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User_2006's avatar
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User_2006
1470
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Topic
#2060

Hot Dogs are not sandwiches

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
6
Better sources
2
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3

After 3 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

pense
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3
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Two days
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10,000
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One week
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pense's avatar
18
pense
1512
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1
debates
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Description

Hot dogs are signature American fast food dishes. We are not arguing about the hot dog with no bread.

Round 1
User_2006's avatar
User_2006
Pro
#1
Thanks for Pense to accept this debate and start a series of meaningful and ordered discussion.

My stand is that Hot dogs aren't sandwiches and the burden of proof rest on me. Pense's stand is that hot dogs are, indeed, sandwiches, and it is up to him to prove that hot dogs are sandwiches. 

Introduction I: The Definitions
As that I forgot to include the definition for sandwiches, here it is.

This definition is picked from the front page of Google Search. Consider it to be at least somewhat helpful.
an item of food consisting of two pieces of bread with meat, cheese, or other fillings between them, eaten as a light meal.[1]
Something that is similar to a sandwich based on the structure can also be referred to, as a sandwich. 
  • something that is constructed like or has the form of a sandwich.[2]
Introduction II: The Semantics

I will be avoiding these arguments that will support me.
  • Sandwich, UK, is a town in England. The food is named after this town. 
  • Roasting a pet dog(the act is discouraged whatsoever) does not make the product a sandwich
  • Hot Dogs are not the same as Sandwiches, based on spelling.
These arguments are substantial for an inevitable victory for me, but because they are in distinctive pragmatic senses, they are not a part of this debate and there is no need to refute them. I won't be using them and voters should not consider them as actual reasons. 

Point I: Hot Dogs does not have Two(2) pieces of bread
An Ice cream sandwich or even an Oreo count as a sandwich consider it has a structure in which it:
  • Can be eaten portably
  • Have a Top and a Bottom
  • Fillings inside
Hot dogs are not sandwiches. They are marketed with one single bread. All sandwiches have two pieces of bread and they aren't touching each other. They are parallel to each other and they are holding stuff in the middle. That is what a sandwich is. If you search up a sandwich on the internet, chances are that you see these pictures:

Scroll as far down as you would wish, and you would observe that all of them that contains an image of an object defined as a sandwich, has two(2) loaves of bread in an angle parallel or almost parallel to each other, with neither of them touching each other. Image sources 5 and 6 may have more than 2 pieces of bread in the image, but that is just more than one sandwiches made at a time, similar to having a pan of 12 sliders as opposed to one Big Mac. 

Hot Dogs, on the contrary, have "two" pieces of bread, when they are connected to each other and are marketed as one. They are also are not parallel to each other. If one connected piece of bread can compose a sandwich, then Pizzas, Quesadillas, as well as Omelettes, can all be sandwiches. 
Because of this, I, as Pro, conclude that a hot dog is not a sandwich. 


Point II: Hot Dogs are not marketed nor recognized as a sandwich
I ask my opponent: Suppose you have a wife, and you ask her, "Make me a sandwich!" Then she hands you a Hot Dog after 10 minutes. Were you expecting this? 
I ask my opponent: Suppose you have a date at a New York diner, and you tell the waitress, "Give me one sandwich, no matter the kind!" Then you receive a good ol' hot dog sitting on top of a white-as-ivory plate. Were you expecting that?

If you answered "No" to any of these questions, then congrats, you admit that Hot Dogs aren't sandwiches! If you recognize that Hot Dogs are not marketed as sandwiches as well as socially recognized as one, then hot dogs aren't sandwiches.

The term "Sandwich" is a human construct. Humans define it and humans use it. Any diner with any qualified waitress with any acceptable eyesight would not serve a Hot Dog upon an order of a sandwich of any kind. 

A survey suggested that the majority of people think Hot Dogs are not sandwiches.
34 percent, said "yes" to hot dog as sandwich, significantly below the hamburger (60 percent) and sloppy joe (62 percent), both of which pulled out a majority on the sandwich side.[9]
If humans itself admit that hot dogs are not sandwiches, they aren't, consider they are only human-used foodstuff and humans have the major privilege of defining it.

Another survey still only has the majority of people claiming that Hot Dogs are not sandwiches.[10] The link below(not in the description lol).

I rest my case for Round I. I think it is evident that Hot Dogs aren't sandwiches. I pass the talking feather to my opponent and wish him good luck writing the response and critique against me.

Sources:
[1]Google Search: Sandwich
[2]ibid

Voters, thank you for reading this detailed response, I really appreciate that.

pense's avatar
pense
Con
#2
Thanks to User_2006 for creating this debate. I hope we can settle this matter and have some fun :)

Evidence:

1 - Sandwich, Google's definition (top result), taken from Wikipedia [1]:

A sandwich is a food typically consisting of vegetables, sliced cheese or meat, placed on or between slices of bread, or more generally any dish wherein bread serves as a container or wrapper for another food type.

2 - Hot dog, Google's definition (top result), taken from Wikipedia [2]:

The hot dog (also spelled hotdog) is a grilled or steamed sausage sandwich where the sausage is served in the slit of a partially sliced bun.

3 - List of sandwiches in Wikipedia contains Hot dogs [3].

4 - Sandwich, Merriam Webster dictionary definition:

Two or more slices of bread or a split roll having a filling in between.

5 - Hot dog, Merriam Webster dictionary definition:

A frankfurter with a typically mild flavor that is heated and usually served in a long split roll.

6 - Hot dog is a sandwich according to an article of Merriam Webster dictionary [4].

7 - It follows from previous items that Google, Wikipedia and Merriam Webster dictionary say that Hot dogs are indeed sandwiches.

8 - Submarine sandwich is a sandwich:
  • Subway sells sandwiches.
  • Subway's core product is the submarine sandwich (or "sub") [5].
  • Submarine sandwich, also known as a sub, hoagie, hero, or grinder, is a type of sandwich consisting of a length of bread or roll split lengthwise and filled with a variety of meats, cheeses, vegetables, and condiments [6].
9 - It follows from item (8) that split rolls are allowed as sandwich container.

10 - A sandwich doesn't need to have (necessarily) two slices of breads. Look at this classic sandwich with 3 slices [7], it's my first result in Google images when searching for the word "sandwich".

11- Even the NHDSC (National Hot Dog and Sausage Council), with all its bias, implies that hot dogs are sandwiches [8]:
  • "Limiting the hot dog’s significance by saying it’s 'just a sandwich' category is like calling the Dalai Lama 'just a guy'."
  • "hot dog formerly known as a sandwich."
There is no doubt that still the Dalai Lama is a guy.

12 - "Hot dog is a sandwich" is just a neutral position [9].

13 -  New York tax policy says that hot dogs are sandwiches [10].


Conclusion:

Even though Hot dogs are Hot dogs, they can definitely be categorized as sandwiches.


Rebuttal:

Pro argues that an Oreo or everything that follows the rules: 1) can be eaten portably, 2) have a top and a botton, 3) fllings inside; can be considered a sandwich. It seems to me that given those conditions a Hot dog is a sandwich.

Pro argues that hot dogs does not have two pieces of bread and therefore can't be considered sandwiches. Pro says "All sandwiches have two pieces of bread and they aren't touching each other". That is false given my evidence, see item (10).

Pro later says that "Hot Dogs, on the contrary, have "two" pieces of bread" almost contradicting himself.

Pro argues that the pieces of bread should be almost parallel, but I find that position very hard to defend.

Pro argues that hot dogs are not recognized as sandwiches but even Pro evidence suggest the contrary: "in a survey 34 percent, said "yes" to hot dog as sandwich"
(they are recognized as sandwiches for more than 1/3). Also my evidence suggest the contrary.


References:














Round 2
User_2006's avatar
User_2006
Pro
#3
First, I have to get a shoutout to K_Michael, who corrected me saying that the food Sandwich is named after the Earl of Sandwich. Of course, I am not using the reason that a Hot Dog is not that British nobleman because otherwise, that will be cheating.

However, there is a twist to it:
  • The British Nobleman, Earl of Sandwich invented the Sandwich, formally named it, and made it go famous(Before this, nothing in the structure of a sandwich is called a sandwich)
  • The Earl of Sandwich intended the food to be made with two pieces of bread on the top and bottom, while the filling between.[1] 
    • Consequently, he would ask his servants to bring him slices of meat between two slices of bread, a habit well-known among his gambling friends.
  • The Hot Dog is not even remotely close to the structure of the intended Sandwich[See R1]. It has one piece of bread with a thin slit, with no resemblance to an actual, 100% defined sandwich(Such as the BLT)You may argue that the one piece of sandwich still holds the sausage inside, but if so, go call a pizza and a Pop-tart a sandwich, as well as Chinese Dumplings, because in all 3 of them the wheat flour portion holds the filling(Such as meat) together. 
  • Earl of Sandwich wouldn't call a Hot Dog nor an open sandwich a sandwich. Since the definition of Sandwich revolve around him because he initially defined it(That is an understatement. He INVENTED the concept, which the concept is something(preferably meat such as ham) between 2 edible materials(such as bread)), Neither open sandwiches nor hot dogs would be, orthodoxically, a sandwich,  
My opponent has stated that the Hot Dog is structured similar to a Subway Sandwich, and he asserts that makes a Hot dog a sandwich. However, no.

The Sub Sandwich is often made with 2 buns instead of 1.[2] Even then, the fact the Sub sandwich is split horizontally instead of vertically made that "One" piece act as both the top and bottom. It is eaten horizontally like most other sandwiches such as the BLT. That is different from the Hot Dog. 

This brings me to my next point.
Wait for it, wait for it...dadadada....dadadada....daaatatattatttada.....Hot Dogs aren't made in the intention to be recognized as sandwiches!

According to Wikipedia, which has roughly the same information as other sites, states:
Feuchtwanger's wife proposed the use of a bun in 1880: Feuchtwanger sold hot dogs on the streets of St. Louis, Missouri, and provided gloves to his customers so that they could handle the sausages without burning their hands.[3]
Hot Dogs are to be made with ONE bun, and that is its intended use. Sub sandwiches are, otherwise, a variation of 2-bread sandwiches in which it is long and can be made with one bun. Sub sandwiches, as the name suggests, is made to be a variation of a sandwich. 

Feuchtwanger's wife proposed the use of a bun in 1880: Feuchtwanger sold hot dogs on the streets of St. Louis, Missouri, and provided gloves to his customers so that they could handle the sausages without burning their hands.
Hot dogs with the bread are invented because the seller wants to people to eat it with something else, so it is like a plate or something alike. An edible plate. Then it evolved to be folded. Hot Dogs actually look like this when it was first modernized.[4] That is the intended way. Does this look anything like a sandwich to you? not for me. If you are telling me that this is a sandwich, you are as well admitting burritos are sandwiches. The sausage touches an arc at the bottom but it is nothing near being sandwiched by two pieces of bread. 

[5], Since the USDA is a rather orthodox organization and its concept is more organized than what the people made without the explicit admission of the organizations with the right to say what is something or not, I will be using the USDA definition. 

3. USDA: A SANDWICH IS MEAT BETWEEN TWO SLICES OF BREAD
If you want to know the definition of a certain dish, the officials at the U.S. Department of Agriculture are good people to ask. It’s their job to make sure that the nation’s supply of meat is correctly labeled. When it comes to sandwiches, the agency follows strict criteria. “A sandwich is a meat or poultry filling between two slices of bread, a bun, or a biscuit,” Mark Wheeler, who works in food and safety at the USDA, told NPR. His definition comes from the Food Standards and Labeling Policy Book used by the department (the USDA only covers the “labeling of meat, poultry, and egg products,” while the FDA handles everything else, which is why the USDA's definition excludes things like grilled cheese). Not included under their umbrella of foodstuff served between bread are burritos, wraps, and hot dogs.
The USDA says that a Burrito or a Taco is something like a sandwich, but not a sandwich definitely.[6]

I have proved why the Hot Dog isn't between two slices of bread, but merely on top of it.

This would negate the Hot Dog being officially a sandwich, consider it is one connected piece of bread, with the meat not between the "two" pieces of bread, but merely on top of them.

Refutations:
1-7
Check source [5].

8 - Submarine sandwich is a sandwich:
  • Subway sells sandwiches.
  • Subway's core product is the submarine sandwich (or "sub") [5].
  • Submarine sandwich, also known as a sub, hoagie, hero, or grinder, is a type of sandwich consisting of a length of bread or roll split lengthwise and filled with a variety of meats, cheeses, vegetables, and condiments [6].
9 - It follows from item (8) that split rolls are allowed as sandwich container.
Sub Sandwiches are mutated sandwiches almost to the point where it is NOT a sandwich, however, because it is structured similarly, I can pass it on. Hot dogs do not have the structure of a sandwich, and it is up to my opponent to prove why the Hot Dog is a Sub Sandwich or something alike.

10 - A sandwich doesn't need to have (necessarily) two slices of breads. Look at this classic sandwich with 3 slices [7], it's my first result in Google images when searching for the word "sandwich".
Still similar structures though, come back later when you have a complete sandwich with fillings not between the pieces of bread. 

11- Even the NHDSC (National Hot Dog and Sausage Council), with all its bias, implies that hot dogs are sandwiches [8]:
  • "Limiting the hot dog’s significance by saying it’s 'just a sandwich' category is like calling the Dalai Lama 'just a guy'."
  • "hot dog formerly known as a sandwich."
There is no doubt that still the Dalai Lama is a guy.
They are not really correct. Hot Dogs aren't to be sandwiches, nor their structure is similar to the official sandwich. Saying a Hot dog is a sandwich is like saying a motorbike is a car.

Also, I would like my opponent to answer this for the 2nd time. 
If I call the waiter to give me any sandwich, and then he gives you a hot dog, is this expected?

12 - "Hot dog is a sandwich" is just a neutral position [9].
I give my opponent two days of time to prove why a Pop-tart is a sandwich. it is one piece of "bread" whatsoever. 

13 -  New York tax policy says that hot dogs are sandwiches [10].
I am a bit skeptical about that one though. NY lists whatever served on bread as a sandwich, including tacos and burritos. However, your Wikipedia source listed that neither of those is sandwiches. 

Pro argues that an Oreo or everything that follows the rules: 1) can be eaten portably, 2) have a top and a botton, 3) fllings inside; can be considered a sandwich. It seems to me that given those conditions a Hot dog is a sandwich.
You? Look, a hot dog, according to source [4], there is only a left and right, if you can even call them separate. Also, I would ask my opponent what is a flling? That is not part of my definition.
An Ice cream sandwich or even an Oreo count as a sandwich consider it has a structure in which it:
  • Can be eaten portably
  • Have a Top and a Bottom
  • Fillings inside

Pro later says that "Hot Dogs, on the contrary, have "two" pieces of bread" almost contradicting himself.
It is one, not two. Either my opponent misread or that this reason holds no value at all. 

Pro argues that hot dogs are not recognized as sandwiches but even Pro evidence suggest the contrary: "in a survey 34 percent, said "yes" to hot dog as sandwich"
(they are recognized as sandwiches for more than 1/3). Also my evidence suggest the contrary.
Let me give my opponent an example. Joe Biden got 60% of votes, Trump got 40% of the votes. Thus Trump should be the president! Is it right? No. The official definition also states that a Hot Dog is not a sandwich. 

Conclusion:
1. An official sandwich is of 2 slices of bread with things between, preferably meat.
2. Earl of Sandwich invented the concept of a Sandwich, which is what is written above.
3. A Hot Dog is served ON TOP of a bun instead of between two.

Sources:
[6]ibid

Argument is Done.
I wish my opponent good luck debating the 2nd round. 


pense's avatar
pense
Con
#4
Thanks Pro for the time invested reading my arguments. I wish we could go for some hot dogs :).

Rebuttal:

1) Pro admitted that a Subway sandwich is structured similarly to a sandwich and therefore is a sandwich according to his stated definition:
- "Sub Sandwiches are mutated sandwiches almost to the point where it is NOT a sandwich, however, because it is structured similarly, I can pass it on."
- "Something that is similar to a sandwich based on the structure can also be referred to, as a sandwich."

2) Here is an official image of Subway's menu:


Notice the similarity of their structure with a hot dog structure:

3) By (1) and (2) we could say that a hot dog is a sandwich.

4) Hot dogs are sometimes eaten as sandwiches (and can easily be converted into what Pro consider as sandwich structure):


Look at the next picture:
It seems that Pro would say that the left hot dog is a sandwich but the right one is not, which is a weak opinion at least.

5) Pro asks:
"Also, I would like my opponent to answer this for the 2nd time. 
If I call the waiter to give me any sandwich, and then he gives you a hot dog, is this expected?"

Probably the waiter will ask "what kind of sandwich?". It won't be expected because there is a more specific name for hot dog, but I can't complain either.

6) Pro agrees with the USDA:

"Since the USDA is a rather orthodox organization and its concept is more organized than what the people made without the explicit admission of the organizations with the right to say what is something or not, I will be using the USDA definition."

The USDA says that hot dogs are sandwich-type product, from same source Pro shared https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501011/5-ways-define-sandwich-according-law:

"Another section of the book lists hot dogs and hamburgers as examples of sandwich-type products when laying out inspection policies for pre-packaged dinners."

Using the sandwich definition of Pro "something that is constructed like or has the form of a sandwich", we can also say in this way that hot dogs are sandwiches.

Conclusion:

Even though Hot dogs are Hot dogs, they can definitely be categorized as sandwiches.


Round 3
User_2006's avatar
User_2006
Pro
#5
I thank Pense for not forfeiting this round of the debate. The debate still goes on and I won't forfeit either. 

Rebuttals:
1) Pro admitted that a Subway sandwich is structured similarly to a sandwich and therefore is a sandwich according to his stated definition:
- "Sub Sandwiches are mutated sandwiches almost to the point where it is NOT a sandwich, however, because it is structured similarly, I can pass it on."
- "Something that is similar to a sandwich based on the structure can also be referred to, as a sandwich."
I think my opponent has the burden of proving a Hot Dog is categorized as a Subway Sandwich. There are reasons why Sub Sandwiches are sandwiches:
  • The name is the name.
  • It is a mutated sandwich that was originated from a two-side sandwich. Only that one of the bakers felt weird and tried to replace the two loaves of bread with one single piece of bread. 
  • Sub sandwiches are INTENDED to be made with 2 pieces of bread, both pragmatically[1][2] and semantically[3].
With the 3rd claim, I will reference the pictures of a sub sandwich, picked from Wikipedia. Link below.

[1] I have zero ideas about how this formation of the bread can form a sandwich when they are connected. In fact, they are barely connected whatsoever.
[2] The 2 pieces of bread are distinct. 
[3] Wikipedia page recites:

A submarine sandwich, also known as a sub, hoagie, hero, or grinder, is a type of sandwich consisting of a length of bread or roll split lengthwise and filled with a variety of meats, cheeses, vegetables, and condiments.
And what is the definition of Split[4]?

Definition of split
 (Entry 1 of 4)
transitive verb
1a: to divide lengthwise usually along a grain or seam or by layers
b: to affect as if by cleaving or forcing apart
It is self-explanatory that if the roll is split, it is cut in two. Because the bread in the Sub is split, it would mean that a sub is intended to be made with 2 pieces of bread, and that makes it a sandwich. 

I have also explained why the Hot Dog doesn't do that[5], and that wouldn't make it a sandwich. 

4) Hot dogs are sometimes eaten as sandwiches (and can easily be converted into what Pro consider as sandwich structure):


Look at the next picture:
It seems that Pro would say that the left hot dog is a sandwich but the right one is not, which is a weak opinion at least.
I reiterate my definition:
An Ice cream sandwich or even an Oreo count as a sandwich consider it has a structure in which it:
  • Can be eaten portably
  • Have a Top and a Bottom
  • Fillings inside
Hot dogs do not have a top or a bottom. It is ONE bread. Even if two sideways bread pieces with ham in between counts as a sandwich, it is still not it because said sandwich is 2 pieces of bread whereas hot dogs are one. Again, I give my opponent 2 days of time to give me evidence on why Hot Dogs are intended to be made with 2 pieces of bread because it is certainly not. 

No matter how the Hot Dog is eaten, it is ON TOP or IN of the bread instead of between because I would otherwise like to hear how something can be between one single object. There is no Top and Bottom because it is one single object. My opponent has also failed to refute the point where it is stated the Earl of Sandwich invented the sandwich, and he would most likely consider the concept of Hot Dogs being Sandwiches as blasphemy, or at least consider something else other than a sandwich. The concept of a sandwich is much more ambiguous than it is needed. It is like saying Motorbikes are cars because it has wheels and can carry people.

5) Pro asks:
"Also, I would like my opponent to answer this for the 2nd time. 
If I call the waiter to give me any sandwich, and then he gives you a hot dog, is this expected?"

Probably the waiter will ask "what kind of sandwich?". It won't be expected because there is a more specific name for hot dog, but I can't complain either.
Exactly. My opponent proved my point by saying that Hot Dogs are not publically recognized as sandwiches. 

) Pro agrees with the USDA:

"Since the USDA is a rather orthodox organization and its concept is more organized than what the people made without the explicit admission of the organizations with the right to say what is something or not, I will be using the USDA definition."

The USDA says that hot dogs are sandwich-type product, from same source Pro shared https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/501011/5-ways-define-sandwich-according-law:

"Another section of the book lists hot dogs and hamburgers as examples of sandwich-type products when laying out inspection policies for pre-packaged dinners."
In the same source, this is also quoted:
Not included under their umbrella of foodstuff served between bread are burritos, wraps, and hot dogs.
Hot Dogs are sandwich-like products instead of actual sandwiches. Semimetals are metal-like instead of being metal. 

I would also question Wikipedia's reliability for including hot dogs as sandwiches because it has included MANY different things that are not officially sandwiches[6][7].

I will conclude:
  1. Sub sandwiches are intended to be made with 2 pieces of bread, and hot dogs aren't subs. 
  2. Sandwiches still have only 1 piece of bread. 
  3. Hot dogs are not officially considered a sandwich. It is considered a sandwich-like thing but not fully a sandwich.
Sources:

Good luck on the final round!
pense's avatar
pense
Con
#6
I got CT syndrome, apologies if it's too concise.

1) Pro uses the word intended and officially through all previous round. which makes me think that he also believes at this point that hot dogs are sandwiches:

I will conclude:
  1. Sub sandwiches are intended to be made with 2 pieces of bread, and hot dogs aren't subs. 
  2. Sandwiches still have only 1 piece of bread. 
  3. Hot dogs are not officially considered a sandwich. It is considered a sandwich-like thing but not fully a sandwich.
He also agrees that hot dogs are sandwich-like, which coupled with his definition of sandwich:

Something that is similar to a sandwich based on the structure can also be referred to, as a sandwich.

means that hot dogs are sandwiches.

2) As I mentioned before, using definitions from Merriam Webster dictionary we get that hot dogs are sandwiches trivially, since they take into account split rolls with filling in between.

3) As I showed before, this picture proves how fragile is Pro argument of "top/bottom" and "one/two" bread:

Thanks to Pro and all voters!