1527
rating
8
debates
62.5%
won
Topic
#1997
5G is a ticking time bomb on health.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 6 votes and with 36 points ahead, the winner is...
MisterChris
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
1762
rating
45
debates
88.89%
won
Description
5G is the 5th generation mobile technology, not the five GHz spectrum used in some 802.11 standards.
Ticking time bomb: "That negative health repercussions of 5G are a very substantial risk."
Substantial: Real and tangible rather than imaginary.
BOP: Both parties. Pro must demonstrate there is a substantial risk. and Con must demonstrate there is not. Failure of both results in a tie.
Round 1
TERMINOLOGY
A MIMO antenna is an array. There is not one antenna, however a series of over 100 antennas in a CE, and thousands of antennas in a Base Station.
International Agency for research of cancer.https://www.iarc.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/pr208_E.pdf
In 2018 a study by the US National Toxicology Program, https://www.niehs.nih.gov/news/newsroom/releases/2018/november1/index.cfm shows that 2G and 3G EM can cause cancer in rats. While it might appear I am arguing against myself, I have to point out that this study focused on the maximum permitted levels of 3G, as a baseline, and then 4 times that amount as the upper end. Oh so the regulations are sound, one might say. This study shows two things.
- EM at current cm wavelength fields can cause negative biological responses.
- When you change the power, you have a significant impact on the risk. (pin here)
5G ISSUES
- Phone could have 128 antennas.
- Output of the phone is 2Watts max
- MIMO would focus that beam (away from the head for sure)
- SIDELOBES cause the problem. The spill radiation you get from the device exceeds a regular 3G or 4G phonecall. A 60-second call can equate to the same amount of calories energy as a glass of wine!!
- Various polarizations permits progradation even when not intended.
We will realize through demonstrable evidence that the congestion of 5G, and EM wavelength and power congestion never experienced in nature, will have negative biological consequences.
Thanks, CaptainSceptic! Nice introduction.
I will first give some points and then refute my opponent’s case.
- Contention: 5G Improves Health
- One of the biggest indicators of overall health in a nation is how affluent it is. The World Bank states that
“Poverty is a major cause of ill health and a barrier to accessing health care when needed. This relationship is financial: the poor cannot afford to purchase those things that are needed for good health, including sufficient quantities of quality food and health care. The relationship is also related to… lack of information on appropriate health-promoting practices or lack of voice needed to make social services work for them.”
However, this relationship between economic prosperity and health continues even within the most developed of nations. The Health Inequality Project published a study in 2016 detailing how income impacted life expectancy of people within the US. They found that the richest men outlived the poorest by 15 years, and the richest women outlived their counterparts by 10.
Looking more broadly, the Social Security Office of Policy found in 2007 that the upper half of the male income ladder outlived the lower half by 5.8 years.
New industries, entrepreneurship, jobs, higher incomes, and more all compile to lead to better health. This is a simple, statistical truth.
However, let’s confirm this using cancer rates as an example, since they are especially relevant.
Citing the WHO, “80% of children with cancer will survive in wealthy nations, while only about 20% will survive in low/middle income countries.” So, maybe while cancer rates are important, perhaps cancer survival rates we can more easily aim to improve.
The NIH reports that, in the US, cancer rates declined from 2001 to 2017. Consider that smartphone usage in the US went from 35% of adults in 2011 to 81% in that time. There is NO correlation between cell phone usage and cancer rates on the macro level.
More specifically, the paper summarizes in its conclusion that:
- 5G increases wealth worldwide, and thus positively impacts life expectancy worldwide.
Citing the WHO, “80% of children with cancer will survive in wealthy nations, while only about 20% will survive in low/middle income countries.” So, maybe while cancer rates are important, perhaps cancer survival rates we can more easily aim to improve.
- Refutations
- WHO Study
The paper my opponent cites classifies cellular radio waves in the category 2B. This is only one tier up from “Not classifiable as to its carcinogenicity to humans” and is the same tier as caffeic acid (present in all plants and an ingredient in coffee) and pickled vegetables.
“The evidence was reviewed critically, and overall evaluated as being limited among users of wireless telephones for glioma and acoustic neuroma, and inadequate to draw conclusions for other types of cancers.”
In other words, assuming this link exists, it results in increased risk for glioma and acoustic neuroma, with pretty much negligible effects in all other forms of cancer. So, let’s examine glioma rates. A Forbes publication clarifies:
“Looking at the relevant articles, one finds that the incidence of all brain cancers has been remarkably stable over a number of decades in various countries: U.S. (slight decrease – 1992 to 2014), Australia (stable - 1982 - 2014), Ireland (stable - 1994 - 2013), New Zealand (stable – 1995 to 2010), and Taiwan (decrease from 1999 to 2012).”
There simply is no link. Next argument
And, as you literally say so yourself: “this study focused on the maximum permitted levels of 3G, as a baseline, and then 4 times that amount as the upper end.” Let’s also consider that DigitalTrends states that it wasn’t just the levels of exposure, it was also the duration. The duration of exposure was much higher than any person will have at any one time.
LiveScience goes into depth:
- NTP Study
"For the study, the animals were housed in special chambers so the researchers could control how much radiation they received. The animals were exposed to a total of 9 hours of radiation per day, in 10-minutes sessions. The radiation began in the womb or early in life and lasted for up to two years, which is most of the animals' lifetime.”
So, basically, they blasted mice with radiation on the entirety of their bodies (not localized near the ear and brain for humans) for from their conception for two years, 9 hours a day, and they still had “unclear results.” As the senior scientist of the NTP clarifies himself: “The exposures used in the studies cannot be compared directly to the exposure that humans experience when using a cellphone.”
- NTP Study Conclusions
“Oh so the regulations are sound, one might say.”
Yup.
“This study shows two things. 1. EM at current cm wavelength fields can cause negative biological responses. 2. When you change the power, you have a significant impact on the risk (pin here)”
As for #1, the results of ONE study specifically for MALE RATS doesn’t exactly extrapolate to fit your conclusion. It’s pretty clear the majority of scholarly material shows no significant link between cell phone usage and cancer rates, even in 5G levels (i.e. this, this, and this plus many more.)
To take a few particularly alarmist studies and extrapolate it as absolute fact is scholarly malpractice.
Moving to #2, the risk isn’t particularly significant, for all of the above reasons.
- EU Committee Evaluation
“In 2018 the European Scientific Committee on Health, Environmental, and Emerging Risks highlighted that the negative risks of EM were high against ecosystems and species.”
To quote, they said that
“The effects of electromagnetic radiation have been generally well studied, however low frequency electromagnetic radiation is less well studied, hence the justification for introducing this an emerging issue.”
This doesn’t exactly ring any panic bells for me. It just means they classify it as an issue of further study. Keep in mind, their jobs are to be overly cautious and to assume the worst in order to get fat paychecks. The more issues you can identify, the more you get paid. HUZZAH!
Its waves, especially as you move up the frequency scale, are safe and do not penetrate human skin.
“The RF exposure they're allowed to receive is five times that of the general population, and there is no evidence that they have higher rates of cancer or any other health problems that could possibly be attributable to WiFi radiation than any other population of humans.”
The waves that MIMO uses are not exactly new anyway.
DigitalTrends concludes:
“if 5G is unsafe, it means that we’ve been using “unsafe” frequencies for decades.”Thank you to any voters who have made it so far!
Round 2
Forfeited
I hope that my opponent is able to follow up with a response next round. That said, extend!
Round 3
Forfeited
Ghostbusters!
If there's something strange in you neighborhood,
Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters!
If there's something weird and it don't look good,
Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters!
I ain't afraid of no ghost.
I ain't afraid of no ghost.
If you're seeing things running through your head,
Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters!
An invisible man sleeping in your bed,
Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters!
I ain't afraid of no ghost.
I ain't afraid of no ghost.
Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters!
If you're all alone, pick up the phone and call
Round 4
Forfeited
Welp. Vote CON.
damn it
christopher_best
Who you gonna call?
What do ghostbusters have to do with 5G?
There is so much out there that is claimed to cause cancer [and little citation] that we'd best not leave the house. Except that we allow so much into the house from outside the house that inside the house is just as carcinogenic as outside the house. Maybe we should just stand in the doorway and hope for the best when the earthquake hits. It's probably a cancer, too.
Meanwhile, Michael Flynn is not only probably guilty, but is carcinogenic, too. Not that anyone would know it. No supporting data.
I'm having fun with this so far. I like the 5G topics
It is helpful to define some terms beforehand for the ease of judging. If you're going to use particularly technical terms definitions will be helpful, but discussing the electromagnetic spectrum and the like is inherent in the topic. Really, you can just use your best judgement.
谢谢 Ragnar
You certainly don't need to explain that humans depend on oxygen, or that there is such a thing as an electromagnetic spectrum. That said, when trying to show harm coming from one of those, some details to that harm will be important. On a debate about immediately converting the rain forests into TP, I might cite how much of the oxygen production on the planet comes from it (not the method trees use to do such); whereas my opponent would likely counter with how little oxygen we actually need (perhaps even using CPR to illustrate his or her point).
Clearly labeling parts of your argument can be very helpful. If you start explaining how the earth formed, I can skip ahead to something I don't need the background on, where my energy will be better spent.
Question for you guys. There are some very important scientific elements in my argument. Is it my obligation to explain those concepts, or can I just refer to them as a common understanding? Things like the electromagnetic spectrum, phase arrays, power measurements (watts, joules, calories). Do I have to provide proof of conversion equations etc?
I want to make sure that I provide enough information, without making it too assumption, or on the opposite too verbose.
Sorry for the noob question.
Nice setup.
Alright cool. Thank you and good luck
Done.
If you make the time for argument a week I will accept