Azathoth himself doesn’t know his own strength. Meanwhile God has to seemingly concentrate his intention to produce the desired effect.)

Destruction on a Mass Scale

When all is said and done, God will destroy the Earth with fire. As it is the Center of Life.
When Azathoth awakens, not only will the Earth be destroyed but so will the entire universe and everything in it.

Authority & Hierarchy

God is the only being of his kind.
Azathoth belongs to a race of entities that he himself created and rules over. He even commands a legion of deities like himself called, “The Old Ones.”

“Azathoth is the Greatest God, who rules all infinity from his throne at the center of chaos.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth

Creation & Destruction

God created The Stars, and The Earth. Which he will destroy at the End.
Azathoth created many universes, planets, and stars. And his own realm in which other ancient alien deities currently reside. The quantity of these creations far outweighs anything God has created or designed. And Azathoth will destroy them too.

Azathoth is also responsible for creating monsters capable of destroying entire planets.

“The Cthulhu Mythos Multiverse is one that has been inundated with with various nightmarish monsters, powerful enough to destroy worlds and damage reality on a whim.”

https://superepicfailpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos_Multiverse

Best.Korea

05.17.2023 04:33PM

Con

Pro is yet to provide an example of what God of the Bible cannot do.

"Powerful- Having great power or force or potency or effect."

God of the Bible chooses not to destroy the entire universe. This does not lead us to conclusion that he cannot do it.

If you break a glass and I dont, it doesnt mean that you are more powerful. I can break a glass too. I just choose not to.

However, Pro did say that Azathoth does not have full control over his power. Azathoth cannot control his power. Therefore, it is not his power anymore. So there you have it.

Round 4

Sir.Lancelot

05.18.2023 07:16AM

Pro

There are limitations to God’s abilities. For example, one of his weaknesses is iron.

Weapons and implements made from cold iron are often granted special efficacy against creatures such as fairies and spirits.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore#:~:text=Weapons%20and%20implements%20made%20from,metal%20burns%20them%20on%20contact.

19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. The LORD was able to drive out people from Canaan, except for those with iron chariots? Iron chariots are therefore more powerful than God!

https://rarebible.wordpress.com/2010/04/25/iron-chariots-too-powerful-for-god/

Azathoth, however, possesses no such limitations or weaknesses.

Best.Korea

05.18.2023 11:23AM

Con

The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots.

"They" talks about men of Judah.

God was with them. It doesnt say "God fought together with them".

God can be present, approving, but not actually engaging in a fight.

The talk about having weakness to iron is not found anywhere in the Bible.

As already mentioned, Azathoth cannot do what he wants because he cannot control his power. His power does things he doesnt want.

The comparison between the two is:

Azathoth reminds us of a drunk man who doesnt know what he is doing.

God of the Bible has complete control over everything and over all his actions.

God of the Bible can control everything, including his power.

Azathoth cannot control his power. That is weakness.

Round 5

Sir.Lancelot

05.18.2023 01:36PM

Pro

Azathoth’s non-control doesn’t mean inability to control. He can very easily control his powers if he chooses to. He just doesn’t need to, so they operate without his conscious intervention.

In the Lovecraftian hierarchy, there is something called the Law of Least Effort. Power is defined as high impact proportional to your minimal effort.

Azathoth is such a Celestial Powerhouse that he is the epitome of this description. He can very easily take command if he wanted to, but his divine physiology is vastly different. His powers are designed to function on autopilot.

Much like how the human’s body autonomy is limited to your ability to move your limbs, speak, and blink, but you have zero control over your body’s internal mechanisms such as heartbeat, metabolism, or homeostasis. Your body does this subconsciously, which is how Azathoth functions too. This allows him to sleep as long as he wants.

But the difference is Azathoth is perfectly capable of manually assuming command at any point, if he so desires. He just chooses not to. He remains hands-off while God is consciously in control at all times. God does not have this power.

Rebuttals

“Azathoth reminds us of a drunk man who doesnt know what he is doing.

God of the Bible has complete control over everything and over all his actions.

God of the Bible can control everything, including his power.

Azathoth cannot control his power. That is weakness.”

Even if I assume this is true, which it isn’t because I talked in depth about Azathoth’s abilities, lack of control wouldn’t say anything about who is more powerful. Assume there are two weight-lifters that will be competing.

Weight-lifter #1 is an amateur who can only dead-lift 230 lbs.
Weight-lifter #2 is a professional weight-lifter who can deadlift 400 lbs.

The competitors show up to the competition, but #2 is so drunk that he can barely stand properly, let alone walk without falling. Competitor #2 is unable to lift that day, due to his intoxicated state. #2 is still stronger than #1.

Clumsiness and immobility doesn’t change the fact that his body still possesses more strength than the former.

“"They" talks about men of Judah.

God was with them. It doesnt say "God fought together with them".

God can be present, approving, but not actually engaging in a fight.

The talk about having weakness to iron is not found anywhere in the Bible.”

The outsider source actually confirms that the biblical verse’s context is demonstrating God’s own inability to overcome the enemy, due to the iron.

This is why Iron was the exact material that was used to kill a divine being like Jesus when he came to Earth.

“A new study has reignited a heated dispute about two corroded Roman-era iron nails some suggest were used to crucify Jesus.”

https://www.livescience.com/roman-era-nails-crucifixion-jesus.html

Best.Korea

05.18.2023 03:34PM

Con

#10

He can very easily control his powers if he chooses to.

Which contradicts to:

Azathoth himself doesn’t know his own strength

Doesnt know his power = cannot control his power

Pro needed to simply present something that Azathoth can do which God of the Bible cannot.

Law of least effort does not tell us anything that God of the Bible cannot do, since Bible does not say anywhere that God cannot make things happen without using words or intention.

But we have seen from Pro's own arguments that there are things which Azathoth cannot do but which God of the Bible can. For example, Azathoth cannot know his power and therefore cannot control it. This does not tell us how Azathoth's power is greater. It merely tells us that God of the Bible is better in controlling his power.

The comparison between two weight lifters is invalid, since Pro assumed one is more powerful, and then concluded that one is more powerful, which is circular reasoning. Plus, he admitted that even the stronger weight lifter would lose strength when intoxicated and being unable to control himself.

If we assume the power is equal when both have full control over it, its obvious that power becomes weaker in one of them when he loses control over it.

Azathoth cannot control his power, since he cannot know it. Therefore, he is an equivalent of being intoxicated at all times. Hence, weaker.

The outsider source regarding iron is obviously false, since the Bible is the only valid source for describing God of the Bible. Pro's source is also irrelevant, since the description of the debate doesnt even allow him to use such source.

Jesus was not a manifestation of God's full power, but merely a limited version of God himself. Plus, it is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible that Jesus had weakness to iron.

As proven by quotes from the Bible, God of the Bible is all powerful. Therefore, Azathoth can be either weaker either equally powerful, since there is no greater power than that which is all powerful.

And that is why Azathoth cannot be more powerful than God of the Bible.

Best.Korea

05.12.2023 12:38PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

I mean, this would be easier if it was
azathoth vs. allah.

Sir.Lancelot

05.12.2023 11:54AM

-->

@Mall

@Best.Korea

@YouFound_Lxam

Any takers?