Cannabis is not risk free, and isn’t especially medical applicable.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 2 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
I am a fan of cannabis, I am a fan of all drugs. I think all of them should be legalized. However I’ve noticed an issue in the cannabis crowd. They refuse to believe the facts surrounding the risks of cannabis use, and this making legalization harder. They beat the drums of safety and medical application, but there doesn’t seem to be much evidence that it especially useful outside a few niche situations. All drugs are like that.
Opioids are far more effective for cancer pains, cocaine is far more useful as a topical pain killer. However each drug has their own lists of medical applicability and one isn’t necessarily better than the other. Cannabis can’t treat ADHD near as well as amphetamines, it can’t treat depression as well as ketamine and psychedelics. It can’t treat obesity at all. It can’t treat narcolepsy at all. It can’t treat many things that other drugs can.
Medical potential should not be the focus of legalization of even an excuse to using cannabis. We shouldn’t need an excuse, we should be free to do any drug. However, lying and pushing straight up false hoods about cannabis makes that hope a much harder thing to conceive. It should be about freedom, not about safety or medical potential.
My point behind this debate is not bismirch cannabis or cannabis users, but rather to strengthen the argument of legalization by being honest and educating people.
- Treatment of Severe Seizures
“Sativex can be a useful and safe option for patients with MS with moderate to severe spasticity resistant to common antispastic drugs.” [5]
“Results from randomized, controlled trials have reported a reduction in the severity of symptoms associated with spasticity, leading to a better ability to perform daily activities and an improved perception of patients and their carers regarding functional status. These are highly encouraging findings that provide some much needed optimism for the treatment of this disabling and often painful symptom of MS.” [6]
“Numerous lines of evidence suggest that spasticity due to its complexity is not adequately managed with conventional anti-spastic therapies. Therefore, in order to improve the outcomes for the majority of MS patients, alternative approaches are needed to be discovered. Over the last years, the use of cannabinoid compounds as a potential treatment for MS-related symptoms has aroused great interest, owing to encouraging preclinical and clinical studies.” [7]
- Cannabis is an effective and specific treatment for MS spasticity
- Moreover, it works as well, if not better, than traditional treatment
- Clarified the resolution and defined key terms
- Noted the winning conditions for each side
- Fulfilled my burden of proof, by demonstrating:
- Cannabis is an effective seizure medication
- Cannabis is an effective spasticity medication
- Proved this using reliable sources
- Refuted my opponent’s first claim, by deeming it irrelevant and insufficient
- Refuted my opponent’s second claim, by showing it to be a strawman
- Overall fulfilled my burden of proof while showing my opponent has not met his
- Cannabis is effective for several medical applications
- Cannabis is, on balance, safe and beneficial when used properly
- Whether this debate applies to medical cannabis, recreational cannabis, or both
- What the second part of the resolution means
- Medically applicable for a specific purpose
- More medically applicable than any other similar substance
- More fair and debatable
- More sensible
- More relevant to the resolution
- My opponent had the responsibility to define the resolution properly
- In the absence of this, any reasonable interpretation by me should be accepted
- Argue that the risks of medical cannabis are greater than the benefits
- Show why his interpretation (that he had the responsibility of setting) is more reasonable
- How do you interpret the resolution?
- If you interpret it differently than I do, what makes your interpretation more valid?
- Is the resolution unclear, and does it leave room for different readings?
- Do the side effects of recreational cannabis apply to medical cannabis?
- What evidence do you have to support your claim that “it is not any more medically applicable than any other psychoactive drug”?
- How and why should two different drugs, being used for completely different purposes, be compared?
- Do you concede that medical cannabis, when taken for diseases it’s designed to treat: is safe, effective, and relatively risk-free?
- Why should voters vote for you when you conceded all my crucial R1 constructives?
- Summarized the debate and used a clear structure (unlike my opponent)
- Affirmed why my interpretation is more valid, debatable, and fair
- Showed why my opponent had the burden of defining the resolution, and failed to do so
- Extended my R1 contentions
- Rebutted my opponent’s arguments as strawmanning, irrelevant, or holding an impossible BoP
- Cross-examined my opponent with crucial questions regarding his arguments
- Create an extremely ambiguous, poorly defined resolution with no clear scope
- Admit to this, but claim it’s irrelevant
- Ignore opponent’s interpretation of the resolution, as well as cross-examination
- Fail to object to the interpretation of the resolution
- Thereby implicitly conceding it (in formal debate, what is dropped is conceded)
- Gish gallop arguments that support an already conceded resolution
- PROFIT???
- Note the ambiguous resolution
- Propose a clear and debatable interpretation as a working resolution (semantic Kritik)
- Offer the opponent a chance to object to it
- Which he fails to do
- Support my interpretation of the resolution
- With well-sourced, undeniable facts that my opponent even concedes
- Extend my arguments while my opponent continues to dedicate 90% of his arguments to random irrelevant biochemist stuff
“My opponent has made something very clear to me. That is he doesn’t have any actual rebuttals to my claims. His only argument is that my title for the debate was confusing which I have already conceded.”
“If the standard for the debate was "made the most good points without refutation" then CON would have won this debate pretty easily but it is not. PRO very wisely demonstrates that laying out definitions, burdens for proof, and wincons for a semantically focused argument can and should beat even a persuasive but undefined argument. CON should in future use that DESCRIPTION to lock in definitions, parameters, and burdens before the opponent takes that advantage away from the instigator.”
“My opponent claims I strawman his arguments as he continues to do it to mine. For example, he claims I must prove that the risks outweigh the benefits, even though I have never even begun to claim that. Not in the description, not in the title, not anywhere in any of my arguments. That is his cheap way of trying to pin something on me that I don’t even believe or have even tried to argue.”
R1: “Second of all, the potential risks of cannabis, valid as they are, do not outweigh the potential benefits."
R2: “My evidence is rock-solid, so as far as I see it, my opponent has two choices: argue that the risks of medical cannabis are greater than the benefits [or] show why his interpretation (that he had the responsibility of setting) is more reasonable.”
“What I have tried to argue, and I have successfully argued, so much so that my opponent agreed with me in his first reply to my original argument, is that cannabis has risks.”
“The other part of my argument that he seems to have trouble grasping is that cannabis is not a special drug. It has some unique aspects to its pharmacology, but every drug does.”
“It is not a special drug in terms of its medical applicability which I don’t even feel is an arguable topic.”
[Paragraph extolling the virtues of ketamine][Paragraph extolling the virtues of ibogaine][Paragraph extolling the virtues of heroine]
“I believe I currently have proven my points and my opposition has done absolutely nothing to counter the main two points of this argument. 1: Cannabis carries risks. He has already admitted it does. So that is a check. Just because the benefits in some cases (certainly not all) outweigh the risks, doesn’t mean the risks don’t exist. 2: Cannabis is nothing special in terms of its general medical applicability. I have proven this by taking three random drugs and listing a small amount of their medical benefits. It is just another drug.
“I do admit my title was confusing, however that does not mean my opponent gets to make up what I was stating in the first place as he has repeatedly done.
- Dropped. Extend.
- Dropped. Extend.
- Extra dropped. Extend.
- Conceded. Extend.
- Demonstrated how my strategy is far more effective than my opponent’s aimless wanderings
- Rebutted my opponent’s contentions and responses as ignoratio elenchi
- Extended my arguments that PRO has entirely dropped/ignored
With all due respect – when reading through the debate, this is my impression of my opponent’s strategy:
- Create an extremely ambiguous, poorly defined resolution with no clear scope
- Admit to this, but claim it’s irrelevant
- Ignore opponent’s interpretation of the resolution, as well as cross-examination
- Fail to object to the interpretation of the resolution
- Thereby implicitly conceding it (in formal debate, what is dropped is conceded)
- Gish gallop arguments that support an already conceded resolution
- PROFIT???
This is my strategy:
- Note the ambiguous resolution
- Propose a clear and debatable interpretation as a working resolution (semantic Kritik)
- Offer the opponent a chance to object to it
- Which he fails to do
- Support my interpretation of the resolution
- With well-sourced, undeniable facts that my opponent even concedes
- Extend my arguments while my opponent continues to dedicate 90% of his arguments to random irrelevant biochemist stuff
“Kritiks are philosophically-based arguments which question fundamental assumptions underlying the arguments, positions, or presentation of one side in the debate.” [1]
“At least three of five conditions should exist before either side introduces a kritik.” [1]
- There should be an important flaw in the topic or the opposing team's position.
- The judge should be receptive.
The team introducing the kritik should have both the knowledge and research base to launch the attack.- The attack should fit a kritik issue format noticeably better than a more traditional voting issue format.
- The attack should be understandable both in intent and structure.
“And I’d like to apologize for being unclear as to what we are actually debating.”
“It is not a special drug in terms of its medical applicability which I don’t even feel is an arguable topic.”
“The kritik is generally presented as an absolute argument. It demands a yes-or-no response from the judge, rather than an impact which is weighed against other arguments.”“Kritiks are a priori (Latin: "from the beginning") voting issues. Since they represent fundamental considerations on which presentations are built, they demand to be evaluated before substantive issues such as inherency, topicality, or disadvantages are considered. If the bedrock of those arguments is faulty, as the kritik suggests, then we can discard the arguments without looking at them in detail.” [3]
“Another round where my opponent chose to argue my choice of words and prose instead of actually combatting what I am saying. Not only does this show that he doesn’t know enough about this topic to have a true discussion. It also shows a lack of confidence in the evidence he thinks he has. He used the true/false false/false idea and claimed one of my points is false. Yet he has provided no evidence nor rebuttals to my claims. I’m not even sure he understands what my claims are. That was forgiven in the first round as I conceded my title was confusing. However, I have clearly explained what the debate is and what needs to be covered. He has yet to provide any evidence or arguments that counters my claims. He can only counter my formatting and choice of words. That type of thing simply isn’t meaningful in a scientific debate.”
“My opponent is good at debating when score cards count. However if he was tasked with convincing a room full of people that his point is correct over mine, he would fail. Because from what I can tell he is not very educated in this topic.”
“He says I ramble, that may be true compared to the finely laid out bullet points he presents. Is there an ounce of substance to any of his arguments? No. He is simply better at formatting and word play. I am better at presenting the evidence that is relevant to this topic.”
“However, anyone reading this knows that is an enormous jump. It’s like when someone who loves sushi says it is “especially” good compared to other foods. Then someone says “it isn’t especially good” doesn’t mean it isn’t good at all, it’s just nothing special. I didn’t think that would be hard to understand based off of a missing ly and the end of the word.”
- Sets up an ambiguous resolution
- Doesn’t define a single term
- Uses a persuasive stipulation to justify a truism
- Says my definition is invalid because he created the debate
- Then expects a non-native English speaker like me to understand a grammatically incorrect clause with several reasonable interpretations
“All he has to offer at this point is semantics. 0 evidence to refute my claims, 0 evidence to support his. So I will ask him a very simple question if he can answer it with sound evidence and logic I will applaud him. What makes cannabis especially useful medically compared to Ketamine, Ibogaine, or any other drug? Not in the context of “it can treat this which ibogaine can’t” but in the context of general medical applicability. What makes cannabis especially useful compared to other drugs?”
- Explained my Kritik
- Shown the validity of my Kritik
- Shown the justification of my Kritik
- Shown the impact of my Kritik
- Demonstrated why, if valid, my Kritik outweighs all his arguments
- Rebutted my opponent’s only offensive claim, that semantic arguments are somehow less valid than evidence-based arguments
“All of that was well written. If this is to be scored like a formal debate based off of structuring and style, he will likely win. However, if this debate is based off of evidence, which it should be, I should win.”
“I conceded my title was poorly worded, however like I said last time he made a huge jump from what I was saying, and began arguing against it. He knew what the debate was supposed to be about two rounds ago, and had done nothing but complain about my wording since. He has provided no evidence for anything, he admitted the first half was correct, he just keeps harping on the confusion of the title that he knew the answer to in the second round. Also if he would’ve actually read my first argument this confusion wouldn’t exist. No one ever said anything about it never being applicable to anything.”
“This type of stuff should not win debates, especially scientifically based debates: “My opponent appears to be under the false impression that semantic arguments are less valid than evidence-based arguments.” in science evidence is the only thing that truly matters. That’s what this debate is, the science of drugs in the body. Semantics have no purpose or use here. They don’t prove or disprove anything, they “undermine” supposedly, but semantics doesn't undermine evidence, positive evidence that disproves my evidence would undermine it.”
“At the end of the day my opponent is a good debater. However he is not well versed enough in this topic, in my opinion, to prove or disprove any of the statements I've made in this argument. For that simple fact I should win the debate as it should be scored off who has more evidence, is the evidence strong, and is it applicable. I have presented strong, applicable evidence for my claims. He hasn’t provided anything but semantics and trying to “undermine” what I’m saying without actually presenting any evidence. It’s hard to undermine evidence unless you know more about the topic than my opponent does.”
“Kritiks are a priori (Latin: "from the beginning") voting issues. Since they represent fundamental considerations on which presentations are built, they demand to be evaluated before substantive issues such as inherency, topicality, or disadvantages are considered. If the bedrock of those arguments is faulty, as the kritik suggests, then we can discard the arguments without looking at them in detail.” (Round 4)
“This isn't a debate to be scored for debating styles, it's a scientific debate. Evidence is what should take the prize. “
“I have presented evidence cannabis is risky, he agreed.”
“I have presented evidence that cannabis is nothing special compared to other drugs. Meaning it is not especially medically applicable. It is just another drug. Having evidence to support my claim should win the debate, him playing the semantics game in an evidence based debate should not win him anything. I respect his ability to debate well, but he doesn’t know anything about this topic or we’d be seeing it.”
“My title was confusing, if he would’ve read my first argument he’d know what it was about before he ever typed a word. He didn’t read to comprehend he read only to find words to pick apart and change the debate from what I clearly stated, at the end of my first post, to something he thought he could play. That should not win debates.”
- Dropped. Extend
- Dropped. Extend
Thank both of you guys. I wasn’t ever trying to sound like a know it all or anything, I just have a lot of confidence in my knowledge on this particular topic.
I’ll try and start another debate on a topic similar soon and I hope y’all are there to see it.
Do it again. You learned enough about formulating the resolution here to make it really hard to beat you as well as to make sure it stays on the topic you prefer.
For the record, I think you have a great knowledge base in these topics - just remember that the resolution is half of the debate.
Thanks for the vote, wasn’t trying to sound like a doctor or pharmacist. I have just dedicated many years of my life to studying pharmacology. I think my title being unclear messed up my argument pretty badly.
I'll take a look at it tonight.
Thank you.
Mind if I get a vote on the Nicolino Locche vs Floyd Mayweather debate?
I don’t expect you to vote immediately but when you have enough time, I’d appreciate it!
Thanks for the vote. If you ever need a fair vote for a debate, don't hesitate to tag me.
Looking forward to your vote.
Will vote on this after dinner.
Thx! Don't feel any pressure to do it if you're short on time.
I'll try when I get home from vacation if I don't have too much work for uni.
Still planning on voting?
Will vote on this soon
https://media.tenor.com/BL4Uxc4WFrsAAAAd/johnny-depp-johnny.gif
Sometimes you just gotta go to war man. Especially with people like RM
*Drops a friendly message asking for votes last night*
*Comes back to a warzone in the comments*
Yep, a normal day at DebateArt.
That’s a real mature way of handling this. Ignore my friendly messages, remove me from friends list, report votes for me, call said votes unfair, then block me because your claims don’t make any sense.
A- level debater right here folks.
You are irritating me with being like 20 out of the past 20something notifications I have had.
You are blocked for now, ty.
I’m not even mad about any of it at all. I just want you to stop acting like you’re a victim of unfair voting, when you’re just not well versed in this topic. It’s fine to not dedicate your life to studying pharmacology as I have. That’s no problem. It’s only a problem when you begin to act like an expert and blame everyone but yourself for not getting votes. If people come and vote for you, I will think they’re uneducated or don’t have deep insight on the topic, but I would never report the vote or complain about. That’s on you man.
Do you not find it strange I’ve had a very respectful debate with my opponent in this thread? We have messaged each other back and forth many times about the debate and about the approach to the debate.
But you ignore my friendly messages and evidence and expect people to side with you on a debate you know literally nothing about. So much so you couldn’t counter 1 single point I made the entire time. And kept bringing up points that let me know you’re entirely uneducated. Like “date rape drugs which are basically only used for kidnapping” you have 0 evidence for that. Date rape drugs aren’t a class of drugs. Are you talking about GHB? Which does the exact same thing to the brain as alcohol and Xanax? GHB, is used recreationally all the time and 99% of the users do not use it to rape other people. So that made no sense.
If you’re talking about drugs that can make you lose consciousness, then you’d have to call opioids, alcohol, Xanax, ketamine, PCP, etc all date rape drugs. Which you probably wouldn’t if you had half a brain. You just don’t know anything about this topic and then try to say to someone who has a formal education and years of research into the topic ignorant. It’s amazing how egotistical you are on a topic you clearly know nothing about.
I have no salt what so ever big guy. I showed you no I’ll will. As a matter of fact I sent you a friend request and friendly messages in between rounds trying to show you my evidence for my claims. You ignored them, and then removed me your friends list. That sounds much saltier than anything I’ve said to you at all. Also if you can’t see I’m just playing “mental warfare” which you claimed to be the master of, you’re not paying attention.
Also I’ve given you dozens of lines of evidence that drugs are not harmful 80-90% of the time. You just refuse to accept the data. You have brought forth 0 data to back up how harmful you claim drugs to be. That’s on you. You have done no real research on the topic of pharmacology and how drugs interact with societies at all. Your research starts and ends with simple google searches like “risks of heroin” and don’t dig any deeper. Again I gave you many sources to start doing true research on the topic, you ignored it and never presented any evidence that went against anything I was saying at all, again that’s on you.
It’s not my fault you can’t be objective in your approach on the topic of drugs. You also didn’t get “votebombed” someone actually read the debate and saw who had more evidence for their claims. That was a landslide in my direction.
The salt is primarily yours both while you were losing and even while winning. That is why you are talking about it everywhere and now assume I would grudge against you instead of the user that votebombed me in that debate.
I do not care about this discussion, I just find your understanding of revenge and feelings are rather low EQ. That translates into why you cannot comprehend how vile drugs are to communities and the emotional distress of it.
Rational madman is currently losing a debate against me and is very salty. I’d be very very surprised if he doesn’t give you every vote lol.
Care to drop a vote?
R3 SOURCES:
1: https://debate.uvm.edu/NFL/rostrumlib/cxkbennett0496.pdf
2: tiny.cc/Kritik
3: https://mbhsdebate.wixsite.com/debate/kritik
Extend all sources from previous rounds.
Addiction is a misnomer in my opinion. It also depends on what you mean by addiction. Ketamine can hardly be considered highly addictive. There’s evidence it can actually treat addiction. Also to be considered an addict and be diagnosed with substance use disorder, the use or activity must be disrupting your social life or professional life. If you’re saying they have higher dependence potential that would be true. However that isn’t the point of this debate. The point of this debate is to say that cannabis is nothing special, you can look at Mitragynine, which is an opioid, and it has the same addiction and dependence potential as cannabis because it is a partial agonist at the mu-opioid receptor as well as a few others. It has also been used to treat opioid addiction as well as other drugs that have similar pharmacological properties. There’s nothing especially addictive about the opioid system, there’s nothing especially non-addictive about the cannabinoid system. Drugs like AB-phubenica and K2 have shown that.
I like the recreational debate as well, I believe all drugs should be legal to use recreationally.
"It is also not more medically applicable than drugs like morphine, cocaine, heroin, ketamine, methamphetamine, etc. "
Those are some VERY strong drugs to be comparing it too, and those are highly addictive. I don't think anyone's arguing that cannabis is anywhere near the same ballpark, though to be fair, I've done little-to-no research on the supposed medical uses of cannabis.
I've always been more of a recreational use arguer anyways.
That's great to hear - I don't really spend a lot of time on soft sciences, since I plan to major in civil engineering someday. It's impressive you've managed to tackle such a thorny topic in your free time.
Anyway, ik my style of debating is a bit annoying - I do IRL debate, and focused on semantics and greater-impact arguments (the idea that I don't need to rebut your arguments if my argument's impact is overall greater). My knowledge of biochemistry is limited to basic biology and Wikipedia, so I needed to try a different route if I wanted to win this.
If you ever want to have a two-way discussion on legalization of cannabis (a topic I'm interested in), feel free to DM me - I'm pretty friendly outside of debate rounds.
It is a compliment you said that though. Thank you I spend hours of my life studying this stuff. I write as much as I read I’ve been working on a pharmacology and drug use guide of sorts for a couple years now.
I got over halfway done with a chemistry degree with a focus towards pharmacology, before my hatred for physics for scientists overcame me lol. Now I’m a geoscience major so I can still get good work. But I’m honestly mostly an autodidact on this topic. Just reads lots of pharmacology books and lots of neurochemsitry studies. There’s still a lot I don’t know and I wouldn’t consider myself a true expert, but I still plan on returning to become a pharmacologist once I get my Environmental career rolling.
Out of curiosity, did you major in biochemistry or a similar field? That's the sort of impression I get from reading your arguments.
No problem man, I have thick skin lmao. It’s partially my fault for not double checking what the title and stuff was before starting the debate. All good.
I apologize if my tone came off as a little bit condescending; it was simply annoying for me to accept a debate, only to realize that the topic you thought you were creating was different than the topic I thought I was accepting.
R1 SOURCES:
1: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-drug-comprised-active-ingredient-derived-marijuana-treat-rare-severe-forms
2: https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa1714631
3: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1611618
4: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7653733/
5: https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/87/9/944
6: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22509985/
7: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16553576/
8: https://dravetsyndromenews.com/dravet-syndrome-prognosis/
This should be classified as a hot debate
Omg Autin just accepted the challenge at the same time I tried to, Mps I would be down to do the same topic with you just send me a challenge