“It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.”
-Joseph Joubert (English writer)
Truth is undeniably the most important thing that we aim to grasp in our lives. Regardless of who we are, truth runs our lives.
For an army, the true position and state of the enemy
For a teacher, the true teachings of Math, English, Science, etc
For a scientist, the true scientific laws, methods, and facts
When we again approach our subject of debate, this understanding of truth stands firm.
Before I respond and make some final remarks, I want to ask RationalMadman one question:
Ultimately, why debate? Why not simply discuss a major issue, or if you only want to win over people to your view, simply give a one-sided speech to convince them?
I noticed that in your opening statement you use very familiar language to someone aiming only to convince people to their views:
“Debates encourage you to outwit, out charm and outmaneuver the opponent via logic, emotional appeal and anything to get the votes that doesn't break the rules.”
R:
1.Yes these are commonly used tactics today that are abused. You have not answered or rebutted the primary goal of debate.
2. If we gather to debate each other to find out who is wrong on an issue, then our goal is to find truth. These tactics then do not deal with the true goal of debate.
3. Further your insistence that debate is merely a game to trick others to vote for you, as long as it is within the rules, is simply the cherry on top of my previous argument that “winning” is what most people think debate to be now.
“If an environment is severely competitive, it is not abusive then to dodge points that you believe the audience won't catch onto from your opposition; it's just good strategy. Equally, it's not abusive to strut around like you won if the debate has no clear win-condition (forum debating).”
R:
Abusive to what? If our goal is truth, then it is indeed abusive to dodge arguments just because you want to win. If I was a flat earther dodging an astronaut’s main argument for a round earth in a debate, I would remain ignorant of the truth of his argument, thus abusing the goal.
“Instead, it's not debating that's being abused at all, it's debating itself that is conducive to harsh and cunning behavior as a necessity to correctly engage in it.”
R: All you have done is reiterate your past point. You must redefine the goal of debate to be winning in order for this statement to be true. But once more you have missed the goal of debate as the pursuit of truth.
“The focus here is on what is being abused”
R: Once more: Truth
R(definitions):
At this point RationalMadman brings in two definitions of debate. These definitions are myopic or narrow minded, as they focus only on small aspects of debate such as certain procedures and certain places where we see debating such as in Parliament. These definitions do not tackle the overarching theme and goal of debate. (refer back to my question for RationalMadman)
I would also like to do a little history study of the constitutional debates to see why debate was used and the goal associated with it.
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The Constitutional debates
We all know that our early colonial government was not enough to keep our nation together. Some form of government was needed, but at what cost to the liberties and freedoms we had just recovered from the tyrannical British?
Our founding fathers had an immeasurable amount of pressure to find the right system of government, and so they debated. Why? Because they wanted to find the right balance between these two competing issues. We might ask: Why not have a discussion on the topic, why debate it?
The answer comes to the core issue of debate. Debate was never meant to be a mere discussion, but one in which great amounts of information was needed to be discussed to find the true conclusion for an issue of great magnitude. Well, the survival of our nation was certainly an issue of great magnitude and the amount of views were endless.
The amount of thought that went into our founding documents is miraculous, but understandable. Debate was strong and everyone wanted to find the right system and answers to our early problems.
You know what comes next?
Modern Day August 14, 2019
Refer back to my points on debate today. Everyone just wants to “win”. Political deadlock is almost unavoidable. The majority of people are closed books, sticking to their political camps like oil and water. This point, I think we can all agree, is quite clear.
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Conclusion
In conclusion, we understand that the point of debate is to figure out who is right and wrong. Nothing simpler could be said for it. RationalMadman made the case for ways debate can be twisted to garner “wins”. This is a sad testimony for my side, as it presupposes that debate is simply a tool used to swindle or fool others into siding with the debater.
To the viewer.
This debate about debate may be seemingly confusing, or maybe you understand both sides.
I think we can learn something from it though, that our views are nothing without being examined for truth.
As the great Socrates once said that the unexamined life is not worth living.
Perhaps no statement is truer,
To Truth!
-logicae
logicae is like the ultra anti-nihilist
Sorry about the dropped first round RationalMadman! I was absent and should have posted sooner.
To Truth!
-logicae
@Ragnar
Hello,
I can certainly see why you would use debate as a type of peer review, but is that all it has been diluted to? Everyone seems to ascribe to this new notion of "polarization" where one's ideas becomes a part of them and attacking those ideas is similar to an attack on the person.
I think we can agree debate was meant for something more, at least a way to find light in a controversial matter.
Regardless though,
To Truth!
-logicae
I'm going to second what Luke said.
I tend to use debate when the difference of opinion is polarizing. It further serves as a type of peer-review, to find faults with strongly held notions.
@LordLuke
Hello,
What do you mean?
-logicae
Isn't that what forum could be for, anyway?
@omar2345
Hello old friend! Yes I am.
To Truth!
-logicae
Are you from DDO?