Thx Oromagi,
Notes
- The New York Times Crossword will be abbreviated to NYTCP (as per CON)
- PRO accepts full BOP
Rebuttals:
CON: 1
Word games
test the extent of one's vocabulary, the range of words in a language available to a speaker's ready use. Word games often also increase the extent of one's vocabulary by referencing uncommon words and their meanings, as well as improving the correct spelling of that vocabulary.
By comparison,
one NYTCP solving app pulls from a list of 660,101 words that excludes proper nouns, phrases, abbreviations, foreign words, wordplay, etc.
Crossword Setters are notorious for disguising their words in complicated, difficult and hidden definitions. As I stated in R1:
Look! There is no clear objective on where to look! I can guarantee you, unless they're trained veterans in crosswords, people would not know that ALL you have to do is:
Simple Mentoring
SImple mentoring
Implement
Answer = Implement
The phrase Simple Mentoring could be associated with "assistance" or "teaching". The fact that the NYTCP has such difficult clues means that new players will easily become confused with definitions and not learn much at all.
As for "General" crosswords, I doubt that many of those words would actually be useful. While CON says:
- Initially, the game used all 13,000 possible five letter words in the English language, but [Josh Wardle] found that his partner Palak Shah had difficulty recognizing some of the less common words and made the guessing as haphazard as it was in Mastermind. He then used Shah as a simple filter to trim down the word list to around 2,000 words that were more recognizable - roughly five years of puzzles on a daily basis. After finishing the prototype around 2014, Wardle had lost interest and set the prototype aside.
However, the reason Wordle removed the majority of it's words was due to it's obscurity. As any self-respecting debater must know, using obscure words in speeches/talks is not a good way to achieve a social status, which is due to it's removal of those words.
If I may quote the description:
better = more desirable, satisfactory, or effective.
CON has raised a point on this:
BETTER is defined as "more desirable, satisfactory, or effective" but individual desire or personal satisfaction are impossible to measure in relation to the satisfaction and desire of others and therefore not falsifiable. 'Effective' is often a measurable standard depending on the objective so we should endeavor to define those objectives when claiming superior effectiveness.
However, I believe that the term "better" should not ignore the factor of satisfaction and desire. A good way of measuring how desirable your product is, is measuring how many people want to use your product. So, not only effectiveness should be measured, but desire and satisfaction too.
CON:2
Since Wordle takes an average of 3 word guesses (assuming pre-selected starter word) over 15 minutes and only the very best crossword puzzle experts can solve a Sunday NYTCP in 15 mins with 140 guesses, we can presume that the NYTCP requires more concentration for a longer period of time, resulting in a substantially improved training opportunity.
CON admits that only "the very best crossword puzzle experts" can solve it in 15min, which is time some people just don't have! Wordle is much faster, and so requires less time allowing the player to finish, share and leave in a matter of minutes.
CON:3
- As with the first two benefits, the NYTCP tests and strengthens memory capacity to a far more substantial degree than Wordle.
- For Wordle, you only have to recall from a list of 2000 five letter words while NYTCP pulls from a much larger set of possible answers, while also testing your memory on a host of subjects like geography, history, math, etc. The NYTCP also exercises your cumulative memory of prior puzzles because many short answers have a limited number of good clues that get repeated often.
I will drop the point, as it is hard to argue that it is not true. However, I would like to point out that this difficulty leads to a much less desirable puzzle, at least for the common people.
CON:4
Wordle is to NYTCP as Wheel of Fortune is to Jeopardy:
- Wheel of Fortune may earn the better ratings but Wheel of Fortune winners don't get National reputations. Wheel of Fortune winners don't get invited to the White House.
Jeopardy has reached
9.2 million views for the 2021-2022 season. So, approximately 9.2 million people are satisfied with the Jeopardy Series.
Wheel of Fortune reaches 8 million views NIGHTLY, meaning approximately 8 million people are satisfied every DAY
The desire and satisfaction of a game should be rooted in it's daily returners, meaning that people are happier with Wheel of Fortune than Jeopardy, making it better.
CON's own words relate the relationship between Wordle and NYTCP to Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy, so this relationship works in favor of me.
CON:5
- Yes, Wordle is simple and intuitive but why is that better?
- A simple program can be written that can solve half of 2000 potential answers in 3 guesses and 95% of all answers in the requisite 6 guesses.
- A NYTCP program can only remember and re-use answers from prior puzzles. New clues easily stump any programs.
The reason being simple and intuitive is a quality worth considering is because people like to have something simple and down to Earth. The NYTCP is a colossal puzzle that will take up hours of your time at best, so it's a good change of pace to have such a simple game, hence the popularity.
CON:6
Doesn't that make success at NYTCP a higher honor (and therefore BETTER)?
- Doesn't your argument suggest that more people are really testing their brains attempting NYTCP than Wordle?
The satisfaction and appeal of a few thousand, or the satisfaction and appeal of millions.
AGAIN, I have shown that better is not just the effectiveness.
CON:7
- I like free stuff but I very seldom like free stuff because it is objectively BETTER than the stuff you pay for. Free is an undeniable advantageous quality in a thing but that very state of pro gratis usually argues against BETTER, right?
- Is eating for free always BETTER than eating you pay for?
- Are the places where you can sleep for free always BETTER than a place you pay to sleep?
- Often, when a commodity is offered for free, that's a warning flag. Cui Bono?
This debate is whether Wordle matches up to the NYTCP, so it being free gives me an advantage in that area.
CON uses objective examples of free stuff being worse than paid stuff. However, if my arguments are correct, this notion is irrelevant to the debate.
CON:8
But popular in not necessarily BETTER:
- According to Wardle, the sudden attention he and his partner had gotten over the previous few months had made them uncomfortable, and also did not feel like spending the effort to fight against clones of Wordle that were appearing. Wardle said that "It felt really complicated to me, really unpleasant", and that being able to sell the rights to Wordle made it easy "to walk away from all of that."
- Popular was not BETTER for Wardle or OG fans:
- The Times stated the game would initially remain free to new and existing users
- Fans expressed worries that the acquisition meant the game would eventually be put behind a paywall.
But.... it wasn't, put behind a pay wall?
And also the quote from Wardle is from one person, in comparison to millions.
CON:9
That's not good. We want each generation to enjoy smarter, more complex games than prior generations- as proof of improving cognition, memory, concentration rather than preferring a game where most of the competition is between people who can guess it 3 vs people who can guess it 4. The challenges of succeeding on Earth are increasing we need a younger generation that's savvy enough to resolve more complex problems than their parents could, not making it so easy everyone wins and then merely claiming upbeat, savvy, BETTER. We need a Gen Z that likes the harder puzzles and calls that BETTER>
While I agree the next generation needs to be smarter, the Crossword is not necessarily the best form of doing that. The next generation should spend their time doing something they enjoy whether it be 3D-Based Puzzles or the new found world of adventure and wit that is RPG-Games.
Gen Z needs a different type of intelligence, a mix between old-school and new technology. We need Gen Z to be more social, and outgoing, more lively and looking towards the future. And as I hope I have shown, a crossword, is not the way to go.
oro, the floor is yours.
yep
That's all it takes?
Since it had no forfeits.
Since when was this a "quality debate?"
Thanks for voting!
You could tag us all in one but you are welcome.
Thanks for voting!
Thanks for voting!
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Thanks for voting!
Either you didn't read the arguments, or you don't know what it means. I had full BOP here, so if he proved ONE point of mine to be incorrect, the BOP stays unfulfilled and CON wins anyway. I'll make sure to make more BOP balanced topics in the future.
I don't see why you would concede this, but nothing surprising I suppose. I don't think either argument was particularly good so it could have gone either way at this stage.
No words... +1 win for the GOAT
In the late 80's, Will Shortz used to author a weekly puzzle in syndication in many arts and entertainment weekly tabloids. My local weekly carried it for a few years and offered 2 free tickets to the Ogden Theatre to the first five correct answers. I discovered that if I painted the envelope containing the puzzle answer with elaborate depictions of fishtanks, toucans, planetary systems, etc that I always won- even when I was not likely to have been one of the first five correct answers.
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........
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