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@zedvictor4
Yes, that is how I see it.
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Heaven is supposedly a perfect place, as perfection is beyond our comprehension, then trying to visualise what it might be like is probably a waste of time.
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From the theological viewpoint that morality comes from God then the God of the Bible cannot be wicked, for he is supposedly the arbiter of what is good and wicked, therefore whatever he says or does can be deemed by him as good. If for example God was to say murdering people is good, then murdering people would be morally acceptable.
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@Best.Korea
Do you deny that killings, abortions, drugging of children and circumcisions take place in your country? I can easily provide you with the evidence of the opposite. The abortions are the ones that are really undeniable, but others are hard to deny too.
Please don’t bother, your intention to lead this into yet another antiabortion rant was predictable and as I said previously “I’m not playing.”
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@hey-yo
Side question. Has anyone made E.T. references with you? EL-LI-eTT.Do you like resses pieces?Anyways. Quick glance. I see similarities and differences in some of those other instances. Hm. Interesting.
No one has made any connection with E.T.
I had to look up Reese’s Pieces; I don’t think they are available in the UK. I probably wouldn’t like them, I’m not keen of peanut butter and I see they are manufactured by Hershey. I tried a Hershey bar once, it was one of the most revolting things I have ever eaten, after one mouthful I had to spit it out, it tasted just like vomit.
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@Best.Korea
Yes, which is the opposite of your previous claim "I dont believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer".
I have never said "I don’t believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer" so stop making things up.
So how does your society, who deliberatelyinflicts harm on children by authorized agents in response to a breach of rulesdone by their parents, by which they and their parents are governed and heldresponsible,Is different from God who deliberatelyinflicts harm on children if they and their parents are sinners, in order tocreate more good? Begin with excuses to try to find a difference! The difference is obvious. God punisheschildren for their sins and to increase the good. Your society punisheschildren at random: aborts them, kills them, mutilates them... Your societydoesnt increase the good. How could it? Its not like your society is superiorto God in knowledge, nor does your society know if killing, mutilating,drugging, causing pain and placing children at disadvantage has benefits forsociety.
You seem to be confusing the 21st century UK with Nazi Germany, I’m afraid I can’t help you with that one.
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@Best.Korea
Except that time when you said you cannot disobey God (commit murder, adultery...) because you dont believe in God.Your disbelief in God is irrelevant to your ability to do bad things, commit murder, adultery, theft...
My desire not to commit murder has nothing to do with God as I don’t believe in him.
It is interesting how you need to use a made up circular definition to define two words as one: "society's punishment", in order to exclude "death, pain, mutilation, disadvantage and drugging" intentionally done to children in your society by your society as a result of their parent's actions.
It was you who initially used the word "society" in relation to punishment.
You seem to think that any sort of harm or suffering is punishment. Let me try and clarify as to what is the common definition of punishment.
From the Oxford Reference Dictionary ...
Punishment: The deliberate infliction of harm, by authorized agents, on a person, in response to a breach of rules by which, it is claimed, the person is governed, and for which he or she is held responsible.
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@hey-yo
Which pegan concept?
The sacrificial god occurs in many pagan religions, this link covers the subject quite well:
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@Best.Korea
Yes, but thats irrelevant to your claim"I dont believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer".
I never made such a claim.
Your car accident example. If a car hits a child it is an accident unless the driver intended to hit that child then it would be murder, what it isn’t is a punishment inflicted on that child by society and neither are the rest of your examples.
Therefore, when a child lives in one ofgovernment's horrible caring facilities and gets drugged there, that is same aschild who has parents and who is not drugged? Usually, when we have twoopposites, we consider one better than the other. The worse option is apunishment done to the child due to actions of his parents.
Where the hell do you think I live, the UK is reasonably civilised. What the authorities would probably do is place the child in foster care.
No. The definition of punishment cannotinclude the word punishment. Otherwise, we dont need definitions at all. We canjust say: logic is logic, punishment is punishment, crime is crime...
I was defining the type of punishment “society’s punishment,” therefore using the word “punishment” is acceptable.
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@Best.Korea
False. Your disobedience towards God is found in your breaking of his commands. Those commands exist irrelevant of your disbelief, and "you breaking commands" also exists irrelevant of your disbelief.If you are a murderer, not believing in God does not change that.
And if you are a murderer, believing in God doesn’t change the fact that you are a murderer.
So you know your sin before it was even said to you.Abortion is one example.But yes, your society punishes children for the crimes of their parents.If parents dont look after their child, and child ends up being hit by a car and killed, then the child got punished for the crime of his parents.If parents end up in prison, doesnt the child's life become worse if child has no one to take care of him?Didnt it happen before, that CPS take children away from parents and forces children to use psychiatric drugs?Didnt it happen before, that parents are allowed to circumcise their children and society helps them in that?Didnt it happen before, that parents can ruin child's health by feeding him junk food provided by your society?Didnt it happen before, that your society treated orphans very poorly?Didnt it happen before, that children with poor parents are at a disadvantage in your society?Therefore, when God forgives children who are obedient to Him, He indeed has more mercy than your society who forgives no one. And your society is one of the better ones?
None of those examples corresponds to your claim that children are punished for the crimes of their parents. The first is an accident, not a punishment. If parents die and leave a child no crime has been committed. Poverty isn’t a crime. Circumcision isn’t a crime. If parents go to prison, society will try to provided care for that child not punish them.
I would also question what you think constitutes as being “society’s punishment.” Here in the UK the accepted definition would probably be "punishment carried out for wrongdoing by a legal authority."
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The sin is only inherent if children are disobedient to God.
As I don’t believe in God I can’t be disobedient, therefore I am free of sin.
Plus, doesnt your society usually punish children for the crimes of their parents?
No ... And if that question is leading to "abortion," I'm not playing.
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@Stephen
And my point is that -if the bible is to be believed- then the crucifixion was a reality and not just and idea.
I don’t dispute that it may have been a reality, if Jesus had proclaimed to be or was proclaimed to be the messiah, he would probably have been crucified for treason.
I don't agree with " inheriting sin". And the bible/god can't seem to make up his mind about it either. One minute we are punished for the " iniquity of our fathers for generations to come" Exodus 20:5 and the next he appears to change his mind .
Inherent sin is another horrible idea.
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@PREZ-HILTON
I think a lot of people will disagree but eternal damnation isn't biblical. It is mentioned in revelation that the beast gets thrown into some sort of eternal fire but he actually ends up escaping after 1000 years so even that I don't think is eternal but the fire and brimstone stuff was made up by wild southern Baptist preachers looking to put on a show and get butts in seats. They knew them what newspapers know now. Fear sells
These quotes would seem to refer to Hell
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannotkill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body inhell." - Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannotkill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body inhell." - Matthew 10:28
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, butthe righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46
Most moderate Christians have now disassociated themselves fromthe idea of Hell. I know the Anglican Church has.
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"Eternal damnation" is only an idea. We are talking here of the torturous death of a man sentence to death in what must be the biggest miscarriage of justice in all of Christendom. If the bible is to be believed.
I said "I find the concept of eternal damnation far more sickeningly abhorrent." that is the "concept" not a reality.
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@Stephen
What, far more sickening and abhorrent. that being tortured, being beaten senseless, crucified and speared!?
Yes, never ending torture without redemption is far worse.
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@PREZ-HILTON
That's the premise yes. The perfect human otherwise the sacrifice would have been for his own sins, seeing how "the wages of sin is death".
I have no problem with the wages of sin being death, it’s theconcept of eternal damnation I find horrible.
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@Best.Korea
The answer is in the Bible. Jesus willingly died to make the world a better place.
Doesn’t explain why his death would make the world a better place.
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@PREZ-HILTON
Animal sacrifices were a big theme so a sacrifice of a perfect human to end all sacrifices seems like a natural progression
I was thinking of human but if one considers Jesus to be perfect then I suppose he would make the perfect sacrifice.
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@Stephen
What about taking responsibility for your own deeds?
I agree and the main responsibility is to avoid wrong doing in the first place.
The idea that someone else- a stranger and some one I never knew or met- should take it upon himself to be tortured, suffer and die for things I may or may not have done, I find sickeningly abhorrent.
He was resurrected so not much of a sacrifice.
I find the concept of eternal damnation far more sickeningly abhorrent.
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I think the idea is, if you accept Jesus as your saviour then your sins are forgiven and you don’t have to suffer an afterlife of eternal torture.
I am not sure why he had to die though. The dying god who is reborn was originally a pagan concept.
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@zedvictor4
Yep. Best left to the lads next door.
The Kronenbourg is okay not that fond of Stella though.
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My advice, try to avoid doing harm and seek out that which gives you pleasure … life is surprisingly short and getting old sucks.
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@zedvictor4
Kronenbourg and Stella.Perfect for washing down jizz.I would imagine.
I don’t know, not something I have tried, washing down jizz that is, and much as I get on well with the neighbours questions like that would probably be a little too personal.
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The gay couple next door drink mainly Kronenbourg and Stella Artois, my personal favourite is Peroni
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@Best.Korea
Well, for a start, draw the line between atheists and believers.Of course, being more religious is better, but we dont have an exact meassure of who is most religious. However, a simple "I am a believer" works for countries where Christianity is the main religion. Even better is if someone says "I am a Christian". It means it is more likely that those people obey the Bible more than the atheists do.
You asked me if I know the difference between religious and highly religious, drawing a line between atheists and believers hardly explains that difference, as atheists are usually neither religious or highly religious. It would seem that you don’t know the answer either, so I will move on and I hope your beliefs give you fulfillment.
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@Best.Korea
No. Your links were clearly talking about people who were highly religious. Do you know the difference between religious and highly religious?
That there may be levels of orthodoxy but I am not sure where you would draw the line.
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@Best.Korea
From your link:"The countries with the most people reporting no belief in any sort of spirit, god, or higher power are France (40%), Czech Republic (37%), Sweden (34%), Netherlands (30%), Estonia (29%), Germany (27%), Belgium (27%) and Slovenia (26%)."Those are the percentages of atheists, not percentages of believers.
Those are percentages of the population, and they also cover spirituality and a belief in a higher power, my previous links related to a belief specifically in God with a capital G, which signifies the monotheistic God.
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@Best.Korea
So the Christian countries also have the best military?
Back then certainly, although possibly not the best advertisement for a supposed religion of peace.
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@Best.Korea
Did Christianity kill billions of people?In the entire two thousand year history of Christianity, the answer is no.Atheist values managed to kill billions in just 100 years.Atheists like Stalin, Mao and Hitler killed over 100 million people in just couple of decades.Atheists aborted over 1 billion children, therefore committing the biggest mass murder in the entire history of humanity.Atheism doesnt work.No country ever became better from rise in atheism or atheist values.Rise in atheism or rise of atheist values is always being followed by rise in rape, depression, violence, suicides, murders, abortions and castration of children.
That Stalin, Mao and Hitler were able to kill so many people in justcouple of decades is largely down to the availability of modern technology. If therising Christian church had access to such technology they would probably havekilled many more.
Iaccept that Mao and Stalin were atheists although their position was more antitheist. Hitlerhowever is a different matter, as to his personal religious beliefs there issome debate but there is little doubt that he used Christianity the helppromote his antisemitism.
In a 1928 speech Hitler said - "We tolerate no one inour ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity. Our movement isChristian."
In Mein Kampf, Hitler declared, “Hence today I believe thatI am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defendingmyself against the Jews, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
The thing about atheism, it is simple a disbelief in a godor gods there is no political doctrine attached to it. Similar can be said fortheism, it is simply a belief in a god or gods and no religious doctrine need be attachedto it.
That Stalin attacked Christianity was down to Communism and politicisedantitheism.
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@Best.Korea
UK didnt get better during recent increase in atheism.The crime rate got worse, the number of rape cases has doubled. This indicates that atheism still doesnt work.
Try looking up crime in the Victorian era.
I would also suggest looking up the history of Christianity, its rise is steeped in bloodshed and torture and not just of nonbelievers but of other Christians.
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@Best.Korea
many European countries are secular and without a majority belief in God.Wrong. They were built by Christianity. Their leaders were Christians and up until last 10 years their population was Christian by great majority in every case. Therefore, Christianity is what made those countries.Here in the UK only 37% believe there is a God.Yes. Atheism didnt build the UK. In 2010, 70% of UK population was Christian. The UK was built by Christians. Its laws were made by Christians. Its children were raised by Christians. For thousands of years, the territory was Christian. Atheism only became popular in last 5-10 years. Therefore, atheism doesnt get the credit for what Christians built. Christianity gets credit for UK.In France it is 27%No, its 51% Christians.in the Netherlands it is 28%No, its 34%. In 2015, it was 44%. In 2000, it was 68% Christian. The Prime Minister of Netherlands is Mark Rutte. He is a Christian. Christianity created Netherlands.in Belgium 37%No, its 60%.in Finland 33%No, its 70%.in Denmark 28%No, its 75%.and in Sweden 18%No, it is 61%.In the US it is 81%No, it is 65%. The US was built by Christians.The numbers I gave are after the recent rise in atheism. Before the rise in atheism, these countries were Christian by great majority (80% of their population). Today, the Christians are in most cases majority of 60% in countries that are considered best in the world. It was Christians that did the work to build these countries into prosperity.
This is from the link you posted, it states that “the number of people who actually believe in God or who regularly attend church is not addressed.”
The figures I obtained are from here:
This is from the Pew Research Centre that is referenced in your link, it also gives a list relating to country of the percentage of people who say they believe in God with absolute certainty
As to what built the UK,it was technology and a powerful navy. It enabled us to build an empire by attacking weaker countries like India and to impose our supposed Christian ethos on them by force.
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@SkepticalOne
It also depends on what you mean by Christian countries. There is too much wiggle room in this statement to warrant a serious response.
True, from an historical perspective Spain under the Holy Inquisition could be termed a Christian country.
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@Best.Korea
And yet the safest and best countries in the world are Christian countries.I really enjoy watching atheism refute itself. Another victory for the Bible.
Depends what you mean by safest and best, as many European countries are secular and without a majority belief in God.
Here in the UK only 37% believe there is a God. In France it is 27%, in the Netherlands it is 28%, in Belgium 37%, in Finland 33%, in Denmark 28% and in Sweden 18%.
In the US it is 81%.
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@SkepticalOne
Would you say morality is subjective, objective, or some type of hybrid?
Basically a hybrid as you put it. Morality has an evolutionary foundation but beyond that is largely a social construct.
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Morality although it has subjective elements, in that may it vary depending on cultures and beliefs, it also has an objective evolutionary basis and that basis is “empathy,” which is the ability to share someone else's feelings or experiences by imagining what it would be like to be in that person's situation.
We evolved as a tribal species and it was through feelings of empathy that united that tribal group, enabling cooperation so that by working together we were able to hunt large animals and defend ourselves against predators, this effectively placed us at the top of the food chain which in evolutionary terms is about as good as it gets.
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I don’t think his rhetoric would inspire many here in the UK, it makes him look ridiculous. When America voted for him it produced astonishment and derision.
I think it is a cultural thing; Trump is a braggart and Americans seem to see bragging as displaying confidence, competence, being positive and promoting yourself.
Here bragging creates the opposite impression. The person who brags is perceived to be inadequate and insecure and that they brag simply to compensate for their inferiority complex, therefore the braggart is treated with contempt not admiration.
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@Stephen
I am not a conspiracy theorist
I never said you were … I try to avoid personal attacks.
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@Stephen
I was quite surprised when this one hit the headlines for a day. It was probably because it simply couldn't be avoided? i.e every kid in the school knew about it; in turn so did the parents.
You seem to be saying that these events are commonplace but they are not reported because of a cover up.
I have heard that argument before in various contexts. It is the “argument from silence” which is basically an “argument from ignorance.”
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@Stephen
I agree. Odd it is though that these attacks and assaults seem to be the ones that get reported on a regular basis by msm .
I hadn’t noticed, MSN just links to other news sources. There is an article about an elderly Muslim man being set on fire presumably by another Muslim and there is another article about a homeless Albanian man who has been jailed for stalking an 11 year old girl, if that is the sort of thing you are looking for.
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@Stephen
That these events happen is known, there are cases were white people get attacked by black people, Muslims and migrants but there are also cases of black people, Muslims and migrants who are victims of attack by white people but this doesn’t mean that all white people are islamaphobic racists.
We can find examples of wrongdoing from members of any group of people but to use them to malign an entire group is simply “nutpicking.”
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@Stephen
Unless there is any real evidence for the cause of this altercation I can’t comment.
I did find this and from the comments it would suggest that the woman was drunk, she assaulted a train conductor who had to go to hospital and those people are trying to keep her there until the police arrive. How true that is I don’t know.
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@Stephen
This is the guy who posted the video. Mark Collett, a British neo-Nazi, anti-semitic conspiracy theorist and political activist. He was formerly chairman of the Young BNP, the youth division of the British National Party (BNP), and was director of publicity for the party.
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@Stephen
This is the video that the German state and the media DON'T want you to see.The 12-year-old white girl who was MURDERED in Germany was stabbed 32 times after being bullied, humiliated and having her coat and warm clothes removed from her.As you can see, this is a multi-racial gang that contains several migrant girls. No wonder the LYING MEDIA are so desperate to hide the truth!The politicians who have created this 'diverse', 'progressive' and 'tolerant' society have blood all over their hands.There are hundreds of these assaults and murders happening all across Europe committed my migrants. This is past a clash of cultures. Its now a clash of civilisations.
The text accompanying this video is misleading. The video shows a girl being bullied by a group of other girls. The stabbing incident isn’t related to this, it was another girl who was stabbed repeatedly by two other girls who had previously been her friends over some dispute relating to a boy
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I think it is just accent, before I retired my boss was black, he grew up in the UK but his family came from Nigeria. He had a British accent and if you listened to him talk, say on the phone, you would have no idea as to his colour.
Alternately there is this, a video of a white Jamaican gentleman talking.
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@zedvictor4
I am British and I do know that.
I did say for anyone who may be confused and this forum does seem to be predominantly American.
And for sure, we can create interchangeable words and meanings to fit variable situations.
Not as much fun though.
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@PREZ-HILTON
News from the BBC huh? ;)
Yes, it’s a primary news source here in the UK.
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BBC
Financial Times
Independent
Guardian
Financial Times
Independent
Guardian
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@ebuc
Two primary kinds of truth:1} relative --ex sky is blue--- and,2} absolute --ex there exists five and only five, regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedrda of Universe
That is a valid point regarding as to what constitutes a fact or a truth, as mathematics can produce an example of a fact or an indisputable truth.
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@ebuc
Incomplete at best aka less than comprehensively considerate of factors involved, ergo, short changes our intellectual abilities.I think about an occupied space something ---ex finger, toe, baseball etc--- with an occupied space nervous system, ergo, I exist, as an occupied space something, with access to Meta-space mind/intellect/concepts and ego....ebuc
I’m afraid you have lost me with that one.
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