Instigator / Con

Gabidacostta

1485

rating

debates

0.0%

won

Topic

#3873

Sex, gender identity and pronouns

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

Mall

Tags

Society

Parameters

Publication date: 11.06.2022 08:57PM
Last updated date: 12.21.2022 07:12PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Pro

Mall

1389

rating

413

debates

44.55%

won

Description

I wonder: why, instead of identifying as a specific gender, don't we change what is the social construction of gender in society? Why can't a woman be competitive, loud, wear a suit, play rugby, be ambitious, tough, or anything else that in society we would more generally associate with men, without the real need to identify as a man? Why can't a man like to wear dresses, be sensitive, put make-up on, do their nails, without needing to identify as a woman? Why can't we rethink what a man and a woman are, without needing to identify with a gender we are not biologically? What if you are assigned at birth as female but have all sorts of tastes and behaviours that could be identified as male and female, but you don't need to change your gender identification to non-binary because of it?

If we were to reformulate the meaning of being a woman or a man in society, would we need to use other pronouns or could we continue to use the current ones without feeling that they do not represent us?

Why don't we talk about changing the social construct we have for each gender and allow both to do, wear, have, whatever they want, without really needing to have a gender identity different from sex?

I ask these questions from a position of respect where I want to listen and connect with different kinds of opinions, in no way do I aim to underestimate the LGBTQ+ community.

Round 1

Gabidacostta

11.09.2022 06:13PM

Con

Forfeited

Mall

11.11.2022 10:43AM

Pro

"I wonder: why, instead of identifying as a specific gender, don't we change what is the social construction of gender in society? "

No evidence to show what's wrong with the way things are. The significance to doing anything, changing anything is the difference made, the compensation brought forth.

"Why can't a woman be competitive, loud, wear a suit, play rugby, be ambitious, tough, or anything else that in society we would more generally associate with men, without the real need to identify as a man?"

This is a multi-layered question. Each one depends on the circumstance. A woman can't be competitive, loud, wear a suit and etc. if by choice. The rest has to do with the individual's ability. If it's within their ability, what they can or can't do, then it comes down to their desire.

A woman is not a man so to identify as one would be dishonest. Even if there's a special reason for the identification, you run into problems of confusion.

"Why can't a man like to wear dresses, be sensitive, put make-up on, do their nails, without needing to identify as a woman? "

I don't believe there are any such men that would do and be these things without requesting the female identity.

"Why can't we rethink what a man and a woman are, without needing to identify with a gender we are not biologically?"

It's because we eliminate confusion. Changing and mixing up the gender categories can get bewildering. It's suffice to just leave things as is categorizing effeminate men and masculine like women

"What if you are assigned at birth as female but have all sorts of tastes and behaviours that could be identified as male and female, but you don't need to change your gender identification to non-binary because of it?"

You are a female with masculine tendencies, that's all. Still female, still recognized as, still physically so by nature. That's nice and objective and if it's important for everyone to know like it's some sort of concern, you're a female with masculine traits in your persona.

"If we were to reformulate the meaning of being a woman or a man in society, would we need to use other pronouns or could we continue to use the current ones without feeling that they do not represent us?"

Proves my very point. We have to ask this to sort out an issue after, after further complicating. But my answer, I don't know. To try to sort these complexities and laws instead of living it more basic, challenges the civility going further from civilization.

"Why don't we talk about changing the social construct we have for each gender and allow both to do, wear, have, whatever they want, without really needing to have a gender identity different from sex?"

This part is really democratic and up to the individual person.

Round 2

Gabidacostta

11.13.2022 10:43AM

Con

Forfeited

Mall

11.15.2022 10:43AM

Pro

Forfeited

Round 3

Gabidacostta

11.17.2022 10:43AM

Con

Forfeited

Mall

11.17.2022 04:51PM

Pro

Golly, does anybody out there have an argument?

Two cents, viewpoint , anybody, there's a vacancy.

Round 4

Gabidacostta

11.19.2022 04:51PM

Con

Forfeited

Mall

11.19.2022 05:27PM

Pro

Nothing else to really add without the other side weighing in.

So when there is more time to put aside, we can continue on this topic .

Round 5

Gabidacostta

11.21.2022 05:27PM

Con

Forfeited

Mall

11.21.2022 07:12PM

Pro

#10

Thank you all for your time , present and absent.

Sa99550

11.26.2022 09:50PM

If you identify as they/them your essentially identifying as multiple people.This then means you should have to pay for multiple tickets in the cinema,when you go to watch a sports event etc

TWS1405

11.10.2022 12:38AM

"...why, instead of identifying as a specific gender, don't we change what is the social construction of gender in society? Why can't a woman be competitive, loud, wear a suit, play rugby, be ambitious, tough, or anything else that in society we would more generally associate with men, without the real need to identify as a man? "

Uh, women can be exactly as described. They have always been called "Tom Boys," but still remain categorically, women.

RationalMadman

11.07.2022 09:41AM

This description is why I support queers over trans.

K_Michael

11.07.2022 05:40AM

"I'd rather say my position is neutral and I am only looking to debate with a LGBTQ+ member that can share with me they perspective about this. "
The debate tab is for defending a specific claim. I recommend posting in the forum tab, as you can get multiple people's perspectives simultaneously and can focus more on an open discussion than "winning" the argument.

K_Michael

11.07.2022 05:32AM

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@Gabidacostta

^^ A single declarative statement, such as "gender identity independent of biological sex is a net negative for non-stereotypical gender expression" that can be clearly critiqued and defended is the ideal for a formatted debate (it doesn't need to be as complicated as my example). If you just want to argue/discuss your general stance on gender matters, the Forum page would be better suited to your wants.