Instigator / Pro

DavidAZ

1500

rating

debates

68.75%

won

Topic

#4249

The Trinity is not in the Bible.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

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After 2 votes and with 11 points ahead, the winner is...

Melcharaz

Parameters

Publication date: 03.09.2023 04:16PM
Last updated date: 03.16.2023 10:45PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: Two hours
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Melcharaz

1504

rating

debates

66.67%

won

Description

My first debate so I will apologize now for informal terminology.

Terms: Trinity will be defined as Catholic Dogma as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost(Spirit), three in one, co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent. All three persons in on God, but all distinct from the other.

My position will be that there is no such thing as the Trinity in the Bible.

You may use any reference you want.

If you need to change terms, then please message me.

Round 1

DavidAZ

03.09.2023 06:02PM

Pro

Thanks for participating! All Bible used will be KJV for me. Good luck to Melcharaz! He is going to need it. :)

My position is simply that the Trinity does not exist in the Bible. First the word Trinity is not in the Bible. It was invented about 100 years after the bible was written. Second, there is no term of God the Son in the bible either. Again, that was fabricated afterwards. In fact, all biblical scholars will tell you that the understanding of God is a mystery.

If the Trinity is co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent:

How can one be given by the other?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Who has more authority to send and to give? Does the Father own the Son that he can him "His"?

How can a word against the Son be forgiven but against the Holy Ghost never be forgiven? Does the Holy Ghost have a mean temper that the Son does not?

Mathew 12:32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come

Why was Jesus praying to God in the Garden? Shouldn't he pray to himself? How is it that he would have a different will than the Father? A little Psychosis going on here.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

How is it that Jesus will be subject to the Father in the end? Is it really that "big daddy" does call all the shots?

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Who gets to sit upon the Throne? are they playing musical chairs?

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

How is the Holy Ghost the father and the "Father"? Maybe we should do a paternity test.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

How is the Father the only Savior and not Jesus? Hmmm . . . Sounds like a good plot to a B-action movie. Son wants the power but Father doesn't give it.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

This is show that the Bible never taught or even showed that there was a Trinitarian doctrine given. It was made up from corrupt church pastors to incorporate the pagan rituals and beliefs. Look up any pagan religion at the time of Christ and you will find a trinitarian formula for their God. The most damning is the Vedic Gods, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Exact same positions of co-equal, power etc.

I await your Trinitarian response. And please don't start with "God cannot be understood". I want Bible, not philosophy.

Melcharaz

03.09.2023 07:08PM

Con

i was hoping for a more nuianced, detailed expository of the Godhead, this level of reasoning, lack of cross referencing and hermaneutics is embarrasing.

First, lets lay a ground work.

God is a spirit

https://biblehub.com/text/john/4-24.htm

God is not a man

https://biblehub.com/text/numbers/23-19.htm

Therefore the man Jesus Christ is not God, But is Formed by God and filled with his Spirit.

https://biblehub.com/text/luke/1-35.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/4-1.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/luke/4-1.htm

what does the name Jesus even mean? what does Christ mean?

jesus: https://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/2424.htm

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3091.htm

God has become salvation.

Christ: https://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/5547.htm

He is also called emmanuel.

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/1-23.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/7-14.htm

God with us.

So then, the man Jesus Christ, was both God and flesh.

So what was the purpose of God being in flesh?

1: To destroy the work of the devil.

https://biblehub.com/text/1_john/3-8.htm

2: To reconcile man to God

https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-16.htm

ephesians 2:13-18

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

How then can by 1 Spirit can God both be and reconcile us by?

He is 1 spirit and he reconciles us by the Blood of Jesus Christ and by filling us with his spirit.

1 spirit:https://biblehub.com/text/deuteronomy/6-4.htm

Mediator/reconcilor:

hebrews 9:13-17https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-15.htm

13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Spirit: preached for salvation

https://biblehub.com/text/acts/2-38.htm

So for mankind to be saved they must Have God's Holy Spirit in them.

https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/4-30.htm

Given acts 2:1-4

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

promised ot: https://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/28-11.htm

isaiah 28:9-12

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

promised nt: https://biblehub.com/text/acts/1-8.htm

Now that the foundation is established as to what God is, What Jesus Christ is, and what the Holy Spirit is.

WE MUST DEFINE PERSON!

Since Davidaz didnt do that, i will take the liberty.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

or we can use a definition that doesnt automatically assert trinitarian idealology.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/person

In essence, a person is a human being.

OR a self conscious rational being. OR a personality.

So my burden is to prove 1 of the following according to scripture.

1: God is 3 human beings

2: God is 3 self conscious (definition https://www.dictionary.com/browse/conscious) beings

3: God is 3 rational beings (rational definition https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rational)

4: God has/is capable of 3 personalities that are unique and distinct from each other.

and to satisfy the requirements of the burden of proof i must define it according to terms

Terms: Trinity will be defined as Catholic Dogma as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost(Spirit), three in one, co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent. All three persons in on God, but all distinct from the other.

I will attempt to do so next round so that davidaz may prepare for the attempt.

Round 2

DavidAZ

03.09.2023 09:08PM

Pro

Forfeited

Melcharaz

03.09.2023 09:20PM

Con

ill make this quick. its arrogant to assume you can discuss trinity in 2 rounds with 2 hours.

you need at minimum 3 rounds and at least 2 days to gather info and provide a solid exegesis with scripture.

if the purpose of this debate is to draw out mall, ill save you the trouble. he probably aint intrested.