Instigator / Pro

M.H.S

1480

rating

debates

12.5%

won

Topic

#4132

Batman wearing Hellbat would most likely defeat base Thor in a fight.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 2 votes and with the same amount of points on both sides...

It's a tie!

Tags

Comics

Marvel

Batman

Thor

Parameters

Publication date: 02.04.2023 10:25PM
Last updated date: 03.08.2023 05:11AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 29,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Sir.Lancelot

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

M.H.S

02.05.2023 03:57PM

Pro

Hellbat has defeated Darkseid and mangled his face, he didn't feel the effect of Darkseid's punches, and he caught Darkseid's Omega-Beam (which is faster than light) at close range.

Thor was able to pull two levers to destroy a star. He fainted afterwards. He once survived the energy of a neutron star. He almost died. He can only go as fast as his lightning.

So when comparing strength, Hellbat mutilated a god's face. Thor was only able to destroy a star.

In durability, Hellbat tanked Darkseid's punches, who at multiple occasions defeated Superman, whose weaker version once closed a Black Hole. So basically, Hellbat was hit with more for force than needed to close a Black Hole. And he took zero damage. Thor nearly died when exposed to the energy of a neutron star.

Now when comparing speed, it is important to remember that even though Hellbat is a suit worn by Batman, who isn't really a fast person, Hellbat uses AI technology that let's it move and work based on how Batman would've wished. Because of this, the Hellbat was able to catch the Omega-Beam using a Chaos Shard. So this means that Hellbat can move faster than light. Thor can only outrun his lightning (lightning is not the same as light, it is 2400 times slower).

This is why I think that Hellbat could defeat Thor.

Sources:

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Hellbat

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Thor

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Thor

Sir.Lancelot

02.05.2023 05:27PM

Con

This is too big of a mismatch.

Even with all of Hellbat’s feats, he isn’t going to do any serious damage. At the very least, puts up somewhat of a fight or mildly inconveniences Thor but defeats???

Hellbat’s abilities

Enhanced Strength

Durability
Flight
Energy Blasts
Invisibility
Super Vision
SuperSpeed
Instant Healing
Multiversal Teleportation
Shape-Shifting
Ejecting Any Part
Advanced A.I
Voice Commands
Powerful Chest Insignia Port
Shields

https://averagebeing.com/batman-hellbat-armor/

Thor’s powers

Life-Force
Godly Strength
Invulnerability
Superhuman speed, stamina, and senses.
Regenerative healing factor
Longevity
Super breath
Flight
Self Sustenance
Earth Control
Vast Energy Elimination
Electrokinesis
Rain manipulation

https://www.superherodb.com/thor/10-140/powers/

The strengths of the Hellbat are thrown off-balance by Thor’s durability and the suit’s limitations.

The Hellbat is sort of like a Marvel symbiote in that it drains the host of its metabolism. Thor is not affected by such weaknesses to that extent by virtue of being immortal.

Thor’s biology, durability, and combat prowess means he wouldn’t even need to fight, just outlast the Hellbat until it self destructs.

Let me ask Pro, what was the Hellbat’s strongest feat?

Round 2

M.H.S

02.05.2023 07:37PM

Pro

Let's talk about Thor's "durability" since throughout your argument, you used the word twice to attempt to prove that Thor can resist Hellbat.

Your source for Thor, superherodb.com, is highly inaccurate. People can edit information on the site. The moderators are as incompetent as Wikipedia moderation.

How is Base Thor invulnerable?

According the Collins Dictionary: "If someone or something is invulnerable, they cannot be harmed or damaged."

Base Thor is clearly not invulnerable.

In Avengers: Infinity War, Thanos beat him unconscious? In Thor: Ragnarok, Hela stabs his eye out, leaving him blind in one eye. This shows that Thor is not invulnerable. In fact, in both scenarios, he could've died. He survived Hela's attacks because Surtur intervened and killed Hela. He survived Thanos's might because Thanos already got what he wanted. He had no reason kill Thor. Both Hela and Thanos are way under Darkseid's level,. Thanos with his Infinity Gauntlet is at best, a universal being. Darkseid's avatar form, which he used to fight Hellbat, is a multiversal entity, who as I said in the previous argument, couldn't inflict any damage onto Hellbat. It should be crystal-clear that Thor is neither invulnerable, nor does he have anything near Hellbat's level of durability.

Here is the scene where Hela stabs Thor in the eye: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV1tBZ-HnvA

Next, let's talk about how Hellbat drains its user's metabolism. You are correct about that fact. However, you fail to understand that the time that Batman nearly died after using the suit, he had traveled to Apokalips, a planet outside of the DC Multiverse, and wrecked Darkseid in his own planet.

How far do you think Batman would be drained in a fight with Thor?

If this is a single round fight between the Thor and Hellbat, Thor would die before he even realizes that he was hit. However, Thor would come back to life eventually. This is where the people's interpretation of winning can differ. Because, after a few round, Batman would be weakened to the extent that if he uses Hellbat again, he would die.

At this point, Hellbat could put on The FInal Batsuit, which gives him so much power that he would only be surpassed by the DC characters: Sphere of Gods, Perpetua, the Monitors, Cosmic Armour Superman, Doctor Manhattan, and The Batman Who Laughs.

With this much power, Hellbat would be immortal while inside The FInal Batsuit. It can also use enough magic to kill of Thor for good.

However, if Hellbat doesn't do this and dies, I will lose all respect for Batman and spend a whole week crying at the Plot Induced Stupidity that led to Batman's death.

Sir.Lancelot

02.05.2023 08:40PM

Con

Even still, Thor's durability is just too much for Hellbat to circumvent. Hellbat is designed to eliminate your average god or super-powered being. But Thor is on the top of the food chain and considered one of the most powerful gods out there, coming in second place only to Odin.

Thor and Mjolnir facing the Hellbat is like you chasing down a housefly with a flyswatter. In terms of power, Darkseid is shown to be greater than Thor but when we refer to physical strength, they are equal. Both have the ability to lift over 100 tons, so they are within the same category.

Darkseid has the ability to break Hellbat's wings with minimal effort, so this should be a walk in the park for Thor.

Hellbat has the strength to punch heavyweights like Darkseid through walls at a great velocity. Injustice 2 - Hellbat Vs. Darkseid (VERY HARD) - YouTube
But Thor has the ability to launch an Ice Giant to the opposite side of the planet with just the swing of his hammer. Thor vs The Frost Giants - Battle of Jotunheim (Scene) - Thor (2011) Movie CLIP HD - YouTube

In the first Thor movie, Loki also stated that Thor has the ability to eliminate the entire Jotunheim with just his barehand. An entire planet of Ice Giants, considered one of the most significant threats to Asgardians all ended with only 1% of Thor's power.

The infamous Hulk slam left Loki dazed and winded but does absolutely nothing to faze Thor. Thor can regularly trade blows with the Incredible Hulk and still win. Hellbat's feats are not on this level.

And if Thor conjured up his wave of lightning bolts, then Hellbat would perish in the ongoing explosion.

Round 3

M.H.S

02.06.2023 04:31AM

Pro

I am not trying to insult you in any way, but from what I just read, I can tell that you clearly don't know enough about this topic. In your argument, you said:

Darkseid is shown to be greater than Thor but when we refer to physical strength, they are equal.

One cannot throw out such an outrageous claim without proper evidence. The evidence you provided:

Both have the ability to lift over 100 tons, so they are within the same category.

There are major flaws in this type of reasoning. It is not up to you to decide what a "category" is, because these characters are from different realities, Marvel, and DC, and because the creators never made such thing as "categories".

Now let's see these characters' actual strengths. Base Superman has shoulder pressed Earth, which is 5,970,000,000,000,000,000,000 metric tons, or 5.97 sextillion metric tons. This is roughly 6.58 sextillion US tons. So Superman can lift over 65.8 quadrillion times more than the 100 tons you were talking about with medium effort.

It is well established that Darkseid is much stronger than Superman, and this has been proven in countless occasions. Darkseid once even fought the Justice League, including both Wonder Woman and Superman. Guess who won and slaughtered half of the Justice League? It was Darkseid. Now, do you want me to believe that Thor is equal to Darkseid in strength? Because, I won't until you provide sufficient evidence for that.

You also think that Thor can break Hellbat's wings. Frankly, I don't know how strong the wings are, so you might be right. But how exactly do you think that Thor is going to get close to a faster than light entity, and break its wings without getting shredded?

Also, you are telling me that because Thor could fight Hulk and not get hurt that much, the same would happen with Hulk? If you read anything that I wrote above, you would know that Hellbat could literally vaporize Hulk with a single blow. A similar thing would probably happen to Thor. And why are you still talking about Thor's durability when I already provided to you two examples of Thor getting wrecked?

You also said that Thor can use lightning bolts to destroy Hellbat. In case you didn't realize yet, Hellbat will dodge that slow 270,000 mph lightning with more ease than an average human dodging a tortoise 10 feet away. But wait, I don't think the Hellbat would get destroyed by some stupid lightning.

The chances of Thor winning against Hellbat is probably less than 1/1,000,000. Literally.

Sir.Lancelot

02.06.2023 05:11AM

Con

Overview:

Established that Thor and Darkseid are of equal strength. Pro dismisses this.
Demonstrated Thor’s power level by showing his ability to vaporize half a planet.
Maintained that Thor is a superior being, even to your average god.
Showed Thor’s insane durability by his feats of shrugging off Hulk’s attacks.
Highlighted the critical weakness of the Hellbat suit, the wings and the starvation factor.

In conclusion, it would seem that Pro isn’t very familiar with comics or the characters in question. He sure got more than he bargained for here.

If we do a repeat debate, certain things will need to be established in order for there to be common ground.

There are major flaws in this type of reasoning. It is not up to you to decide what a "category" is, because these characters are from different realities, Marvel, and DC, and because the creators never made such thing as "categories".

Pro is actually wrong here.

Both Marvel and DC have character handbooks that categorize characters by their strength levels.

Both Darkseid and Thor fall in the ‘Class-100’ category.

“It is generally accepted that Darkseid is sufficiently strong to lift 100 tons with minimal effort.”

“Most classify Thor in the “Class-100” strength category, which means he can lift well over 100 tons without too much difficulty.”

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Strength_Class_100

You also think that Thor can break Hellbat's wings. Frankly, I don't know how strong the wings are, so you might be right. But how exactly do you think that Thor is going to get close to a faster than light entity, and break its wings without getting shredded?

While Hellbat has demonstrated the ability to move as fast as light at maximal speed, he rarely does this because of the toll it takes on his body.

And while his speed abilities are higher, Hellbat’s perception time is the same as an ordinary man. He won’t be able to anticipate or detect a high-speed attack from Thor.

Also, you are telling me that because Thor could fight Hulk and not get hurt that much, the same would happen with Hulk? If you read anything that I wrote above, you would know that Hellbat could literally vaporize Hulk with a single blow. A similar thing would probably happen to Thor. And why are you still talking about Thor's durability when I already provided to you two examples of Thor getting wrecked?

Hulk can’t be vaporized. Even if he could be, he would just re-materialize. The source of Hulk’s mass is infinite gamma energy from different dimensions.

Plus, if Thor is capable of manhandling The Destroyer with his power level, what chance does Hellbat stand?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TmLcJ6UO5_Y

And here’s a video of Thor getting stabbed by Loki and shrugging it off like a mosquito bite.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f7cjpeRuNQc (1:28)

You also said that Thor can use lightning bolts to destroy Hellbat. In case you didn't realize yet, Hellbat will dodge that slow 270,000 mph lightning with more ease than an average human dodging a tortoise 10 feet away. But wait, I don't think the Hellbat would get destroyed by some stupid lightning.

The chances of Thor winning against Hellbat is probably less than 1/1,000,000. Literally.

Because regardless of his speed, his perception time won’t let him react quickly enough.

And Thor’s lightning would spread amongst the entire planet which would force Hellbat to flee anyway.

Barney

02.22.2023 05:17AM

#13

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@AleutianTexan

You're fine. The voting standards are mainly to ensure people read the debates before voting, and aim to be fair.

Your vote included plenty of relevant information from the debate to inform your decision. So it holds up.

While my own vote is for the other side, the standards are not to enforce single mindedness, merely the goals of quality and fairness.

AleutianTexan

02.22.2023 04:44AM

#12

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@Barney

Hey, I saw my vote got reported. Did I do anything wrong?

Melcharaz

02.21.2023 11:23PM

#11

as to the 100 ton standard, heck, spiderman can lift more than that. if only briefly.
https://youtu.be/JC0CcRdRQ04

Melcharaz

02.21.2023 11:19PM

#10

final crisis and the reset has really thrown off the power scaling. i would have to relearn alot of stuff.

Melcharaz

02.21.2023 11:16PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

im sorry, i cant really enjoy a debate when i believe information is lacking. im too much of a perfectionist.
also i dont know much about hellbat. but i do know about darkseid, thor and the hulk.

its fun to debate power match ups though, informally.

Melcharaz

02.21.2023 11:13PM

another thing i wish to point out is. How angry is the hulk? the hulk at his most powerful ie worldbreaker hulk, is capable of destroying worlds in 1 hit.

most of the time hulk loses because he doesnt get that angry or other forces are at play to prevent such emotional escalation.

Sir.Lancelot

02.21.2023 11:12PM

-->

@Melcharaz

What did you think of the debate?
Hopefully, you found it interesting.

Melcharaz

02.21.2023 11:10PM

first off, we need to address something. the darkseid that is encountered is just an avatar of the true darkseid, who is a multiversal god. so hellbat defeating his avatar isnt saying much.
now thor, he is a god, but not on a multiversal level, the power rating of thor is on par with hulk without his hammer (at least before final crisis)

just on this information, let me ask a question. can hellbat defeat the hulk? if yes then possibly he might defeat thor. if no, then he has no chance.

https://youtu.be/fcJ8QmogoXY Darkseid
https://youtu.be/R57iDntD0x0 hulk vs thor

videos are researched by tyler from imaginary axis based on comics and commentary from comic writers, in other words, canon.

Barney

02.21.2023 07:41PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

Can't remember who did. Sadly, once we mark them as handled we can't look back at the reports.

Sir.Lancelot

02.21.2023 06:57PM

Bizarre.
I don’t even remember reporting that vote.

Barney

02.21.2023 06:52PM

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@M.H.S

@Sir.Lancelot

@AleutianTexan

**************************************************
>Reported Vote: AleutianTexan // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 1 to pro
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:

The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.

**************************************************

Barney

02.13.2023 02:59AM

Regarding the transitive property, it's neat that Steve Rogers is significantly stronger than the Hulk. I mean Thanos kicks Hulks ass using just raw strength and barely breaks a sweat. Thanos vs Steve was a real contest of strength. So by the power of the transitive property (or more like a bit of bad wring) Steve is at least twice as strong as The Hulk. Conversely, those guys Steve beat up in the elevator, definitely would have taken down big green and jolly.

Another matter is the Conservation of Ninjutsu. One ninja is a threat, but an army of them only has an equal skill to the one divided by the total number of ninjas.

AleutianTexan

02.09.2023 03:11AM

Sorry yall got two alerts, I accidentally sent the first vote as a tie.

Barney

02.13.2023 02:51AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

At the end of the day, I would leave arguments tied, and give sources to con.

The videos overpowered it. I have a sense that Thor is a real fighter (including that he loses an eye in a fight). The most sense I had of Hellbat, was a guess that he's basically The Destroyer suit which we saw Thor beat. Even the abilities list of each were challenged, leaving me with little idea on the power level comparison.

I will say that I reject the Injustice evidence. I don't know the lore for that game, but I know in it Robin and Grey Hulk trade punches making them of comparable strenth, and they're likewise each a match for The Flash at speed. And of course Batman without that suit is just as capable against Darkseid (kinda the nature of the game). Sadly, this was the best hyping of Hellbat in this debate.

Pro: When making an argument about how strong Hellbat is, you're doing too many leaps into the transitive property. You should argue something like Darkseid's face is made of the material of nutron stars (I'm guessing), and here's an image of Hellbat cutting his head in half. Whereas you kept going on about how amazing Superman is, as if that's supposed to tell me if Darkseid cuts himself shaving or not.

Con: A little more focus on the tactics you believe Thor would use would have gone a long way. You didn't even challenge pro when he claimed that Batman's opening move is to murder whomever he's fighting.

Lifeforce: This was a mistake for pro to correct, since it initially sounded like Batman would have to watch his diet, not that he could die. At the same time, con did not leverage this.

The Final Batsuit: So Bruce wears the Batsuit to become Batman, and Batman wears Hellbat, and Hellbat wears The Final Batsuit... what or who is The Final Batsuit? I honestly got Powe Ranger vibes from this; is it a Zorg? Does Bruce morph into the Bat Ranger? ... It's just too far outside the scope, without telling the audience anything.

Immortality: Con really should have pushed this after pro brought it up.

AleutianTexan

02.09.2023 03:11AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Good round, I vote Pro, here's why:

1. On strength, I buy that even if they are both in the same "category", I know that Darkseid, which can equally trade blows with Hellbat, can handle at least 5.97 sextillion metric tons and Thor can do 100 tons. He has also defeated Hulk, the ice giants, and Destroyer, but none of this is contextualized. All these characters could only life 5 lbs for all I know, especially for the last two. At the very least, I have no warrant that they compare to 5.97 sextillion metric tons.

2. On durability, I buy that the wings can be destroyed on the Hellbat suit and that Thor can easily be damaged my much weaker beings than Darkseid. I don't weigh the Loki example because it's in the last speech when it could have been in the second to last after the Hela and Thanos examples were given, but even if I did, I have no numerical strength to weigh this against 5.97 sextillion metric tons. I also buy that the source this originally came from is flawed, and therefore question the validity of anything Con says.

3. On speed, I buy Hellbat is 2400x faster. This was brought up in the first speech, so I'm not gonna evaluate something about the speed of perception since Pro didn't get a chance to answer it. You also didn't answer the AI warrant, so doing Pro a little work since Con didn't do the work earlier in the debate, It's probably already answered.

4. On the metabolism argument, I buy that Hellbat could at least defeat Thor once in time since he was able to go to Apokalips and defeat Darkseid.

In conclusion, Hellbat is stronger, faster, and more durable. Easy win.

Notes for Pro
1. The metabolism argument was mishandled in two ways.
A. Don't admit that Thor can resurrect and then outlast Hellbat. This literally is saying there is a possible out for Con to win the round semantically. Define fight as a single defeat definitively.
B. The final bat suit is probably not Hellbat and would be unfair, though this didn't come up.

Notes for Con
1. You are not answering warrants. For example, on strength, you don't answer 5.97 sextillion metric tons. You let Pro control the debate when they control the facts.
2. PRO GAVE YOU AN OUT!!! Pro said that Thor could outlast if it counts his resurrections! Why didn't your next speech talk about that specifically, instead of extending the generic outlast argument that was answered by the Darkseid fight?

Good round, if you have questions or comments, feel free to question, comment, or message me!