Instigator / Con
mairj23's avatar
7
mairj23
1350
rating
29
debates
20.69%
won
Topic
#1481

Could The White Race Survive Without The Black Race?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
1
2

After 2 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

Nemiroff
Tags
Education
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
8,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Pro
Nemiroff's avatar
14
Nemiroff
1554
rating
15
debates
73.33%
won
Description

The title speaks volumes because it's a well-known fact that white people have used murder, theft, slavery & cultural appropriation to build and maintain wealth. Many historians have stated that whites couldn't have survived if it weren't for black people. Whether it's America or Europe or anywhere else in between, white people have never truly practiced what they preach.

I'll be taking the Con side of the argument. If you're an emotional person then don't accept this debate because I'll be bringing in-depth and documented information to the table.

Round 1
mairj23's avatar
mairj23
Con
#1
Disclaimer: First and foremost, I generally debate real-world topics on authentic history, politics and general things. The arguments aren't designed to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm simply using documented facts to get my point across. Of course, I'm well-aware that I won't receive any brownie points for exposing the truth because the demographics are not in my favor. With that being said...

I'll be taking the Con side of things because history has proved that white people wouldn't have been able to survive on their own or from their own merit without black people. If you look back to the infamous "Dark Ages" in Europe, white people were getting sick and dying of their own self-inflicted diseases. If it wasn't for the African Moors, who brought in medicines and science, then Europeans would've simply committed genocide for a basic lack of understanding in cleanliness. 

If you fast-forward a bit to slavery, then you'd easily see that whites couldn't do the work because they lacked agricultural knowledge and didn't possess the work ethic to get the job done. Of course, if you have the power then you can certainly force someone else to do the work. Yes, it was morally wrong for chattel slavery, but it was a business move that whites benefited from. Fast-forward a bit more and history shows that whites received free acres of land after immigrating to America through government programs. Coming to new countries as friends and committing genocide against the aboriginals of the land was another come-up.

When looking at random topics, whites have used cultural appropriation to build wealth. When studying music, black people created jazz, hip hop, rock/roll, blues etc., but credit is given to people like Elvis who had absolutely no vocal talent what-so-ever. When looking at the Native Americans, "who were/are originally dark-skinned people," whites have even tried to classify themselves as part Native, which is another scam...Senator Elizabeth Warren is the epitome of a white person who claims to be Native. If she never would've taken that DNA test, then she'd still be pulling off this ridiculous scheme. Systemic Racism such as Jim Crow, Redlining, and The Black Codes were all put in place to hinder one group's progression while ascending another group's progression.

And finally, white people love to tell black people that they should go back to Africa, but if you take a good look at Africa, whites are everywhere on the continent. Stealing land, teaching a false doctrine which is Christianity and spreading man-made diseases. Of course, all of this swindling is done simply to get their hands on those natural resources...Can't forget about the religious indoctrination that have taken place. Whites are pretending to be Jews, and there's a pale-skinned Jesus. If white people actually read the Bible then they will clearly understand who is who and what is what. 

In conclusion, if you look at documented history, then you can't help but agree that if it weren't for black people, white people wouldn't be able to survive.
My opponent has to prove me wrong, but it's going to be mighty hard trying to debunk documented facts.....Good Luck
Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Pro
#2
Counter argument: White people survived very well and thrived for many millennia without consistent contact with black people. They worked their own lands, they built their own towns, and they made many scientific and engineering discoveries. Unfortunate as the history of imperialism is, you don't conquer people by being weak and helpless.

Rebuttals: 

 If you look back to the infamous "Dark Ages" in Europe, white people were getting sick and dying of their own self-inflicted diseases. If it wasn't for the African Moors, who brought in medicines and science, then Europeans would've simply committed genocide for a basic lack of understanding in cleanliness. 

The only epidemic that came close to wiping out Europe was the black death and I found no mention of any moors. I am unable to cite a "lack of mention" as people tend to not chronicle lists of things that did not happen. It is up to my opponent to provide his source. Most agree the plague ended after simply killing off almost everyone who was susceptible to it. Without hosts, a disease cannot spread, like a predator that overkills his food, then starves.

slavery, then you'd easily see that whites couldn't do the work because they lacked agricultural knowledge and didn't possess the work ethic to get the job done. Of course, if you have the power then you can certainly force someone else to do the work. Yes, it was morally wrong for chattel slavery, but it was a business move that whites benefited from. Fast-forward a bit more and history shows that whites received free acres of land after immigrating to America through government programs. Coming to new countries as friends and committing genocide against the aboriginals of the land was another come-up.
White people farmed their lands for a long time. Most white people did not own slaves, and had to work. Hard. Slave labor is not a sign of work ethic, it is a sign of injustice. Everyone works hard under a whip, there is no choice. On a side note, being able to travel long distances and murder people doesn't sound like a people in imminent danger, not with how no one has ever been able to effectively challenge them on their turf, except for other white people. And no, a terrorist act is not an existential threat, its a sucker punch that deserves a (targeted) beat down.

whites have used cultural appropriation to build wealth. When studying music, black people created jazz, hip hop, rock/roll, blues etc., but credit is given to people like Elvis who had absolutely no vocal talent what-so-ever. When looking at the Native Americans, "who were/are originally dark-skinned people," whites have even tried to classify themselves as part Native, which is another scam...Senator Elizabeth Warren is the epitome of a white person who claims to be Native. If she never would've taken that DNA test, then she'd still be pulling off this ridiculous scheme. Systemic Racism such as Jim Crow, Redlining, and The Black Codes were all put in place to hinder one group's progression while ascending another group's progression.
Elizabeth Warren is a white person, not white people. And it isn't unlikely that someone would believe something about their family from their family. If her family has a long history here, it isn't impossible. DNA testing to confirm is a very recent thing; this was supposedly a family lore. Anyway, its petty character assassination and a distraction.

Cultural appropriation is good. Black people appropriated plenty from white people as well. Trade is good, not only of goods, but ideas.
HOWEVER, the stealing of intellectual property from black people by the music industry was wrong. That still does show a people in danger of dying. Whites (sorry) are culturally inept, (we got classical, we got country, then we have really bad lame dances, and extremely unhealthy [delicious] food). We are, however, engineering geniuses since ancient times. We also know good culture when we see it!

whites are everywhere on the continent. Stealing land, teaching a false doctrine which is Christianity and spreading man-made diseases. Of course, all of this swindling is done simply to get their hands on those natural resources...Can't forget about the religious indoctrination that have taken place. Whites are pretending to be Jews, and there's a pale-skinned Jesus. 
Whites are mostly concentrated in south africa to my knowledge, and there they only make up around 9%
Many African nations don't have any significant white population, like Liberia and the Central African Republic


In conclusion, it seems most of my opponents claims are false, and with no sources provided, they may as well be opinion. Thank you.
Round 2
mairj23's avatar
mairj23
Con
#3
My opponent, (Pro), has made his very first blunder in his initial argument by saying "The only epidemic that came close to wiping out Europe was the black death and I found no mention of any moors," but he doesn't even know that The Black Death actually took place during the During Ages. The Moors brought in medicines, culture and science...Senegalese Historian Cheikh Anta Diop and other Anthropologists have stated that "the Moors restored civilization and that there was little-to-no scientific/cultural progress in Europe before the Dark Ages." 

To further institute the lack of education and physical capability in Europe, Roman scholars/historians stated that "the British were naked savages & war mad."
These particular AD-white people had no writing system."...https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Heres-How-Black-Muslims-Lifted-Europe-out-of-the-Dark-Ages-20170409-0026.html ...There's your source, and I have plenty more to back it up.

As you can see, the African Moors dominated Spain and other areas of Europe. If anyone has ever been to Europe, then you've probably noticed all of the prominent statues of Africans throughout Europe in which are the Moors.

My opponent goes on to say "being able to travel long distances and murder people doesn't sound like a people in imminent danger, not with how no one has ever been able to effectively challenge them on their turf, except for other white people. And no, a terrorist act is not an existential threat, its a sucker punch that deserves a (targeted) beat down"...As you can see, Pro's statement just proved what the Roman scholars/historians have stated about white people in which whites were naked savages and war mad...Yes, Pro has just put his foot in his very own mouth, and I've sourced the information above.

As I said earlier, if it weren't for the African Moors bringing in science/medicine/culture, then Europeans wouldn't have been able to travel long distances and murder people...It takes mathematics and science to build ships and to navigate the seas...Mathematics and science comes from Ancient Kemet and Ancient Kemet is in Africa which is why the original term is known as Kemetic Science.

My opponent goes on to defend Senator Elizabeth Warren for pretending to be part Native American, and that it's a family lore. Pro also says that "it's petty assassination and a distraction."...Senator Warren, just like so many other white people, are simply pulling another scheme. Everyone knows that Native tribes receive reparational benefits in the form of money, land, free college grants and loans. There's a term that's used for white people who pretend to be Native, and it's known as the "$5 Indian."...White people illegally payed $5 to get their names on the Dawes Roll Commission to receive the benefits of land, money, tax exemption etc. 

My opponent puts his foot in his mouth yet again by saying "Whites (sorry) are culturally inept, (we got classical, we got country. We are, however, engineering geniuses since ancient times...Lol. Pro and most people don't even know that Country music was started by black people. It is a documented fact that the earliest form of Country music used banjo instrumentation. The banjo was invented by enslaved-southern black people in the mid-to-late 1600s who used it as entertainment while working and for entertaining the slave masters. Proof? https://www.pushblack.us/news/what-happened-black-innovation-real-origins-country-music-0  In other words, the banjo is a West African Artform. The Chicago Tribune and Time Magazine has already reported this information decades ago.


My opponent claimed that I never show sources, and all of this information is well-documented

Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Pro
#4
My opponent, (Pro), has made his very first blunder in his initial argument by saying "The only epidemic that came close to wiping out Europe was the black death and I found no mention of any moors," but he doesn't even know that The Black Death actually took place during the During Ages. The Moors brought in medicines, culture and science...Senegalese Historian Cheikh Anta Diop and other Anthropologists have stated that "the Moors restored civilization and that there was little-to-no scientific/cultural progress in Europe before the Dark Ages." 

To further institute the lack of education and physical capability in Europe, Roman scholars/historians stated that "the British were naked savages & war mad."
These particular AD-white people had no writing system."...https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Heres-How-Black-Muslims-Lifted-Europe-out-of-the-Dark-Ages-20170409-0026.html
There is no "During ages", there are the middle ages, which is when the events happened... none of that changes the lack of moors curing it or an alternative disease that was of similar or greater threat that was cured by moors. Your link references some common known contributions of muslims during the Islamic golden age like zero, the contributions of many muslims like "al"gebra, "al"gorithms, as well as much of the classical greek (white) knowledge and findings from before them. We have all made great contributions. Btw, not all of that, like the concept of zero came from "black muslims" as your link claims, but middle eastern brown muslims.

This link btw is from telesur, a media company sponsored by venzuela and has been caught in many falsehoods like photomanipulation.

Regarding writing: I would not be surprised if some tribal societies including those of early norther Europe, Native American, sub saharan Africa, and some parts of Asia, had no effective written language. Despite that, none of them were in danger of dying except for by other men. Also, Africans did no bring their language to Europe, so their contribution to this aspect is zero.

If anyone has ever been to Europe, then you've probably noticed all of the prominent statues of Africans throughout Europe in which are the Moors.
I have been to Europe, most statues are uncolored marble or other materials, but clearly represent white people. Perhaps Spain has a handful.

Pro's statement just proved what the Roman scholars/historians have stated about white people in which whites were naked savages and war mad
Romans were themselves white people. Some African tribes are still naked savages and many were known to be war mad. This is true of most tribal societies world wide... most of which are currently in Africa btw.

Mathematics and science comes from Ancient Kemet and Ancient Kemet is in Africa which is why the original term is known as Kemetic Science.
A search of the term kemetic science resulted exclusively in results for kemetic orthodoxy, a religion with no connection to science. I suspect my opponent is making stuff up.

Much of the knowledge rediscovered by Europe during the Renaissance was ancient Greek (white) knowledge. You cherry pick isolated historic events while ignoring others. 

There's a term that's used for white people who pretend to be Native, and it's known as the "$5 Indian."...White people illegally payed $5 to get their names on the Dawes Roll Commission to receive the benefits of land, money, tax exemption etc. 
People use fraud to get ahead. That is universal. There are laws in all societies against this because this crime occurs in all societies. What is your point?


My opponent points out country music is not white, which is ok. He does not refute the "whites are engineering geniuses point," which is certainly a boost to a civilizations survivability.
Round 3
mairj23's avatar
mairj23
Con
#5
My opponent is simply in denial at this point because he isn't making any sense what-so-ever. One of the reasons to why he isn't making any sense is that he seems to think that the "Dark Ages" and the "Middle Ages" are two separate things. This is what's known as semantics, which is simply word games that someone starts referring to when their arguments are getting shut down with "Documented Facts." 

My opponent, (Pro), is basically saying that the African Moors didn't play a key role in saving Europeans during the Dark Ages despite there being documented evidence of them doing so. He's basically ignoring the facts of well-known historians, highly educated anthropologists and Roman scholars. He goes on to say that  "the contributions of many muslims like "al"gebra, "al"gorithms, as well as much of the classical greek (white) knowledge and findings from before them."

My opponent boastfully put brackets around the word white when referring to the Greek. At the same time, Pro lacks the (basic) knowledge that Europeans didn't even consider Greeks to be white until the 20th century. Greeks are darker in complexion and tend to have African ancestry, which goes back to the Moors who dominated the region before and during that specific timeframe...Many Spaniards & Italians also have African lineage which is why they have more melanin in their skin than the average white person...I guess they got those natural tans from sunbathing? Hmmmm

My opponents biggest blunder is when he said that "I have been to Europe, most statues are uncolored marble or other materials, but clearly represent white people. Perhaps Spain has a handful."...My reply: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/557179785124541198/?lhttps://www.volvocars.com/us/cars/new-models/s60/trims/r-designp=true   So, if the statues are (uncolored), then why does the statues have brown/black skin complexions?...I'll wait...………..

As you can see, I just caught my opponent in another lie and I'm dying to hear his explanation. My opponent has lost all credibility at this point.

Pro says that "Romans were themselves white people. Some African tribes are still naked savages and many were known to be war mad. This is true of most tribal societies world wide... most of which are currently in Africa btw."...It's quite clear that Pro is starting to let his emotions get the best of him. As I said before, "Roman Scholars" stated that (((The British Were Naked Savages & War Mad)))...Did I not say that??... Are you aware that the Romans are specifically talking about the British and not themselves???

My opponent trips over his own feet yet again by saying that "A search of the term kemetic science resulted exclusively in results for kemetic orthodoxy, a religion with no connection to science. I suspect my opponent is making stuff up." My reply: Wow!...Here's a little history lesson. Mathematics is important to science because when scientific findings in nature are expressed mathematically, they are easier to verify or disprove by experiment...In other words, mathematics and science goes hand-to-hand....Yes, people use fraud to get freebies, but I would like for Pro to tell me why are white people considered to be $5 Indians? I'll wait...

In conclusion, Pro just doesn't have enough knowledge to debate these topics and it's clear by his lack of argument. He has yet to answer any of the questions about white people using systemic racism to get ahead, whites getting acres of free land via government programs, and the blatant lies of Christianity.

He has basically thrown in the towel.
Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Pro
#6
I have no idea why my opponent claims I stated the dark and middle ages are different. Maybe he didnt read his own post referrencing the "during" ages.

Quoting someone who said they brought science and culture is not showing them bringing medicine during an epidemic.... nor was the claim about science or culture provided with citation. 

It is common knowledge that during the middle ages western europe went backwards, however the eastern roman empire continued to have culture. Furthermore, a significant portion of the islamic knowledge came from greeks, who are white.

The fact that romans didnt consider the tribes arond england white, or the fact that the english later didnt consider italians and greeks white is irrelevant. Some of those same people didnt consider black people human at all, would you blindly agree with their words on that as well?

Im hoping we both agree the english, the romans, and the greeks were all white. If not, then you need to define what you mean by black and white as the instigator.

My opponent then posts a link to random statues and paintings of black people on pintrest with no mention of locations in order to ineffectively proof their existence in europe. Even if there were locations, anecdotal examples make for weak arguments. 

Kemetic orthodoxy has nothing to do with science or math. Its a religion. I have no idea what is the point of this rambling.

If your white, and didnt get indian land for $5, you are not called a $5 indian. That makes up 99.999999% of white people in history, and 100% of white people today. So no, white people are not called $5 indian.

white people using systemic racism to get ahead, whites getting acres of free land via government programs, and the blatant lies of Christianity.

None of those represent a people in danger of dying out, nor outsiders saving them...

1 more round. Yay!
Round 4
mairj23's avatar
mairj23
Con
#7
As we all can see, my opponent has gone into full-blown defensive mode because he's become short-tempered and is playing semantics. Before I end this debate, I want to further point out some of his nonsensical retorts. 

Semantic #1: Pro consistently points out the fact that I made a simple typo by saying the "During Ages" in stead of saying the Dark Ages. Sir, whether this grammar mistake comes from computer keys sticking or simple misspelled words, we can all agree that I was referring to the Dark Ages...You on the other hand has also made several grammar mistakes with improper sentences, the misuse of quotes/brackets and misspelled words. When someone is clearly losing as badly as yourself, they'll generally take part in (petty) semantics.

My opponent says that "It is common knowledge that during the middle ages western europe went backwards." My reply: You're simply preaching to the choir. That's generally what happens during pandemics.
Pro also says that "The fact that romans didnt consider the tribes arond england white, or the fact that the english later didnt consider italians and greeks white is irrelevant. Some of those same people didnt consider black people human at all, would you blindly agree with their words on that as well?

I'm going to play the "petty-grammar game" since you love to point out my typo. You just misspelled three basic words in your quote from above. You also need to capitalize proper nouns such as Italians and Greeks. Always insert an apostrophe between the letters (n) and (t) when spelling the word "didn't."
I digress so back to business.

My reply: Yes, I agree, and here is why. It's not irrelevant because it gives you a point of reference to what was taking place during this time and how people viewed each other. Since the Romans said that the Brits were naked savages and war mad, then the Romans must have seen or experienced these things about the Brits.

Since the other Europeans didn't consider Italian/Greeks as white until the 20th century, then there's certainly a reason for classifying them as nonwhite. Anyone with general knowledge knows that African Moors dominated certain parts of Europe, which most certainly resulted in bi-racial offspring...Am I correct?

My opponent continues to embarrass himself by saying that the African-Moorish sculpters on Pinterest aren't proof of the Moors' rulership in Europe...Sir, someone complied the sculptors and put them on a specific site because some people are too lazy to research the sculptors individually. I guess my opponent wants me to hold his hand and guide him to every single source. 

You're absolutely right! Kemetic Orthodoxy is a religion, and it has nothing to do with Kemetic Science...My opponent clearly won't put in the effort to research the topic. If he did, then he most certainly wouldn't be running to Wikipedia for all of his answers...which isn't the most reliable source to begin with.

And Finally, Pro says that "If your white, and didnt get indian land for $5, you are not called a $5 indian. That makes up 99.999999% of white people in history, and 100% of white people today. So no, white people are not called $5 indian….My reply: You confused the word "your" instead of using the correct word "you're."...You also left out the apostrophe (') for the word (didn't) and you didn't capitalize the word Indian because it's a ………….proper noun.

To end this one-sided debate, Pro doesn't know what a $5 Indian is, which is why he's still playing semantics with words. He also never spoke on the remaining topics that I specifically mentioned because he doesn't have a solid argument to reply with. I've given documented information that came from documented sources as usual. My opponent is simply outclassed, and he's doing nothing more than filibustering.


Nemiroff's avatar
Nemiroff
Pro
#8
Pro consistently points out the fact that I made a simple typo by saying the "During Ages" in stead of saying the Dark Ages. 

My opponent enjoys moving the goal post. Rather then demonstrating when i even implied middle and dark ages are different, he scolds me for quoting him in my defense from this false attack. 

My opponent says that "It is common knowledge that during the middle ages western europe went backwards." My reply: You're simply preaching to the choir. That's generally what happens during pandemics.

Not a pandemic, and western Europe went backwards centuries before any epidemic

It's not irrelevant because it gives you a point of reference to what was taking place during this time and how people viewed each other. 

This debate was described as being about the survival of a lineage as defined today. If we shift membership for social clarification reasons throughout the timeline, survivability is not measurable. This argument has zero merit. 

Since the other Europeans didn't consider Italian/Greeks as white until the 20th century, then there's certainly a reason for classifying them as nonwhite. Anyone with general knowledge knows that African Moors dominated certain parts of Europe, which most certainly resulted in bi-racial offspring...Am I correct?

If by certain parts you mean exclusively Spain then yes. Not Greece and Italy which are the only 2 countries mentioned in that paragraph, so no.

My opponent continues to embarrass himself by saying that the African-Moorish sculpters on Pinterest aren't proof of the Moors' rulership in Europe...Sir, someone complied the sculptors and put them on a specific site because some people are too lazy to research the sculptors individually. I guess my opponent wants me to hold his hand and guide him to every single source.

Proof of the existence of art depicting black people does not prove their location. Nor does this prove the delivery of medicine. A subject sorely missing from con's arguments. 

You're absolutely right! Kemetic Orthodoxy is a religion, and it has nothing to do with Kemetic Science

I pasted a Google search result showing no reference for kemetic science anywhere. The search was for kemetic science, only orthodoxy came up. As far as i can tell kemetic science never existed. My opponent has provided no proof of its existence. 

In conclusion, at no point did my opponent demonstrate any existential threat facing europe to which black people brought salvation. Many of my opponents arguments were irrelevant and baffling. I hope i demonstrate my case. Thank you very much. Please vote pro.