Instigator / Pro
4
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4413
Zeus from Greek Mythology is more powerful than the God of the Bible
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
BennyEmerald
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- 4
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- Two days
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- 10,000
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- Two weeks
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Contender / Con
7
1522
rating
14
debates
28.57%
won
Description
On-balance.
Definitions:
Impressive- Having the power to excite attention, awe, or admiration.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Neither character exists, but this is irrelevant to the debate. Given everything we know of Greek Mythology and everything we know of the God of the Bible, Zeus is more powerful.
I will use three separate definitions for Powerful and argue that Zeus is superior in ALL of them.
3 Definitions of Powerful
- (Merriam-Webster) Having great power, prestige, and influence.
- (Dictionary) Having or exerting great power or force.
- (Macmillan) Able to influence or control people.
Power, prestige, and influence
The God of the Bible reigns above mankind as the only almighty being, insecure in his own authority that the worship of other deities makes him insecure.
But it’s hard to get a grasp of just how powerful a being is when there are no standards of comparison. Man worship The Greek Gods because they rule over him.
Zeus’s divinity means he naturally rules over man, much like Yahweh (The Bible God.). But Zeus reigns over all the gods, making him the main authority of his kind. The fact that he commands respect and authority over beings that are alike demonstrates a level of power, prestige, and influence not shared by the biblical god.
Exerting great power or force.
Yahweh has only ever opposed weaker beings and remains hands-off, using his power to let his creation do the battles for him. It was Michael who cast down Lucifer, not God.
Meanwhile, Zeus has survived and conquered beings stronger than him like Kronos and Typhon. He wields the lightning bolt which is a symbol for explosive power and he regularly engages in wars and battles of all kinds. It was through Zeus’s bloodline that powerhouses like Hercules, Ares, and Athena were born.
Influence and controlling people.
Mankind in the Bible created sin without Yahweh’s intervention.
Zeus indirectly introduced the 7 evils by unleashing Pandora’s Box upon the world.:
- Greed
- Wrath
- Pride
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
Con
#2
I will use three separate definitions for Powerful and argue that Zeus is superior in ALL of them.
Alright then, I will hold you to that.
Definitions
- (Macmillan) Able to influence or control people.
This definition is slightly inaccurate to the MacMillan definition. The definition from the site is "able to influence or control what people do or think", and so I will be using that definition and not the one you cited. I agree with the rest of the definitions you cited.
I will also define some other terms used in the definitions you provided.
The Merriam-Webster definition of power is: "ability to act or produce an effect".
The Merriam-Webster definition of prestige is: "standing or estimation in the eyes of people".
The Merriam-Webster definition of influence is: "the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways".
Power, Prestige, and Influence Definition of Powerful
There are three things which matter under this definition: power, prestige, and influence.
Power, as previously defined, means the ability to act or produce an effect. God in the Bible is portrayed as being able to do anything. To give a quote of this, "God can do anything, you know — far more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams!" (Ephesians 3:20-21). Clearly, this means God can act to do anything and produce any effect, which under the definition of power makes him extremely powerful. According to Ducksters.com, Zeus "had a number of powers. His most famous power is the ability to throw lightning bolts". So, he had a strong ability to act and produce effects, but he could not do every act and produce every effect like the biblical God. Clearly, this shows that the biblical God has more power than Zeus.
Prestige, as previously defined, means the standing or estimation in the eyes of people. So, let's look at the standing or estimation that both the biblical God and Zeus have in the eyes of most people. According to Worlddata.info, "Christianity has the most followers worldwide with over 2.2 billion believers". According to Wikipedia, there are "2,000 adherents to the Hellenic tradition in Greece". To those unfamiliar, the Hellenic tradition in Greece is the religion which believes in Zeus. Zeus, in the eyes of most people is a false deity and thus heavily lacks standing or estimation in the eyes of people, with only 2000 straying from this belief. The biblical God is also seen as a false deity and lacks standing or estimation in the eyes of the people for many, but 2.2 billion stray from this belief and increase the biblical God's prestige, which is far more than Zeus. Thus, the biblical God has more prestige than Zeus.
Influence, as previously defined, means the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. As covered previously, the biblical God can do absolutely anything, including causing any effect he wants in an indirect or an intangible way. For instance, the biblical God can use the fact that he can do absolutely anything to peer into the possibilities of the future, and cause some effect by doing something small and letting that domino into an effect that he wants in the future (i.e. the butterfly effect). Zeus, on the other hand, is limited in what he can do and thus lacks the same influence. Thus, the biblical God also has more influence than Zeus.
Clearly, all of this shows that the biblical God is more powerful than Zeus under this definition.
Having or Exerting Great Power or Force Definition of Powerful
There are two things that this definition cites as being powerful: Having great power or force and exerting great power or force. Clearly, the biblical God has more power than Zeus as God can do anything he wants while Zeus is limited in what he can do. However, God also exerts greater power or force than Zeus as well. To give some quotes that show this, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). Clearly, creating the entire Earth and making an afterlife in heaven is exerting great force. "So God made the two large lights. He made the larger light to rule during the day and the smaller light to rule during the night. He also made the stars" (Genesis 1:16). Making the Sun, Moon, and every single star in the sky is also an instance of exerting great power. The Bible goes on to say in Genesis that God created everything at the beginning of the universe, the Universe itself and everything in it was God's creation. Clearly, making everything is a massive show of exerting great power of force. Zeus does nothing which is even close to this. The biblical God is clearly more powerful than Zeus under this definition.
Able to Influence or Control People Definition of Powerful
It should be noted that this definition relates to being able to influence or control people, not necessarily meaning that they do influence or control people but that they are capable of it. As discussed previously, God is capable of doing anything he wants, meaning he can influence or control people however he wants. Zeus, on the other hand, lacks the ability to influence or control as well as God because he is limited in what he is able to do. So, clearly, this definition also supports the idea that God is more powerful than Zeus.
Conclusion
As I have clearly shown, the biblical God is undeniably more powerful than Zeus under all 3 definitions of powerful.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Rebuttals
Power, as previously defined, means the ability to act or produce an effect. God in the Bible is portrayed as being able to do anything. To give a quote of this, "God can do anything, you know — far more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams!" (Ephesians 3:20-21). Clearly, this means God can act to do anything and produce any effect, which under the definition of power makes him extremely powerful. According to Ducksters.com, Zeus "had a number of powers. His most famous power is the ability to throw lightning bolts". So, he had a strong ability to act and produce effects, but he could not do every act and produce every effect like the biblical God. Clearly, this shows that the biblical God has more power than Zeus.
This doesn’t mean that the Biblical God (Yahweh) is more powerful than Zeus. It just means his powers are more diverse compared to Zeus.
Presume that there are two 35 year old athletes.:
- Athlete #1 is a professional boxer that has been training his whole life, but only went pro at age 20.
- Athlete #2 is an MMA fighter who only knows boxing, kick-boxing, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling but has only trained for six months in each of these.
Despite Athlete #2 being more well-rounded, Athlete #1 is still the better fighter because he maxed out so well in one sport, that Athlete #2’s versatility and experience has not matched.
What is the technical phrase? Jack of all trades.
While not possessing as many abilities as Yahweh, Zeus’s overall power level is still so considerably high, that it’s above Yahweh’s.
Prestige, as previously defined, means the standing or estimation in the eyes of people. So, let's look at the standing or estimation that both the biblical God and Zeus have in the eyes of most people. According to Worlddata.info, "Christianity has the most followers worldwide with over 2.2 billion believers". According to Wikipedia, there are "2,000 adherents to the Hellenic tradition in Greece". To those unfamiliar, the Hellenic tradition in Greece is the religion which believes in Zeus. Zeus, in the eyes of most people is a false deity and thus heavily lacks standing or estimation in the eyes of people, with only 2000 straying from this belief. The biblical God is also seen as a false deity and lacks standing or estimation in the eyes of the people for many, but 2.2 billion stray from this belief and increase the biblical God's prestige, which is far more than Zeus. Thus, the biblical God has more prestige than Zeus.
Yahweh is the target of many parodies and jokes that throw shade at him.
He hasn’t amassed the respect that Zeus has because comics, TV shows, and video games depict Zeus as an iconic badass.
The Zeus of the Percy Jackson series is cool and intimidating at the same time.
One of the most famous video game franchises, God of War, has so much respect and admiration for Zeus that they made him one of the most relevant characters in the series by giving him the role of one of the 4 mentors.
Even in Marvel comics, Zeus is right up there with Odin. With such a relic of the ancient world, fiction has ressurected him into being an icon of today’s time that Yahweh has failed to do.
The Olympics (most famous competitions of today) was started during the ancient Greek period and was done to honor Zeus.
“Zeus was worshiped far and wide across the Greek world, including at festivals such as the Olympic Games. His legacy as the greatest of gods also meant that he became the favored deity of great leaders in the ancient world.”
Influence, as previously defined, means the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. As covered previously, the biblical God can do absolutely anything, including causing any effect he wants in an indirect or an intangible way. For instance, the biblical God can use the fact that he can do absolutely anything to peer into the possibilities of the future, and cause some effect by doing something small and letting that domino into an effect that he wants in the future (i.e. the butterfly effect). Zeus, on the other hand, is limited in what he can do and thus lacks the same influence. Thus, the biblical God also has more influence than Zeus.
Yahweh struggled to get the Pharaoh (a mortal man) to release the Jews with the threat of punishment, but Zeus was able to intimidate Calipsa (a goddess) into releasing a man with a similar threat.
There are two things that this definition cites as being powerful: Having great power or force and exerting great power or force. Clearly, the biblical God has more power than Zeus as God can do anything he wants while Zeus is limited in what he can do. However, God also exerts greater power or force than Zeus as well. To give some quotes that show this, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). Clearly, creating the entire Earth and making an afterlife in heaven is exerting great force. "So God made the two large lights. He made the larger light to rule during the day and the smaller light to rule during the night. He also made the stars" (Genesis 1:16). Making the Sun, Moon, and every single star in the sky is also an instance of exerting great power. The Bible goes on to say in Genesis that God created everything at the beginning of the universe, the Universe itself and everything in it was God's creation. Clearly, making everything is a massive show of exerting great power of force. Zeus does nothing which is even close to this. The biblical God is clearly more powerful than Zeus under this definition.
That does not semantically fall under the definition of exerting great power or force because you’re describing creation. An example of meeting this definition is destruction. Which Zeus certainly matches better.
“As the god of thunder, Zeus also has the ability to control the weather in ancient Greek myths. He can cause rain, clouds, and huge storms, including thunder and lightning. In addition to this, Zeus has the ability to control the movement of the stars, the motion of day and night, and even control time.”
Lightning can blast people a good distance of 30 feet. Zeus’s ability to move the stars means he is better at exerting force, especially with the power to create hurricanes.
What Con has described is an architect, but what I have described is a terrorist.
It should be noted that this definition relates to being able to influence or control people, not necessarily meaning that they do influence or control people but that they are capable of it. As discussed previously, God is capable of doing anything he wants, meaning he can influence or control people however he wants. Zeus, on the other hand, lacks the ability to influence or control as well as God because he is limited in what he is able to do. So, clearly, this definition also supports the idea that God is more powerful than Zeus.
Yahweh was unable to convince Adam & Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. His influence here was proven inferior to that of a Talking Serpent. He couldn’t stop sin from being unleashed into the world.
He was unable to convince the Pharaoh to let his people go.
But Zeus was able to cause humans everywhere to sin by deliberately cursing them with Pandora’s Box.
Con
#4
Rebuttals:
This doesn’t mean that the Biblical God (Yahweh) is more powerful than Zeus. It just means his powers are more diverse compared to Zeus.Presume that there are two 35 year old athletes.:
- Athlete #1 is a professional boxer that has been training his whole life, but only went pro at age 20.
- Athlete #2 is an MMA fighter who only knows boxing, kick-boxing, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling but has only trained for six months in each of these.
Despite Athlete #2 being more well-rounded, Athlete #1 is still the better fighter because he maxed out so well in one sport, that Athlete #2’s versatility and experience has not matched.What is the technical phrase? Jack of all trades.While not possessing as many abilities as Yahweh, Zeus’s overall power level is still so considerably high, that it’s above Yahweh’s.
This is incorrect. As previously explained, the biblical God is able to do absolutely anything, with no limitations, while Zeus is limited both in what he can do and the level of power he can exercise. Thus, the biblical God has both more diverse powers and is more powerful.
Yahweh is the target of many parodies and jokes that throw shade at him.He hasn’t amassed the respect that Zeus has because comics, TV shows, and video games depict Zeus as an iconic badass.The Zeus of the Percy Jackson series is cool and intimidating at the same time.One of the most famous video game franchises, God of War, has so much respect and admiration for Zeus that they made him one of the most relevant characters in the series by giving him the role of one of the 4 mentors.Even in Marvel comics, Zeus is right up there with Odin. With such a relic of the ancient world, fiction has ressurected him into being an icon of today’s time that Yahweh has failed to do.The Olympics (most famous competitions of today) was started during the ancient Greek period and was done to honor Zeus.“Zeus was worshiped far and wide across the Greek world, including at festivals such as the Olympic Games. His legacy as the greatest of gods also meant that he became the favored deity of great leaders in the ancient world.”
Do you think that the slight respect people give Zeus due to him being an icon in media even comes close to the fanatical respect and prestige offered by 2.2 billion people believing in the biblical God's existence? Some basic media attention cannot make up for the prestige of being the most worshipped being currently in the world.
Yahweh struggled to get the Pharaoh (a mortal man) to release the Jews with the threat of punishment, but Zeus was able to intimidate Calipsa (a goddess) into releasing a man with a similar threat.
This is an argument against the influence of the biblical God in comparison to Zeus. The issue is that the influence is not defined by having caused effects in indirect or intangible ways, but simple the capacity for it. Influence, as previously defined, means the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. In other words, one does not necessarily have to use that power or capacity, but simply to have it. It is true that Zeus makes more use of his influence than the biblical God, as you have shown, but use does not matter, the the capacity for causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways matters. And, to reiterate a previous point, as the biblical God can do anything the biblical God has an infinite power or capacity for being able to cause an effect in indirect or intangible ways whereas Zeus is limited in his methods of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. Ergo, the biblical God has more influence than Zeus.
That does not semantically fall under the definition of exerting great power or force because you’re describing creation. An example of meeting this definition is destruction. Which Zeus certainly matches better.
Power is defined as the ability to act or produce an effect. Thus, creation would fall under exerting great power just as destruction would. According to Merriam-Webster, force is defined as: "strength or energy exerted or brought to bear". Clearly, creation is an example of energy exerted or brought to bear. Ergo, great feats of creation fall under the definition of exerting great power or force just as destruction does.
“As the god of thunder, Zeus also has the ability to control the weather in ancient Greek myths. He can cause rain, clouds, and huge storms, including thunder and lightning. In addition to this, Zeus has the ability to control the movement of the stars, the motion of day and night, and even control time.”
All of those are extremely impressive, however are they as impressive as the creation of the entire universe? The answer is clear: none of these things come even close to the beginning of the universe, therefor the biblical God is more powerful.
Yahweh was unable to convince Adam & Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. His influence here was proven inferior to that of a Talking Serpent. He couldn’t stop sin from being unleashed into the world.He was unable to convince the Pharaoh to let his people go.But Zeus was able to cause humans everywhere to sin by deliberately cursing them with Pandora’s Box.
The biblical God, as he could have done anything, could have convinced Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. If he wanted, he could have just not made the Tree of Knowledge in the first place. So why did he? Because he wanted Adam and Eve to have free will to make their own choices. He could stop sin from the world, but that would sacrifice free will. Also, note something I said earlier: "It should be noted that this definition relates to being able to influence or control people, not necessarily meaning that they do influence or control people but that they are capable of it". It doesn't matter if Zeus does a better job at influencing or controlling people as long as God is simply capable of doing a better job (even if he deliberately doesn't, which he see here).
Round 3
Pro
#5
Firstly, power diversity isn’t the same as being more “powerful.”
As proven by the examples, Athlete #2 has more versatility in his style of fighting, but his command of these styles simply cannot match Athlete #1, so Athlete #1 is the better fighter despite only knowing how to box.
While the Bible claims limitless power for Yahweh, it is actually inconsistent with supporting this claim which makes me question its reliability.
Infact, The Bible even hints at God’s incompetence and mortality.
- “…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19
So an all-powerful, omnipotent being is unable to overcome the source of his own creation? But we have Zeus leading a revolt against the Titans, who are considered the most powerful creatures in existence, and beating them.
Christians consider God and Jesus to be one of the same. Since this is the case, how is it that mortal man can kill him off?
Meanwhile, Zeus’s immortality means he is incapable of dying.
As for prestige, despite the majority of the world considering Zeus an imaginary figure, he is certainly more respected than Yahweh. Atheists do not regard Yahweh as an impressive being, but one of disdain. Similarly, if it weren’t for christians’ belief in Yahweh, he would be treated with hatred or indifference. No level of belief or worship can compensate for the status Zeus receives in the entertainment industry.
This is an argument against the influence of the biblical God in comparison to Zeus. The issue is that the influence is not defined by having caused effects in indirect or intangible ways, but simple the capacity for it. Influence, as previously defined, means the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. In other words, one does not necessarily have to use that power or capacity, but simply to have it. It is true that Zeus makes more use of his influence than the biblical God, as you have shown, but use does not matter, the the capacity for causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways matters. And, to reiterate a previous point, as the biblical God can do anything the biblical God has an infinite power or capacity for being able to cause an effect in indirect or intangible ways whereas Zeus is limited in his methods of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. Ergo, the biblical God has more influence than Zeus.
So Con concedes this point then?
Let’s be clear, anyone can claim Yahweh has more power & influence all they want. But when it comes to stories demonstrating these speculated feats, there are more examples of evidence that make a more convincing case of Zeus being superior.
If God does not prove his abilities, then all claims of his powers are unsubstantiated, and all arguments defending him are moot.
Power is defined as the ability to act or produce an effect. Thus, creation would fall under exerting great power just as destruction would. According to Merriam-Webster, force is defined as: "strength or energy exerted or brought to bear". Clearly, creation is an example of energy exerted or brought to bear. Ergo, great feats of creation fall under the definition of exerting great power or force just as destruction does.
No, they don’t. No matter how much Con says they do. And for Yahweh to need sleep on the 7th day simply demonstrates that he is easily fatigued, despite not physically doing anything. It’s only natural for such an eternal being to not age well. He is afterall past his prime.
But Zeus can fornicate with multiple goddesses, fight wars, and kill monsters without ever tiring. The implication is that Zeus is the indomitable force to be reckoned with. Not feeble Yahweh.
The biblical God, as he could have done anything, could have convinced Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. If he wanted, he could have just not made the Tree of Knowledge in the first place. So why did he? Because he wanted Adam and Eve to have free will to make their own choices. He could stop sin from the world, but that would sacrifice free will. Also, note something I said earlier: "It should be noted that this definition relates to being able to influence or control people, not necessarily meaning that they do influence or control people but that they are capable of it". It doesn't matter if Zeus does a better job at influencing or controlling people as long as God is simply capable of doing a better job (even if he deliberately doesn't, which he see here).
Either he has this ability or he doesn’t.
There is more evidence of Zeus’s divinity & influence, than there is for Yahweh’s. The Free Will seems too much like a bogus claim, when we consider that Yahweh was so insecure in his power that he felt threatened by humans becoming as powerful as him.
- Genesis 3:22-24
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Con
#6
Firstly, power diversity isn’t the same as being more “powerful.”As proven by the examples, Athlete #2 has more versatility in his style of fighting, but his command of these styles simply cannot match Athlete #1, so Athlete #1 is the better fighter despite only knowing how to box.
As I previously explained (and you ignored) God is both more power diverse and more powerful. Yes, Athlete #2 in your examples has more versatility in his still of fighting but is still less powerful than Athlete #1, but this comparison does not apply to God and Zeus. God, as I have shown previously, can do absolutely anything. He can use any power, thus he more power diverse. In addition, as he can do anything, he is unlimited in the power he can display whereas Zeus is limited in the level of power he can display.
While the Bible claims limitless power for Yahweh, it is actually inconsistent with supporting this claim which makes me question its reliability.
In the Bible, God (Yahweh) creates the entire universe, something that any of Zeus's feats pale in comparison to. I would consider this a strong support for the fact that God does indeed have limitless power in the Bible.
Infact, The Bible even hints at God’s incompetence and mortality.
- “…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19
So an all-powerful, omnipotent being is unable to overcome the source of his own creation?
You are misinterpreting this quote. Judah is the one driving out the inhabitants of the mountain, God was simply with him. Regarding as to why God didn't simply step in, that would be because God generally doesn't like interfering with humans free will, and only does so sparingly.
But we have Zeus leading a revolt against the Titans, who are considered the most powerful creatures in existence, and beating them.
Is this more impressive than the creation of the entire universe? Clearly not.
Christians consider God and Jesus to be one of the same. Since this is the case, how is it that mortal man can kill him off?
Because Jesus allowed it. God/Jesus doesn't like interfering with the free will of humans and does so sparingly, so they allowed the mortal man to kill off Jesus's form temporarily before resurrecting him.
Meanwhile, Zeus’s immortality means he is incapable of dying.
This is untrue. Unlike God who can never truly die (when Jesus died it was just his physical form which temporarily died), Zeus is not truly immortal and can die. If the sky and lightning hold no significance, Zeus dies as his domain is gone. If God and Zeus were in a fight, for instance, God could simply remove all sky and lightning and instantly kill Zeus, which clearly indicates that God is more powerful.
As for prestige, despite the majority of the world considering Zeus an imaginary figure, he is certainly more respected than Yahweh. Atheists do not regard Yahweh as an impressive being, but one of disdain. Similarly, if it weren’t for christians’ belief in Yahweh, he would be treated with hatred or indifference. No level of belief or worship can compensate for the status Zeus receives in the entertainment industry.
So the extreme amount of reference and immense respect and prestige offered by the 2.2 billion Christians around the world is dwarfed by Zeus being more prevalent in the entertainment industry? Clearly, this makes no sense. A small amount of respect and prestige offered by watching a piece of media cannot make up for a sliver of the prestige offered by devout worshippers.
This is an argument against the influence of the biblical God in comparison to Zeus. The issue is that the influence is not defined by having caused effects in indirect or intangible ways, but simple the capacity for it. Influence, as previously defined, means the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. In other words, one does not necessarily have to use that power or capacity, but simply to have it. It is true that Zeus makes more use of his influence than the biblical God, as you have shown, but use does not matter, the the capacity for causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways matters. And, to reiterate a previous point, as the biblical God can do anything the biblical God has an infinite power or capacity for being able to cause an effect in indirect or intangible ways whereas Zeus is limited in his methods of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways. Ergo, the biblical God has more influence than Zeus.So Con concedes this point then?Let’s be clear, anyone can claim Yahweh has more power & influence all they want. But when it comes to stories demonstrating these speculated feats, there are more examples of evidence that make a more convincing case of Zeus being superior.
Are you purposefully not reading my argument? I just explained how making use of influence does not matter but instead simply the capacity for it is what matters under the definition. Your entire response here is not addressing this but instead reiterating the point that Zeus makes more use of his influence. Yet, he does, but so what? Making use of influence, as I just described, does not matter under the definition of influence. You have not addressed the fact that the definition of influence clearly makes it so that it does not matter how one makes use of that influence and thus I will consider this point conceded by you as you have given a completely irrelevant argument that does not address the definition of influence or any of my arguments but simply repeats an argument I already debunked.
If God does not prove his abilities, then all claims of his powers are unsubstantiated, and all arguments defending him are moot.
God's abilities are proven within the Bible when he says he has an infinite capacity to do anything. You say the claims of these powers are unsubstantiated, but clearly they are not. Firstly, he creates the entire universe in the Bible, so how could that be the case that it is unsubstantiated. Secondly, both Zeus and God exist in entirely fictitious worlds. Because they don't actually exist, saying something has infinite power is the same as demonstrating it as both are events that haven't actually happened; they are both just things in a story. An event demonstrating something power would be equally unsubstantiated because none of them happen. For this debate to function, Zeus is described "from Greek Mythology" and God described from "the Bible" as per the claim. Thus, both universes will be evaluated as if they exist and the words within them are true, as if it was assumed otherwise this entire debate would become meaningless as both entities would provably not exist.
Power is defined as the ability to act or produce an effect. Thus, creation would fall under exerting great power just as destruction would. According to Merriam-Webster, force is defined as: "strength or energy exerted or brought to bear". Clearly, creation is an example of energy exerted or brought to bear. Ergo, great feats of creation fall under the definition of exerting great power or force just as destruction does.No, they don’t. No matter how much Con says they do.
And what is your reasoning for saying creation does not count? If power is just the ability to act or produce an effect (as described previously), then creation would clearly count as part of demonstrating power. You are simply saying it doesn't count without giving evidence.
And for Yahweh to need sleep on the 7th day simply demonstrates that he is easily fatigued, despite not physically doing anything. It’s only natural for such an eternal being to not age well. He is afterall past his prime.But Zeus can fornicate with multiple goddesses, fight wars, and kill monsters without ever tiring. The implication is that Zeus is the indomitable force to be reckoned with. Not feeble Yahweh.
As a being of infinite power, God obviously did not have to rest. He simply did so because he wanted to, as evidenced by the fact that if he was truly fatigued he could have just removed it due to having infinite power. In addition, no biblical scriptures cite God resting due to fatigue but instead him simply wanting a break.
The biblical God, as he could have done anything, could have convinced Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. If he wanted, he could have just not made the Tree of Knowledge in the first place. So why did he? Because he wanted Adam and Eve to have free will to make their own choices. He could stop sin from the world, but that would sacrifice free will. Also, note something I said earlier: "It should be noted that this definition relates to being able to influence or control people, not necessarily meaning that they do influence or control people but that they are capable of it". It doesn't matter if Zeus does a better job at influencing or controlling people as long as God is simply capable of doing a better job (even if he deliberately doesn't, which he see here).Either he has this ability or he doesn’t.There is more evidence of Zeus’s divinity & influence, than there is for Yahweh’s. The Free Will seems too much like a bogus claim, when we consider that Yahweh was so insecure in his power that he felt threatened by humans becoming as powerful as him.
He does have this ability, he simply doesn't use it as explained above. He is capable of it even if he doesn't use it. Even if we assume the free will claim is not Gods reason, it is undeniably true that the Bible has God with infinite power, thus he is capable of influencing and controlling people regardless of his reasoning for not doing so.
Round 4
Pro
#7
This debate is “on-balance,” and Con seems more interested in arguing semantics and making claims rather than demonstrating evidence or the strength of his claims.
In effect, I have established that.:
- Zeus has conquered beings stronger than himself whereas God hasn’t opposed other deities.
- Proven that Zeus has garnered more respect as a permanent icon than Yahweh has, as the spiritual figureof a cult leading billions.
- Shown Zeus’s ability to get his way from other gods & goddesses through threats and demands, whereas Yahweh struggles to get the pharaoh to release his people, a King to worship him, and loses a contest of persuasion to a reptile. Clearly, this demonstrates Zeus’s superior influence.
If that weren’t enough, it was Zeus who caused mankind to sin intentionally but Yahweh cannot stop man from sinning. This means Zeus has more control over man.
Rebuttals
In the Bible, God (Yahweh) creates the entire universe, something that any of Zeus's feats pale in comparison to. I would consider this a strong support for the fact that God does indeed have limitless power in the Bible.
Zeus beat and conquered the Titans. (The beings who created the world.)
You are misinterpreting this quote. Judah is the one driving out the inhabitants of the mountain, God was simply with him. Regarding as to why God didn't simply step in, that would be because God generally doesn't like interfering with humans free will, and only does so sparingly.
If it’s free will, what is the point of God’s intervention?
This is more a demonstration of his impotence than political ethics.
Is this more impressive than the creation of the entire universe? Clearly not.
The Titans created the universe and Zeus defeated them.
Case in point, Zeus can beat Yahweh too because Zeus is more powerful.
This is untrue. Unlike God who can never truly die (when Jesus died it was just his physical form which temporarily died), Zeus is not truly immortal and can die. If the sky and lightning hold no significance, Zeus dies as his domain is gone. If God and Zeus were in a fight, for instance, God could simply remove all sky and lightning and instantly kill Zeus, which clearly indicates that God is more powerful.
That only renders Zeus powerless, that isn’t going to kill him.
His divinity still remains intact, making him impossible to kill. Yahweh isn’t strong enough to take Zeus’s power away and he wouldn’t even if he could because he places too much emphasis on free will.
Yahweh would want the fairest fight as possible and that’s why he dies a brutal death by the hands of Zeus.
So the extreme amount of reference and immense respect and prestige offered by the 2.2 billion Christians around the world is dwarfed by Zeus being more prevalent in the entertainment industry? Clearly, this makes no sense. A small amount of respect and prestige offered by watching a piece of media cannot make up for a sliver of the prestige offered by devout worshippers.
Being the leader of a cult doesn’t = prestige. He has people beainwashed.
Yahweh is clowned on by atheists but christians and atheists alike all see Zeus as remarkably impressive.
God's abilities are proven within the Bible when he says he has an infinite capacity to do anything. You say the claims of these powers are unsubstantiated, but clearly they are not. Firstly, he creates the entire universe in the Bible, so how could that be the case that it is unsubstantiated. Secondly, both Zeus and God exist in entirely fictitious worlds. Because they don't actually exist, saying something has infinite power is the same as demonstrating it as both are events that haven't actually happened; they are both just things in a story. An event demonstrating something power would be equally unsubstantiated because none of them happen. For this debate to function, Zeus is described "from Greek Mythology" and God described from "the Bible" as per the claim. Thus, both universes will be evaluated as if they exist and the words within them are true, as if it was assumed otherwise this entire debate would become meaningless as both entities would provably not exist.
They’re both fiction, but this is irrelevant.
Yahweh can make as many bold claims as he likes, but can he prove them or not? Con gives no verses or proof, so Yahweh’s abilities remain unsubstantiated.
And what is your reasoning for saying creation does not count? If power is just the ability to act or produce an effect (as described previously), then creation would clearly count as part of demonstrating power. You are simply saying it doesn't count without giving evidence.
Because creation doesn’t semantically fall under physical exertion, nor have you given a definition that would match this.
So far, all Con’s rebuttals are “he could, but he chooses not to!” He doesn’t show biblical evidence for this. Vote Pro.
Con
#8
This debate is “on-balance,” and Con seems more interested in arguing semantics and making claims rather than demonstrating evidence or the strength of his claims.
I am not. In R1 I have listed out proof that in each category God beats Zeus. I have then proceeded to dismantle your arguments against that.
- Zeus has conquered beings stronger than himself whereas God hasn’t opposed other deities.
Other deities do not exist in the Bible so this is a comparison which cannot be made.
- Proven that Zeus has garnered more respect as a permanent icon than Yahweh has, as the spiritual figureof a cult leading billions.
A few movies haven't made Zeus a spiritual figure of a cult leading billions. You have failed to provide proof of this.
- Shown Zeus’s ability to get his way from other gods & goddesses through threats and demands, whereas Yahweh struggles to get the pharaoh to release his people, a King to worship him, and loses a contest of persuasion to a reptile. Clearly, this demonstrates Zeus’s superior influence.
If that weren’t enough, it was Zeus who caused mankind to sin intentionally but Yahweh cannot stop man from sinning. This means Zeus has more control over man.
Extend previous arguments on free will. God has the ability to do these things, but just chooses not to. This is a point you haven't addressed.
Zeus beat and conquered the Titans. (The beings who created the world.)
Again, I ask if that demonstrates more power than the creation of the entire universe.
You are misinterpreting this quote. Judah is the one driving out the inhabitants of the mountain, God was simply with him. Regarding as to why God didn't simply step in, that would be because God generally doesn't like interfering with humans free will, and only does so sparingly.If it’s free will, what is the point of God’s intervention?This is more a demonstration of his impotence than political ethics.
God wasn't intervening in this case as I described previously.
Is this more impressive than the creation of the entire universe? Clearly not.The Titans created the universe and Zeus defeated them.Case in point, Zeus can beat Yahweh too because Zeus is more powerful.
You haven't provided proof that Titans created the universe such as citing a source. I have done a good bit of research online and cannot find information on the Titans making the universe and am thus inclined to believe that they didn't; especially since you have BOP for if you assert a claim.
That only renders Zeus powerless, that isn’t going to kill him.His divinity still remains intact, making him impossible to kill. Yahweh isn’t strong enough to take Zeus’s power away and he wouldn’t even if he could because he places too much emphasis on free will.Yahweh would want the fairest fight as possible and that’s why he dies a brutal death by the hands of Zeus.
Then God can simply render Zeus powerless in a fight. And God wouldn't want a "fair fight" with Zeus and also couldn't die to him. God could just force Zeus to lose all of his powers and imprison him forever.
So the extreme amount of reference and immense respect and prestige offered by the 2.2 billion Christians around the world is dwarfed by Zeus being more prevalent in the entertainment industry? Clearly, this makes no sense. A small amount of respect and prestige offered by watching a piece of media cannot make up for a sliver of the prestige offered by devout worshippers.Being the leader of a cult doesn’t = prestige. He has people beainwashed.
Yes it does, especially if we consider Christians brainwashed. This is because God would be in extremely high standing (i.e. having great prestige) to the 2.2 billion people brainwashed to follow God.
God's abilities are proven within the Bible when he says he has an infinite capacity to do anything. You say the claims of these powers are unsubstantiated, but clearly they are not. Firstly, he creates the entire universe in the Bible, so how could that be the case that it is unsubstantiated. Secondly, both Zeus and God exist in entirely fictitious worlds. Because they don't actually exist, saying something has infinite power is the same as demonstrating it as both are events that haven't actually happened; they are both just things in a story. An event demonstrating something power would be equally unsubstantiated because none of them happen. For this debate to function, Zeus is described "from Greek Mythology" and God described from "the Bible" as per the claim. Thus, both universes will be evaluated as if they exist and the words within them are true, as if it was assumed otherwise this entire debate would become meaningless as both entities would provably not exist.They’re both fiction, but this is irrelevant.Yahweh can make as many bold claims as he likes, but can he prove them or not? Con gives no verses or proof, so Yahweh’s abilities remain unsubstantiated.
The above argument addresses the claim about proof. The fact that they are fiction is very relevant.
Because creation doesn’t semantically fall under physical exertion, nor have you given a definition that would match this.
This is a matter of power not physical exertion, and obviously creation is a facet of power.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
There's a back-and-forth here, but a lot of the same claims are repeated from one round to the next. Pro claims that Zeus can defeat more powerful beings and has prestige in entertainment, among other things. Con claims that Yahweh can do anything he wants. Both sides sort of leave it up to me to decide which of these denotes "more power." This puts Pro at a disadvantage given the biases that people come in with. It seems to me that the definition "having or exerting great power or force" favors Con, especially when it is argued that Yahweh has the capacity to do anything he wants.
There's the free-will argument, and Pro argues that Yahweh was unable to convince people to do things, yet there's little discussion about whether convincing someone to do what you want demonstrates more power than giving them free will. Con argues that Yahweh can do either ("whatever he wants"), and since religious traditions are essentially treated as reliable descriptions of either deity, so far as this debate is concerned, a biblical passage saying that Yahweh is all-powerful is as reliable as any other evidence offered. For example, Pro treats a legend that Zeus defeated another deity as reliable, so if I accept that, I have to accept biblical claims as reliable as well. That's the only fair way of analyzing this, and Con points it out explicitly, saying "both universes will be evaluated as if they exist and the words within them are true."
So given the definitions of power that are agreed on by both sides, I have to give this to Con. I'll give credit to Pro though for making several creative arguments and picking the harder side of the resolution.
Thank you!
This was a good one, and I think both sides did the best job possible given the resolution. I hope my analysis wasn't too harsh.
Thank you!
On it.
I forgot about this debate. Would you guys like to vote?
I figured Con would use that as their main argument.
It's funny because bibical god created the world with just a few days and could've done it with a snap of his fingers. Anything Zeus can do, god can as well because he is all powerful. Anyone who accepts in auto win.
At least from the little i've read.
Would this be nullified by how we interpret God? Because Zeus is limited as a god, as he has to share the powers with other gods? And God is the only God in the universe, and he is all-powerful and perfect and can do anything?