Wordle is better than the New York Times Crossword
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 6 votes and with 15 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
--DEFINITIONS--
Wordle: a web-based word game created and developed by Welsh software engineer Josh Wardle, and owned and published by The New York Times Company since 2022. (Wikipedia)
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Crossword: The New York Times crossword puzzle is a daily crossword puzzle published in The New York Times, online on the newspaper's website, syndicated to more than 300 other newspapers and journals, and on mobile apps. (Wikipedia)
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New York Times: The New York Times is an American daily newspaper based in New York City with a worldwide readership. (Wikipedia)
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Better: more desirable, satisfactory, or effective.
==Rules==
1. No trolling
2. No toxicity
3. No arguments in the comments
4. All definitions are to be accepted
5. No forfeiting
6. No Kritiks
7. No ad hominem
8. Breaking rules 1-7 should result in a conduct point deducted
Other than that, pretty simple to understand.
- Wordle is much simpler and intuitive
Similar brain-stimulating games are popular among all ages, but Wordle has outclasses many, a popularity is due, in part, to its easy gameplay, appeal to a wide audience, and the ease of sharing and comparing scores on social media.
Apply some simple mentoring (9)
Simple MentoringSImple mentoringImplementAnswer = Implement
- Free and Easy to Find
- Popularity
“This quarter, our Crossword product passed the 500,000 total subscription mark, which makes it, in its own right, the 5th largest digital subscription product from a U.S. news provider." [Source]
Created by Brooklyn software engineer Josh Wardle, the puzzle first launched in October 2021. Only 90 people were playing it as of November 1st, 2021. But in two months, Wordle had grown to 300,000 users. Today, it has millions of players.
- It appeals to a more upbeat and savvy generation
People who solve the crossword are typically people on their commute, in the car, in the train, just to fill in that empty time.
- Word games test the extent of one's vocabulary, the range of words in a language available to a speaker's ready use. Word games often also increase the extent of one's vocabulary by referencing uncommon words and their meanings, as well as improving the correct spelling of that vocabulary.
- Wordle can provide these benefits but to a substantially limited extent compared to most word games.
- Initially, the game used all 13,000 possible five letter words in the English language, but [Josh Wardle] found that his partner Palak Shah had difficulty recognizing some of the less common words and made the guessing as haphazard as it was in Mastermind. He then used Shah as a simple filter to trim down the word list to around 2,000 words that were more recognizable - roughly five years of puzzles on a daily basis. After finishing the prototype around 2014, Wardle had lost interest and set the prototype aside.
- That is, Wordle has been substantially dumbed down in terms of vocabulary.
- By comparison, one NYTCP solving app pulls from a list of 660,101 words that excludes proper nouns, phrases, abbreviations, foreign words, wordplay, etc.
- As a test of one's vocabulary or a means of improving vocabulary, the NYTCP pulls from a vocabulary that is at least 330 times the size of Wordle's.
- When sifting through our minds in hopes of finding a word that can be made with the given letters, we are actively concentrating on the task at hand.
- One word game app advises:
- "As such, word games can serve as a training ground to practice one’s concentration skills. The more they play, the more players are able to ignore external distractions and control any sense of restlessness."
- Since Wordle takes an average of 3 word guesses (assuming pre-selected starter word) over 15 minutes and only the very best crossword puzzle experts can solve a Sunday NYTCP in 15 mins with 140 guesses, we can presume that the NYTCP requires more concentration for a longer period of time, resulting in a substantially improved training opportunity.
- As with the first two benefits, the NYTCP tests and strengthens memory capacity to a far more substantial degree than Wordle.
- For Wordle, you only have to recall from a list of 2000 five letter words while NYTCP pulls from a much larger set of possible answers, while also testing your memory on a host of subjects like geography, history, math, etc. The NYTCP also exercises your cumulative memory of prior puzzles because many short answers have a limited number of good clues that get repeated often.
- The heightened scale and training time associated with NYTCP gives a similar advantage in cognition, as well as NYTCP's higher lever of difficulty.
- We have all heard the saying that your brain is just like any other muscle. The more you use it, the healthier it will be. A healthier brain helps you become better at carrying out various functions. For example, you can process information faster and remember things more easily. These functions are all part of your cognitive ability. Your cognitive ability essentially measures your brain’s ability to think abstractly, reason, learn and solve problems. Word games can help improve your cognitive ability, as they are exercising your brain.
- Just as training with heavier weights for longer intervals improves physical strength sooner, training with more complex puzzles for more time improves mental strength.
- Wordle is to NYTCP as Wheel of Fortune is to Jeopardy:
- Wheel of Fortune may earn the better ratings but Wheel of Fortune winners don't get National reputations. Wheel of Fortune winners don't get invited to the White House.
- Yes, Wordle is simple and intuitive but why is that better?
- A simple program can be written that can solve half of 2000 potential answers in 3 guesses and 95% of all answers in the requisite 6 guesses.
- A NYTCP program can only remember and re-use answers from prior puzzles. New clues easily stump any programs.
- Is a game necessarily better just because it is easy to win?
- A 10m dash is much easier to completer than a 100m dash but would anybody say that a 10m dash is therefore an objectively BETTER sport?
- Find-a-word is easier than sudoku, is find-a-word therefore BETTER?
Now, compare this simple game to the Crossword. I admit it has it's qualities, but I believe that the crossword is a much more difficult puzzle, and so, much more likely for people to quit midway.
- NYTCP editor WIll Shortz estimates that fewer than half of people who attempt any given NYTCP succeed.
- Doesn't that make success at NYTCP a higher honor (and therefore BETTER)?
- Doesn't your argument suggest that more people are really testing their brains attempting NYTCP than Wordle?
the rate of growth for it is so much slower.
- Redwoods grow slower than weeds. Are weeds therefore BETTER?
Wordle is a free....[NYTCP] requires a subscription to play.
- I like free stuff but I very seldom like free stuff because it is objectively BETTER than the stuff you pay for. Free is an undeniable advantageous quality in a thing but that very state of pro gratis usually argues against BETTER, right?
- Is eating for free always BETTER than eating you pay for?
- Are the places where you can sleep for free always BETTER than a place you pay to sleep?
- Often, when a commodity is offered for free, that's a warning flag. Cui Bono?
From this it is clear to see Wordle is much more widespread and popular than the Crossword
- But popular in not necessarily BETTER:
- According to Wardle, the sudden attention he and his partner had gotten over the previous few months had made them uncomfortable, and also did not feel like spending the effort to fight against clones of Wordle that were appearing. Wardle said that "It felt really complicated to me, really unpleasant", and that being able to sell the rights to Wordle made it easy "to walk away from all of that."
- Popular was not BETTER for Wardle or OG fans:
- The Times stated the game would initially remain free to new and existing users
- Fans expressed worries that the acquisition meant the game would eventually be put behind a paywall.
this game is clearly designed for a younger generation of puzzle solvers.
- Please show evidence proving that Gen Z is more "upbeat and savvy"
- We've established that Wordle is a significantly dumbed down revision from older generations of games- Wheel of Fortune, Mastermind.
- That's not good. We want each generation to enjoy smarter, more complex games than prior generations- as proof of improving cognition, memory, concentration rather than preferring a game where most of the competition is between people who can guess it 3 vs people who can guess it 4. The challenges of succeeding on Earth are increasing we need a younger generation that's savvy enough to resolve more complex problems than their parents could, not making it so easy everyone wins and then merely claiming upbeat, savvy, BETTER. We need a Gen Z that likes the harder puzzles and calls that BETTER>
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
- https://www.thealphaparent.com/8-benefits-of-playing-english-word-games/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wordle#Early_development
- https://www.xwordinfo.com/
- https://www.wordunscramble.io/articles/benefits-of-playing-word-games#:~:text=Increases%20vocabulary,and%20practical%20advantages%20to%20it.
- https://www.thealphaparent.com/8-benefits-of-playing-english-word-games/
- https://towardsdatascience.com/what-i-learned-from-playing-more-than-a-million-games-of-wordle-7b69a40dbfdb
- https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-teenage-gen-z-american-suicide-epidemic
- The New York Times Crossword will be abbreviated to NYTCP (as per CON)
- PRO accepts full BOP
Word games test the extent of one's vocabulary, the range of words in a language available to a speaker's ready use. Word games often also increase the extent of one's vocabulary by referencing uncommon words and their meanings, as well as improving the correct spelling of that vocabulary.By comparison, one NYTCP solving app pulls from a list of 660,101 words that excludes proper nouns, phrases, abbreviations, foreign words, wordplay, etc.
Simple MentoringSImple mentoringImplementAnswer = Implement
- Initially, the game used all 13,000 possible five letter words in the English language, but [Josh Wardle] found that his partner Palak Shah had difficulty recognizing some of the less common words and made the guessing as haphazard as it was in Mastermind. He then used Shah as a simple filter to trim down the word list to around 2,000 words that were more recognizable - roughly five years of puzzles on a daily basis. After finishing the prototype around 2014, Wardle had lost interest and set the prototype aside.
better = more desirable, satisfactory, or effective.
BETTER is defined as "more desirable, satisfactory, or effective" but individual desire or personal satisfaction are impossible to measure in relation to the satisfaction and desire of others and therefore not falsifiable. 'Effective' is often a measurable standard depending on the objective so we should endeavor to define those objectives when claiming superior effectiveness.
Since Wordle takes an average of 3 word guesses (assuming pre-selected starter word) over 15 minutes and only the very best crossword puzzle experts can solve a Sunday NYTCP in 15 mins with 140 guesses, we can presume that the NYTCP requires more concentration for a longer period of time, resulting in a substantially improved training opportunity.
- As with the first two benefits, the NYTCP tests and strengthens memory capacity to a far more substantial degree than Wordle.
- For Wordle, you only have to recall from a list of 2000 five letter words while NYTCP pulls from a much larger set of possible answers, while also testing your memory on a host of subjects like geography, history, math, etc. The NYTCP also exercises your cumulative memory of prior puzzles because many short answers have a limited number of good clues that get repeated often.
Wordle is to NYTCP as Wheel of Fortune is to Jeopardy:
- Wheel of Fortune may earn the better ratings but Wheel of Fortune winners don't get National reputations. Wheel of Fortune winners don't get invited to the White House.
- Yes, Wordle is simple and intuitive but why is that better?
- A simple program can be written that can solve half of 2000 potential answers in 3 guesses and 95% of all answers in the requisite 6 guesses.
- A NYTCP program can only remember and re-use answers from prior puzzles. New clues easily stump any programs.
Doesn't that make success at NYTCP a higher honor (and therefore BETTER)?
- Doesn't your argument suggest that more people are really testing their brains attempting NYTCP than Wordle?
- I like free stuff but I very seldom like free stuff because it is objectively BETTER than the stuff you pay for. Free is an undeniable advantageous quality in a thing but that very state of pro gratis usually argues against BETTER, right?
- Is eating for free always BETTER than eating you pay for?
- Are the places where you can sleep for free always BETTER than a place you pay to sleep?
- Often, when a commodity is offered for free, that's a warning flag. Cui Bono?
But popular in not necessarily BETTER:
- According to Wardle, the sudden attention he and his partner had gotten over the previous few months had made them uncomfortable, and also did not feel like spending the effort to fight against clones of Wordle that were appearing. Wardle said that "It felt really complicated to me, really unpleasant", and that being able to sell the rights to Wordle made it easy "to walk away from all of that."
- Popular was not BETTER for Wardle or OG fans:
- The Times stated the game would initially remain free to new and existing users
- Fans expressed worries that the acquisition meant the game would eventually be put behind a paywall.
That's not good. We want each generation to enjoy smarter, more complex games than prior generations- as proof of improving cognition, memory, concentration rather than preferring a game where most of the competition is between people who can guess it 3 vs people who can guess it 4. The challenges of succeeding on Earth are increasing we need a younger generation that's savvy enough to resolve more complex problems than their parents could, not making it so easy everyone wins and then merely claiming upbeat, savvy, BETTER. We need a Gen Z that likes the harder puzzles and calls that BETTER>
- PRO accepts full BOP
- agreed
Look! There is no clear objective on where to look!
- That's right, you have to try many different possible contexts until you discover one that works.
- The answer is written out in order within the clue
- The adjective "simple" is a hint to not overthink it
- The solver would be aided by knowing the number of letters in the word
- The solver would be increasingly aided as cross clues are solved, filling in more and more letters
- In fact, some might solve the clue by cross clues alone, never realizing the answer was right before them
unless they're trained veterans in crosswords
- NYTCP builds in training by increasing difficulty from Monday to Saturday
- The Times advises:
- Start With the Monday Puzzles
- The Monday New York Times Crosswords are the easiest, and the puzzles get harder as the week goes on. Solve as many of the Mondays as you can before pushing yourself to Tuesday puzzles. You can thank us later.
- A typical Monday clue will be very straightforward and drive you almost directly to the answer. Don’t believe us?....let’s take a look at the difference between a Monday clue and a late-week clue for a popular crossword entry.
- The Monday Clue: “Nabisco cookie,” “Cookie with creme filling” or “‘Twist, Lick, Dunk’ cookie”
- The Saturday Clue: “Snack since 1912,” “It has 12 flowers on each side” or “Sandwich often given a twist”
- The answer to all of these clues is the same: “OREO.” There is a big difference between a Monday puzzle clue and a Saturday puzzle one.
- If you’re just getting started, make your life easy and solve as many Monday puzzles as you can. Eventually, you’ll be ready for more of a challenge, and that’s when you move on to the Tuesday puzzles.
- One becomes a trained veteran by starting easy and increasing difficulty as skill improves.
- Chess is so complicated that a first time player almost never wins. Would you advise someone interested in chess to give up after losing a game and try Hungry Hippos or would you advise that practice and persistence will eventually pay off in improved chess skills?
- Nobody plays a video game like Mario Bros. or Zelda without getting stuck and stumped and dead a bunch of times. Would a video game that let's you kill the final boss with 15 minutes of effort necessarily be a preferable game or is the practice and persistence necessary to overcome a series of obstacles part of the fun of those games?
However, the reason Wordle removed the majority of it's words was due to it's obscurity.
- Precisely my point. One doesn't expand one's vocabulary by sticking to commonplace and familiar words.
As any self-respecting debater must know, using obscure words in speeches/talks is not a good way to achieve a social status, which is due to it's removal of those words.
- Since a self-respecting debater must be prepared to argue unpopular positions, I'd say social consideration is less important to the quality of argument then a precise and evocative vocabulary tailored to the audience's interests.
- Once, I deliberately employed the obscurity of a couple words as arguments themselves. In the hard fought debate, "The negating philosophy of "IF"", I offered ANTIDISESTABLISHMENTARIANISM and FLOCCINAUCINIHILIPILIFICATION as example of words that often prove less useful than the word IF.
Wordle is much faster, and so requires less time allowing the player to finish, share and leave in a matter of minutes.
- CON's argument is that longer times of concentration practiced results in increased capacity for effective concentration.
- CON concedes Wordle is shorter, but that's not an argument in favor of improved concentration.
- A tweet is more convenient that a book but a book will improve your concentration more effectively.
- Likewise, a longer more demanding word game like NYTCP is superior to Wordle.
I will drop the point, as it is hard to argue that it is not true. However, I would like to point out that this difficulty leads to a much less desirable puzzle, at least for the common people.
- Concession accepted.
Jeopardy has reached 9.2 million views for the 2021-2022 season. So, approximately 9.2 million people are satisfied with the Jeopardy Series. Wheel of Fortune reaches 8 million views NIGHTLY, meaning approximately 8 million people are satisfied every DAY. CON's own words relate the relationship between Wordle and NYTCP to Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy, so this relationship works in favor of me.
- Both statistics refer to estimated average daily viewership.
- The fact that Jeopardy! has recently surpassed Wheel of Fortune in ratings does not refute superior bragging rights.
- TV Guide lists Jeopardy! as the greatest game show because it " never insulted its audience's intelligence. "
people like to have something simple and down to Earth.... it's a good change of pace to have such a simple game, hence the popularity. The satisfaction and appeal of a few thousand, or the satisfaction and appeal of millions. "better" should not ignore the factor of satisfaction and desire. A good way of measuring how desirable your product is, is measuring how many people want to use your product.
- Increased complexity in a word game provides superior exercise of vocabulary, concentration, memory, and cognition.
- A game so simple that most people solve it in three or four guesses provides little in the way of exercise.
- Lifting 10lbs of weight is easier than lifting 50lbs and therefore more popular. But lifting 50lbs will keep you stronger longer.
CON uses objective examples of free stuff being worse than paid stuff. However, if my arguments are correct, this notion is irrelevant to the debate.
- Let's recall the NY Times describes Wordle as "initially" free. That is, Wordle is only temporarily free.
- Let's assume that the NY Times is not offering Wordle free out of generosity of spirit. More likely, Wordle is being used as a loss leader to hook and habituate a maximum number of players before shifting Wordle behind the $40/year NYT Games subscription service.
But.... it wasn't, put behind a pay wall? And also the quote from Wardle is from one person, in comparison to millions.
- CON can't predict the future any more than PRO but the assumption that Wordle will move behind a paywall in the near term is
- consistent with NY Times subscription practices.
- The NY TImes launched online free to all in 2007
- In 2011, a paywall was introduced but non-subscribers could enjoy 20 free articles per month,
- then 10 per month in 2012,
- then 5 per month in 2017
- supported by the opinion of industry experts
- Shutting down Wordle-adjacent projects suggests to many that The New York Times hopes to capitalize on its acquisition, possibly to the extent of installing a paywall
A good way of measuring how desirable your product is, is measuring how many people want to use your product. So, not only effectiveness should be measured, but desire and satisfaction too.
- NYTCP has been popular for 75 years. Wordle has had a popular first year but since Wordle is so basic a solver can do no better than repeat the same 2000 solutions every 5 years, that game is not likely to match NYTCP popular appeal over time.
- Wordle popularity peaked in late January and has been in steep decline since the NY Times buyout
- Google trends documents a 35% decline in searches for "Wordle" since the NY Times buyout
- Big Macs and Snickers bars are more popular then blueberries and spinach but that short term popularity does not mean that Big Macs and Snickers bars are therefore "better," especially in the longer term. In the long term, empty calories are a less sustainable diet: a consistent diet of Big Macs and Snickers gets less desirable and less satisfying pretty quickly but blueberries and spinach can be more sustainably satisfying over time.
- Practices that improve human health, like NYTCP, are more sustainable super simple pastimes like Wordle
While I agree the next generation needs to be smarter, the Crossword is not necessarily the best form of doing that.
- CON does not argue "best" exercise of vocabulary, concentration, memory, and cognition, just BETTER than Wordle because its challenging and requires some investment in time and effort.
Gen Z needs a different type of intelligence, a mix between old-school and new technology. We need Gen Z to be more social, and outgoing, more lively and looking towards the future. And as I hope I have shown, a crossword, is not the way to go.
- Quite the opposite. Wordle is a flash-in-the-pan super dumbed down re-hash of smarter games like Mastermind or Wheel of Fortune. Nothing about Wordle is going to help GenZ prepare for future challenges but a more sophisticated, enduring word game like NYTCP offers the brain a work out and so can sharpen the reasoning and intellect of that upcoming generation.
- CON drops "more upbeat and savvy" claims.
- https://www.nytimes.com/guides/crosswords/how-to-solve-a-crossword-puzzle
- https://www.debateart.com/debates/1800-the-negating-philosophy-of-if
- https://www.tvguide.com/news/greatest-game-shows-1066568/
- https://screenrant.com/wordle-free-new-york-times-paywall-price-changes/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times
- https://gamerant.com/wordle-archive-shut-down-new-york-times/
- https://gamerant.com/wordle-not-as-fun-good-anymore-new-york-times/
- https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=wordle&geo=US
yep
That's all it takes?
Since it had no forfeits.
Since when was this a "quality debate?"
Thanks for voting!
You could tag us all in one but you are welcome.
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Either you didn't read the arguments, or you don't know what it means. I had full BOP here, so if he proved ONE point of mine to be incorrect, the BOP stays unfulfilled and CON wins anyway. I'll make sure to make more BOP balanced topics in the future.
I don't see why you would concede this, but nothing surprising I suppose. I don't think either argument was particularly good so it could have gone either way at this stage.
No words... +1 win for the GOAT
In the late 80's, Will Shortz used to author a weekly puzzle in syndication in many arts and entertainment weekly tabloids. My local weekly carried it for a few years and offered 2 free tickets to the Ogden Theatre to the first five correct answers. I discovered that if I painted the envelope containing the puzzle answer with elaborate depictions of fishtanks, toucans, planetary systems, etc that I always won- even when I was not likely to have been one of the first five correct answers.
.
........
k