Instigator / Pro

seldiora

1417

rating

158

debates

32.59%

won

Topic

#2559

If the Christian God was Put on Trial, it would be Justified to Judge Him Guilty of Crimes

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 6 votes and with 30 points ahead, the winner is...

seldiora

Tags

Religion

Parameters

Publication date: 10.26.2020 07:15PM
Last updated date: 12.01.2020 07:10PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 5,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1702

rating

574

debates

67.86%

won

Description

Let's assume that the Christian God and all the stories written about him were true. I am saying, based on the events occurred, he can be judged guilty of our crimes we have set for humans. This is a fair trial set in the US with jury and judge. Also assume that the idea that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent are all up to question and debatable. We are only judging the events themselves, not the claims made about God's sinless nature.

I am saying it is justified to judge him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and attempt to punish (or set limits) according to law.

Round 1

seldiora

10.26.2020 08:38PM

Pro

1) Murder, manslaughter charges

vocativ notes, "There are 160 separate killing sprees in the Bible for which God is demonstrably to blame. That number includes every slaughter in the Old and New testaments, and also in Aprocrypha, the contested books which are included in the Roman Catholic Bible but disregarded from the Hebrew version. A total of 2,821,364 deaths are specifically enumerated in scripture as either directly orchestrated by God, or carried out with his assistance or approval. " He has also killed countless enemies of the Israelites without permission by law, and only approval of the people due to being their creator. "The mere act of complaining caused him to unleash snakes, fire, and a plague. When the Israelites complained about a lack of food in Numbers 21:6, God sent “fiery serpents” to kill them. When 250 of Korah’s followers complain that Moses was putting himself on a pedestal, God has Moses ask them to burn incense and then burns them all to death: “There came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.” (16:35) When 14,700 people complained about all of the people the Lord had killed for complaining, he sent a plague to kill them, too. “There is wrath gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” (14:46)"

2) Negligence

The law defines negligence as: "A failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances. The behavior usually consists of actions, but can also consist of omissions when there is some duty to act (e.g., a duty to help victims of one's previous conduct). " Throughout the bible, he has indeed saved many people, but he fails to display the same level of mercy in real life events. If Christian God truly existed, he would be guilty of negligence due to letting millions of people die in the world war's, of diseases, with suffering, despite having the power to stop them. A parent has the responsibility take care of their children, and as the Bible notes that God created humans, he is the ancestor of us all, and must be responsible for every one of our actions, especially with his displayed massive power over nature and ability to give people knowledge, with the Forbidden Fruit.

3) Giving Cruel and Unusual Punishment

Never have we punished people with torture for their crimes, much less for eternal. But it is apparent that God punishes mere inaction. The Bible has stated. in Hebrews 11:6 that says without faith it is impossible to please God. Various sites have discussed "divine justice" verses malicious people. But I find it hard to believe that any amount of suffering caused by a single lifetime will lead to equivalent of infinite punishment. These days our justice system is criticized heavily for focusing too much on revenge and punishment rather than reformation (as Europe has far fewer returning punishments). If anything, God should calmly talk to them and reason with his almighty knowledge to try to rehabilitate the criminals. Being burning for an eternity in order to become a believer in good and righteous seems contradictory, as you would fear God for his pain and power imposed on you, rather than genuinely reforming, seeing what you did wrong, and becoming a good person. Consider even corporal punishment, which is effective, but leads to mistreatment, and fails after the parents lose control of the child. The "divine justice" proposed in hell, torturing millions upon billions of people, is certainly beyond a reasonable doubt to prove that god is guilty of crimes against humanity.

RationalMadman

10.28.2020 08:38PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 2

seldiora

10.28.2020 09:24PM

Pro

4. Religious Slaughter

God had demanded that Abraham sacrifice his son for him. Then he changed his mind and sacrifices a lamb just to prove devotion. Official ruling on animal sacrifice says: "1. Does Ch. 828, F.S., which prohibits the unnecessary killing of animals, prohibit a religious group from sacrificing an animal in a religious ritual or practice?

2. Does the 1986 amendment to Ch. 828, F.S., which permits the enactment of any ordinance identical to Ch. 828, preempt and hence prohibit a municipality from enacting an ordinance making religious animal sacrifice unlawful, even if such ordinance does not conflict with Ch. 828?

SUMMARY

1. Unless and until the Legislature modifies the statutes, it is my opinion that Florida law, specifically s. 828.12, F.S., prohibits the sacrificial killing of animals other than for the primary purpose of food consumption.

2. Based on my response to Question One, it is my opinion that a municipality may adopt an ordinance prohibiting the religious sacrifice of animals within the city pursuant to s. 828.27, F.S. (1986 Supp.).

On June 9, 1987, the City Council for the City of Hialeah unanimously adopted an ordinance identical to the provisions of Ch. 828, F.S. The ordinance apparently was adopted because a Santeria church recently opened in the city. Santeria is a religious group which uses the sacrificial killing of animals during many of its religious rituals.[1] A question has arisen whether such animal sacrifices, if not carried out for the primary purpose of food consumption, are prohibited by Ch. 828 and thus by city ordinance.

Section 828.12, F.S., provides in pertinent part:

"Whoever . . . unnecessarily or cruelly . . . kills any animal, or causes the same to be done . . . is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both."

End of all Charges

Cross Examination

(as this is similar to a court case, I trust that Con binds himself to telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth)

How does con plead to the charges of murder and leading people to murder others?

How does con plead to being responsible for billions of people but choosing no actions to help people in poverty despite knowledge of such?

How does con plead to giving cruel and unusual punishment, eternal torture in hell undeserved, especially to atheists and perhaps criminals who have already been punished in their life time?

How does con plead to the animal sacrifice done by Abraham and encouraged by god?

Is it true that God turned Lot's wife into a salt pillar, denying her entire humanity?

RationalMadman

10.30.2020 09:24PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 3

seldiora

10.30.2020 10:24PM

Pro

Your honor, the witness’s lawyer has refused to answer to these charges. As a result, I demand you judge the defendant GUILTY. He has slaughtered countless men, done nothing for child support, tortured the dead, and asked for animal sacrifice. According to his very own personal ideals, God deserves to “go to hell”, for lack of better description. I believe there is thorough evidence to punish him even on our basic laws and ideas. This powerful entity needs to be talked to and reasoned with, as soon as possible.

Court adjourned! Vote pro.

RationalMadman

11.01.2020 07:10PM

Con

Pro plagiarised his entire argument lmfao. I don't care though. I am busy and tired and this debate would take effort maybe. Idk, basically god is good jo matter what, you're jot allowed to judge him and if your iury convicts him of his crimes, he'll smite you with fury... So... Yeah it comes down to semantics of 'justified' as well as a ton of Bible verses, it's boring for me, I am sorry.

SirAnonymous

11.01.2020 07:29PM

#11

-->

@RationalMadman

You're right. At least half of his R2 is taken verbatim from that link.

RationalMadman

11.01.2020 07:25PM

#10

Anyway I don't care. We must learn to lose in order to relish as we win.

RationalMadman

11.01.2020 07:22PM

-->

@SirAnonymous

http://www.myfloridalegal.com/ago.nsf/printview/2CF2A00641F0F180852565720056A3AA

RationalMadman

11.01.2020 07:19PM

-->

@SirAnonymous

I'll link you to each section what he plagiarised. Those two URLs are the first two.

SirAnonymous

11.01.2020 07:18PM

-->

@RationalMadman

Oops, you're right. I'd forgotten the exact definition of an FF.

RationalMadman

11.01.2020 07:16PM

-->

@SirAnonymous

https://www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all-the-people-god-kills-in-the-bible/index.html

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/negligence

RationalMadman

11.01.2020 07:15PM

-->

@SirAnonymous

It's not FF you can vote conduct though

RationalMadman

11.01.2020 07:15PM

-->

@Barney

@PoliceSheep

@Safalcon7

His entire argument is copy paste. He committed full on plagiarism.

Fruit_Inspector

10.31.2020 04:01PM

It is the height of human arrogance to ignore all the atrocities we have committed against one another, even in the last century, and then attempt to put God on trial for being unjust.

If God is real (and He is), and if the stories in the Bible are true (and they are), then it is He who is the Lawmaker, the Prosecutor, the Judge, and the Executioner. When humans decide to make their own laws, we get slavery and genocide. And why not? More evolved humans should eliminate less evolved ones to advance the species, right?

You would be wise to look at your own heart before you accuse God of wrongdoing and presume to act as judge over Him.

Safalcon7

10.31.2020 02:25PM

was this deliberate or just a waste of a good debate?

PoliceSheep

10.28.2020 09:00PM

-->

@seldiora

Really interesting argument

Barney

11.30.2020 12:35AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

FF of course.

Additionally, I checked a couple random sections for plagiarism, such as "Never have we punished people with torture for their crimes, much less for eternal. But it is apparent that God punishes mere inaction. The Bible has stated." and "Throughout the bible, he has indeed saved many people, but he fails to display the same level of mercy in real life events" which brought up no search results.

Heck, plagiarism is so frowned upon I glanced in the comment section as well for any analysis pointing to it, while I see links, I don't know what inside them I'm supposed to look at. There should be something specific that is plagiarized for such a strong alligation.

MisterChris

11.02.2020 02:57AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

FF. Too bad considering PRO's argument was quite beatable

Intelligence_06

11.02.2020 02:16AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con forfeited 2/3 rounds and then put the argument at a point where his opponent cannot properly respond. That is poor conduct. More than plagiarism, considering I see Pro using a rightful exercise of citing sources.

Con had no sources. Sources to Pro.

Safalcon7

11.01.2020 08:15PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Conduct points: Not distictively to Con as he forfeited two rounds; neither to Pro for his alleged plagiarism. Tie

Arguments & Sources: Regardless, Pro presented something that went unchallenged. To Pro.

SirAnonymous

11.01.2020 07:32PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con forfeited twice and Pro plagiarized half of his R2. I won't award conduct points to either side. Pro does make some arguments that, as best as I can tell, were not plagiarized. Con made no response to any arguments, so arguments to Pro.

Theweakeredge

11.01.2020 07:21PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Full Forfeit

Regardless of RMM's last-second objection, no arguments were provided to validly deconstruct Pro's reasoning.