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@Dynasty
Actually, there is evidence that he existed. For examples, The Jewish Talmud and Josephus mention him.
Do you honestly believe that just because the name of Christ was "mentioned" by other obscure and dubious sources it any way validates the existence of such a character?
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Many creationists often use the complexity argument in their assertion that life was designed by a creator. . . . . . "the human body is far too complex to have just happened by accident".
Also: "Complexity is the result of design".
Then, out come the usual, well-worn analogies of a watch dropped in the sand and a Boeing 747 miraculously coming together during a gust of wind over a junk-yard.
The fundamental flaw of creationists' arguments is the erroneous assumption that complexity is the result of design.
Quite the opposite is true.
The top watchmakers in Switzerland create superb precision timepieces but not out of complexity. Each component and mechanism fulfills its intended purpose, No more, No less. The watch operates with the bare minimum of parts in order for it to reliably keep time. . . . . It is as simple as possible to perform its function and therefore not complex.
Compare this with life forms that are highly complex.
The body of a mammal (the human is a mammal) is a mass of convoluted valves and conduits, fluids, and extraneous organs. There is no way that a designer would ever set out to create a living entity by haphazardly whacking together bunches of organic components on the fly.
The point creationists seem to conveniently overlook is that complexity is the result of "accumulation over time".
For example, We can marvel at the vast and wondrous beauty of an underground cave full of giant stalagmites and stalactites. They weren't created, they were formed by minerals accumulating and bonding over a very long period of time. . . hundreds of thousands of years.
The same goes for life. Life developed over a very long period of time and here, we are talking of billions of years.
Is it not then, more valid to say that life is far too complex (and convoluted) to have been designed?
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@Mopac
If atheist governments didn't kill dozens of millions of Christians in the last century simply for being so while spouting the type of rhetoric you do, you might not give that impression.
The operative word here is "if".
Perhaps you may like to draw upon a modicum of intestinal fortitude and actually say something backed up with reason and facts.
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@Stephen
I agree. There was a time, way back when the religion was concocted that sort of behavior and attitude were the norm. But they were barbaric, cruel and dark times where the masses were grossly ignorant through lack of education or knowledge.
Modern civilised society is well educated, has better morals and there is no reason for the repulsive, backward behavior of Christians.
Just excuses.
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@Stephen
True, they are pretty open and honest.
There's nothing like shoving a poofter off the roof of a public building.
And making their women folk look like walking shrouds (several paces behind their husbands that is, or sandwiched between two or more male family members.
You have a point there. Christians are just as bigoted and obscene. it's just that they have learnt to be more deceptive and in denial about their repulsive practices than their opposition.
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@Mopac
Exposing someone else's bigotry is hardly being bigoted, is it?
Can you explain why my sexual habits or those of homosexuals are in any way perverse?
I have a preoccupation in exposing the facts about Christianity.
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Customer 1: I would like you to issue a wedding license. But I must tell you though that my husband-to-be has short hair and is cleanly shaven. (Leviticus 19:27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. ) I hope that poses no problem for you.
Christian Marriage Registrar: Oh, No of course not. I will be glad to issue you with a wedding license.
Customer 2: I would like you to issue a wedding license. But I must tell you though that my husband-to-be has tattoos on his body (Leviticus 19:28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves) I hope that poses no problem for you.
Christian Marriage Registrar: Oh, No of course not. I will be glad to issue you with a wedding license
Customer 3: I would like you to issue a wedding license. But I must tell you though that my wife-to-be will be wearing a wedding dress made from polyester and silk. (Leviticus 19:19 Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.)
I hope that poses no problem for you.
Christian Marriage Registrar: Oh, No of course not. I will be glad to issue you with a wedding license.
Customer 4 : I would like you to issue a wedding license. But I must tell you though that my fiance is another guy, We are gay. (Leviticus 18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman. ) I hope that poses no problem for you.
Christian Marriage Registrar: There's the door. . . . . . Now use it.
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@Alec
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?
Yes I do and I presented it.
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@Mopac
Again you are making an erroneous supposition that I am not interested in understanding religion, based on your own biased judgement
I can, by the same token, say that you are not interested in understanding reality. Except that further more, I can back up my claim in that you refuse to address any of the well-supported and proven facts that I have presented.
You have also refused to elaborate on any of your claims when requested and your gratuitous use of the word "truth" is very telling.
In fact, deceitful.
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@Mopac
And dismissing something with solid evidence and facts requires objective research and stimulates intelligent discussion.
So, I think it is obvious that somebody else is dismissing properly researched evidence and facts on hearing, refusing to put a single thought or effort into believing it because of a profound preconditioned bias and instead resorts to preaching some of the most proven malicious, gut-wrenching and thoughtless rhetoric..
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@ethang5
"He is incredibly caustic and bitter, openly advocating that religious people, especially Christians, be locked up or killed."
Do you really think it appropriate, let alone morally just to make up such a fabrication?
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@EtrnlVw
Cite one "insult" that is not valid, justified or factual.
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@Outplayz
Exactly.
Or, "whichever one you were led to believe."
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@Mopac
Preaching biased nonsense hardly constitutes intelligent discussion at all.
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@Alec
I think you will find that the rules of the site make it quite clear about making personal attacks on other members.
And anyone who admits to having a vacillating nature would hardly be worthy of making valued judgments about anything.
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@Mopac
And you have proven through your disjointed, deluded. offensive and completely unqualified ramblings that you know nothing about "the truth" whatsoever.
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@Mopac
Do you think it necessary to add to an already dismal track record of lies and deception by making veiled repulsive personal attacks on others through guilt and fear?
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What many religious followers don't want to accept is that there are many religions, each claiming to be the only one and the only path to an afterlife of bliss for eternity.
So which is the right one?
Just because one subscribes to a particular religion (usually because of one's geographical placement), It doesn't make it the correct religion, Does it?
Well, May we all barrack for our national football team, but, surely religion is something different and the choice of a religion based solely on one's location or culture is fraught with danger.
Shouldn't we look at the first religion as being the one and only authentic religion and subsequent copies as fake?
According to the Ancient History Encyclopedia, Christianity, For example, Comes well down the timeline of when religions started.
Preceding all these religions, and, by a considerable margin of time is the Australian Aboriginal "Dreamtime".
We are looking at 40,000 years BCE and the religion is still followed by Aboriginals today.
So, Shouldn't we give these people the benefit of the doubt that what they say about their spiritual attachment to the land through Dreamtime is the one true and only valid religion?
In which case, Abrahamic religious followers should take note that their afterlife may not be one of their spirit returning to the Dreamtime but, because of their errant choice, will more likely end up existing in an eternal nightmare in the middle of the Simpson desert with not a drop of water to touch their tongues, enduring constant searing heat and constantly fending off satanic, deadly taipans.
Perhaps it may be time to throw those Bibles, Qurans, And Torahs in the fire, get out the souvenir boomerang and start a corroboree.
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@Mopac
Perhaps you may wish to start heeding your own advice instead of making gratuitous posts that have been correctly proven to be full of lies, deceit, and hatred towards others.
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@ronjs
Why should a homosexual seek help?
An alcoholic has a problem with drinking.
A pedophile has a problem with unacceptable behavior towards minors.
Homosexuals do not have problems any more than any other normal socially well-adjusted person.
It is people who try to make an analogy between homosexuality and other problems who are the problem.
And, as I quite rightly pointed out, it is those people who need to be converted from being bigoted, hateful and ignorant.
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@ethang5
Do you feel it appropriate then that theists should be allowed to attack the intelligence of others by preaching utter lies, doom and gloom, hatred and morbid fear?
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@Mopac
I understand your faith completely and it is repulsive.
It is those who are naive, gullible, weak and vulnerable who made to understand what they want to hear.
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@Mopac
True. The Bible is used to teach.
To teach that people of minority groups are to be hated.
To teach people what they can and cannot do with their genitals.
To teach utter lies about the promise of an afterlife.
To teach fear.
To teach immorality.
To teach anti-social behavior.
To teach elitism.
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@Mopac
Absolutely wrong and I have proven sufficiently that Churches do incite hatred against others.
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@Stephen
Quite right of you to pick up on that point.
Yes, there was some other rubbish in the room.
But I threw the crucifix out the window.
And I used the picture of Christ as a dartboard.
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@Mopac
Fact 1: To most people the Bible is irrelevant.
Fact 2: The Bible is irrelevant because it was written in times when society was barbaric, cruel and had poor morals by today's standards.
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@Mopac
I can understand that however the problem is that religion does have a problem....
....a problem with society in that religious institutions pray on the naive, weak and gullible to promote an ugly agenda of absolute lies and fear.
It is only in recent times that Christian Church has tried to put across an image of being compassionate and charitable.
By and large most people can see through such corny hypocricy.
For example, Mother Theresa was placed on a pedestal by Catholic and other denominational Churches as a selfless worker who helped thousands of poor children.
In reality it has been revealed that she was in fact a self-serving hard, sour bitch who used hardly any of the massive donations given to her to feed and clothe the poor. More than 80% of donations were spent on erecting "schools and Churches" to lure innocent children into the Christian faith.
Again, you are surmising (and wrong) about my background.
About as wrong and surmising as religion is.
There is no such thing as worshiping truth.
And there is certainly nothing at all truthful about religion.
Let the facts speak for themselves.
I have presented arguments that have been fully backed by reason and sound evidence and so far, none of that evidence has been overturned.
Religion has proven itself to be no more than a means for those who are deceitful and evil to manipulate those who are weak for their on self-serving devious ends.
Religion has always been criticised in a bad light and religious followers will always be seen for what they are: radical outcasts and misfits from normal, law-abiding, decent society.
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I was checked into a hotel room recently and found a bible sitting on the desk.
Obviously the room hadn't been cleaned properly and there was some rubbish left behind.
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@ethang5
"Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house."
Excellent advice to be taking when one considers religion and in particular, Christianity which has an abysmal history of human rights violations. Its very foundation is based on hearsay myths and threatens its followers with morbid, fearful untruths about after life.
In fact it would be more apt in the case of Christians not to throw stones when you live in a house (or mud hut) with absolutely no walls at a rock solid fortress.
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@Dr.Franklin
You are quite right.
In fact my point is that IQ has very little to do with religion.
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@Mopac
If what I said was a pretense would you mind expanding on that and explain exactly what you are talking about?
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@Mopac
I have never indicated that I am posting here for charitable reasons, nor to win a popularity contest for that matter.
What I do is expose the reality of religion through sound reasoning and facts.
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@Mopac
But the government should and does tell Churches and everyone else that it is wrong and illegal to vilify minority groups.
If Churches think that they are so high and mighty that they are above the law and use freedom to practice religion as an excuse for bigotry and inciting hatred, they can think again.
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@Dynasty
More to the point:
Hiding (our) homophobia behind Old Testament passes are (we)?
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@ethang5
I like many others in this forum do not necessarily agree with the views of others but do you really think it necessary to make demeaning personal attacks instead of participating in intelligent discussion.
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@Mopac
What makes you assume that I don't understand what you believe?
The fact is I do and am well studied in Christian theology.
I have condemned nobody.
I have already stated the facts as to why Christians have been persecuted for centuries.
Perhaps you may like to consider taking your words back and think about the fact that you have just made erroneous claims against somebody else.
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@PGA2.0
Fact: The Bible is an unreliable, unverified source of information and is riddled with mistakes, anecdotal accounts It is by no means authoritative and is classified as a reference book.
Fact: The morals as outlined in Biblical scripture are draconian, barbaric, primitive, corrupt and well behind the times by hundreds of years.
Fact: Properly conducted independent research studies around the world have confirmed that the IQ of theists is lower because of restriction of education by religious institutions.
FACT: Not one science "was in fact the result of the investigation........"
I challenge you to name one science that is.
FACT: An atheist is quite entitled to say with certainty that there is no God due to the complete lack of evidence whatsoever of the presence of God or any other supernatural phenomena.
FACT: Theists have no right at all and are talking erroneously to claim that there is a God due to the complete lack of evidence whatsoever of the presence of God or any other supernatural phenomena.
FACT: Christian religious institutions encourage elitism to their followers by instilling the belief that they are special and that God has a blueprint for their individual life. Also, that the Christian religion is the "only" religion and that anyone not following such a doctrine is inferior and condemned to an afterlife of damnation.
FACT: Theists have lower IQs than atheists and has been proven so.
FACT: You have failed to back up any of your outrageous, arrogant and flippantly mocking claims.
FACT: Christians have been persecuted for centuries. And, for good reason.
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@Dynasty
There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus Christ existed and I challenge you to present one bit of evidence that such a mythological character ever did exist.
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If you made no such choice then would you like to contribute to the topic and say who you think is the worst?
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Yet another unpleasant episode in the history of organised religion is the hideous practice of "conversion therapy". And, there are reports that this cruel pseudo-scientific practice of brainwashing gay church members to change to being heterosexual is still going on.
"Based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the prior assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation" (Wikipedia)
Given that churches still overwhelmingly condone the vilification of gays, isn't it about time we turn the tables to make churches undertake conversion therapy for their bigotry and hatred of homosexuals?
And while we are at it, how about including therapy to rid church folk of their vilification of other minority groups, those of other religions, those of no religion and their cruel anti-euthanasia and anti-abortion stances?
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At face value, most people would answer "hate".
But if one were to apply a bit more thought, the correct answer would be "indifference".
It stands to reason when we talk about relationships for example. A couple can love and hate each other at different times or even at the same.
But what would be far worse?
Indifference. There is no feeling worse than being hated than not even being recognised.
I bring this up after reading a post (# 94) in the topic "Why Do Christians Hate Gays?"
The respondent finally came up with the following comment after contriving any number of euphemisms to play down the simple fact that he outrightly hates homosexuals: "We certainly don't recognize a union between two members of the same sex as a marriage.
Surely, isn't that the pinnacle of arrogance and ignorance and worse than hatred?
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@Mopac
What on earth does sexual immorality have to do with the subject or homosexuality, for that matter?
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@Mopac
You have once again failed to address the topic.
Preaching gratuitous, promotional hallucinogenic untruths is hardly becoming of intelligent discussion, is it?
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@ethang5
I totally agree with your choice of Jesus being the least bad of the three.
Even though he was responsible for many more deaths than the other two put together he has certainly gained much popularity since his whole image was created approximately 700 years ago.
And we should not disregard the fact that there is one fundamental difference between Christ and the other two charlatans.
The other two actually existed.
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@Dynasty
9. Jesus was a myth and still is.
Fact:There is not one piece of viable evidence whatsoever that in any way confirms such a person ever existed.
10. This is such a ridiculous and absurdly wrong statement that it deserves no comment whatsoever.
So, if someone were to flippantly present a list of established proven facts as being stupid without any qualification whatsoever, what does that say about such a person?
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@Dynasty
Except for numbers 4 and 8 (which sound rather obscure) the points you listed may very well sound stupid to you however they are factual and correct.
1. It is a fact that more than 90% of religious followers follow their particular religion based on geographical and cultural factors.
2. Hitler was a Roman Catholic. He was democratically elected into office on a mandate of having (the Christian) God sanctioning his "dealing with" an entire race. Also, the Vatican fully supported Hitler and financed the Nazi party.
3. Do you really need someone to recite the sordid story of Sodom and Gomorrah? And that is just the start of it. Most governments censor videos depicting gratuitous acts of sex and violence that are far milder than what the Bible sets out to promote.
5. God is (theoretically and allegedly) evil. Any master who presides over the constant suffering, and death of thousands of innocent children every day is nothing short of being sadistically evil of the worst kind. And anyone who tries to justify what God allows by citing "free-will" is just as evil.
6. Many authoritative research studies have confirmed that those who follow religion have a lower IQ than atheists. There are several factors including deprivation of learning media (through discouragement of being exposed to information that contradicts their belief). Instead of rejecting sound findings and being in denial religious authorities need to ask, "what can we do about it?".
7. It is a fact that those who believe in God are delusional. The very definition of the word "delusion" clearly states such.
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@Mopac
"grounded in identity fallacies" is both hollow and devoid of any substantial meaning.
The facts I presented are irrefutable and were fully backed up by viable evidence.
I have also clearly demonstrated and proven that adhering to (many) Christian "disciplines" is the root cause of inciting hatred towards others.
Trying to sell up draconian hateful beliefs by ignoring facts and an overwhelming groundswell of (well-justified) disgust certainly isn't going to enhance such a (lost) cause.
The days of utilising religion to mask what is no less than unwanted, anti-social evilness are well and and truly over.
"Deviation" (as you put it) from Christian discipline is what has made made decent, secular society to surge ahead in leaps and bounds in terms of quality of life and moral standards. We have long ago cast the shackles of the negative, hate-ridden, fear-mongering, morbid religious influences which have caused more harm and suffering to mankind than any good it has ever (deceptively) promised.
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@Mopac
"We certainly don't recognize a union between two members of the same sex as a marriage."
....is a euphemism for "we hate homosexuals".
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