Total posts: 968
Posted in:
Why did an omnipotent God allow 6 million Jews to die, while knowing that many of those victims were whispering begging Him in their final moments.
I've always wondered how Christians can remain convicted of an omnibenevolent God after an event such as WW2, but never gotten a straight answer. On all occasions I have asked this question, I have always received some fluffy stuff about the contrast of evil and good, suffering and whatnot. The following are common answers, all of which are amusingly poor.
GENERAL ANSWER: Without evil, there cannot be good.
Response
- Sure, the good of good can only be appreciated once the opposing feelings have been felt. But surely, the death of 6 million Jews is a bit of an overkill. A large proportion of the Jews themselves, who were likely praying to the every God who did not spare them, were likely decent human beings, many of whom were decent citizens.
- Even if the Holocaust did raise awareness of to evil, it still does not justify the actual event, Jew's are not lab rats who are observed for an outcome.
GOTQUESTIONS.ORG ANSWER: God’s permission is not the same as His approval. God allowed Adam to eat of the forbidden tree, but He did not approve of the action. In the same way, God’s allowing the Holocaust in no way suggests His approval of it.
This seperation of permission and approval is appallingly weak. In fact, in watching the Holocaust happen (how can an all loving being even watch something like this occur..?), God would be committing criminal negligence. He, being the Father of humanity (Proverbs 23:22: "Listen to your father, who gave you life, and do not despise your mother when she is old) has an obligation to care for mankind. Consider the following legal definition of criminal negligence.
Would a reasonable being, who is able to prevent the Holocaust, allow this event to occur? Would this constitute a "great falling short of the standard of care?" Sure sounds like it to me.
Consider the response from gotquestions.org, parallel to my own example.
SETTING: The Holocaust. God is able to prevent this from occurring at no cost.
P1. God did not approve of the Holocaust, he simply gave permission for it to occur.
P2. Therefore, he did not approve of it.
SETTING: A shallow pond. I am able to prevent a child from drowning at no cost.
P1. I did not approve of the child drowning, but I have permission for it to occur.
P2. Therefore, I did not approve of it.
Clearly, for a being to be in the position where they are able to prevent an event from occurring at no cost of their own, their personal view on the emotion can be the only factor which convinces me from doing otherwise. From a realistic point of view, how can God stand watching the Holocaust occur? He knows he can stop it. He knows it will cost him nothing. Why not spare the Jews?
Jehovah’s Witnesses ANSWER:
Myth: It’s wrong to ask why God allowed the Holocaust.
Fact: People of great faith have questioned why God allows evil. For instance, the prophet Habakkuk asked God: “Why do you allow violence, lawlessness, crime, and cruelty to spread everywhere?” (Habakkuk 1:3, Contemporary English Version) Rather than rebuke Habakkuk, God had the questions he asked recorded in the Bible for all to read.
Fact: People of great faith have questioned why God allows evil. For instance, the prophet Habakkuk asked God: “Why do you allow violence, lawlessness, crime, and cruelty to spread everywhere?” (Habakkuk 1:3, Contemporary English Version) Rather than rebuke Habakkuk, God had the questions he asked recorded in the Bible for all to read.
This is literally like me saying, Oh you don't approve of me allowing a child drown? No problem, you can send through a debateart.com question to me via my profile for all to see.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@fauxlaw
Not for a second do I believe every detail of every O.T. event is annotated,
According toe history.com, the Old Testament is the first section of the Bible. Do you not believe in the bible?
So, no, there is no verse specifying that Noah collected DNA samples, or even what to call them in the first place.
Then why make this baseless assumption, when there is no such reason to believe any conversation of this sort occurred? We can never know whether God discussed DNA sampling with Moses (admittedly, this is consistent with the rest of the bible, which never lays any brute, measurable facts), but what we do know for sure is that the bible states, "Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth."
Logically, why assert this DNA theory, when the bible clearly states, "seven pars of every kind of clean animal" which in Layman terms means 7 whole and live animals? Moreover, how can you make an assumption which has literally nothing backing it up? I could easily make some wild, baseless interpretation about some vague verse which could no correlation to what did or didn't happen.
God, himself, may have some other reference name for it in any event.
He may, that is one of an infinite amount of possibilities, none of which are more plausible than their counterparts. What you are asserting has the same plausibility as me saying that there is a teapot floating in the universe. Sure, it is not a logically contradictory statement, but neither can you prove it.
Come on, do you really expect that God only leads us by the nose, or do you think he is more interested that we do some thinking and resolving on our own, with his help when needed?
To truthfully tell your followers that no, the earth is not the centre of the universe is hardly "leading by the nose", it is simply relaying accurate information.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Timid8967
Currently, there are 8.7 species on the planet, however, according to the bible, there were many more than 8.7 billion animals on the ark. Brother has done the maths here
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Well then Thomans, that makes fauxlaw's job of proving the possibility of putting not 87 million animals on a boat, but in fact 139 million and 200 thousand animals on a boat.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@fauxlaw
BY DNA samples instead of the whole animal?
Well no. Genesis 7 : 1 states
"Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
Of course, you are free to interpret whatever you want, but on face value, it would appear that 7 kinds of every bird, male and female, does not mean 7 kinds of DNA samples, it means 7 physical animals.
With God involved, perhaps he taught Noah how to collect the samples, and how to generate new living beings from it. Far-fetched, yes, but impossible?
Please provide a verse which supports that God instructed Noah to collect DNA samples to generate new living beings.
That option is far more likely, but the DNA sampling bit is a possibility.
Another more believable possibility is that perhaps this never happened and that the bible is simply a collection of stories...? If someone told me that a being chucked 8.7 million animals onto a boat to spare them, I wouldn't really view that view too highly.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Nevets
Sorry, I've heard "arch" somewhere and just stuck with it. But I think I have the general gist that God chucked all the animals onto a boat to save or something along those lines.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Crocodile
Also note how the title of the video White soldier charged with assault for shoving, berating Black man in viral video l GMA - YouTube. Why define the two parties by their race unless you are trying to push the "white man bad black man good" agenda? Why not title the video "Tall soldier charged with assault of shoving, berating shorter man in viral video"?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@fauxlaw
Let me make this clear, you believe in God because of a bit of light you see in the dark?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@fauxlaw
When I am in complete darkness, where normal sight is defeated, my faith provides a feint, yellow light from behind my right shoulder, such that I can partially see ahead about three feet faintly. I don't know why, but it's there.
What part of this is supportive of religion or God? How do you know that it is faith providing the link, and not some weird illusion or figment of your imagination.
Created:
-->
@Intelligence_06
Because it's stupid and doesn't actually work. As yourself, if we had a working healthcare system which isn't just a debt scheme, who would have the audacity to oppose it?
Consider the following.
Created:
Posted in:
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@fauxlaw
One can go through a carefully structured thought process, not just by random thought, to have something occur to one.
Though a thought may seem to have come as a result of carefully structed thought, the fact remains that you do not know why you chose to think what you thought at that moment in time.
Second problem: You then launch into this assumption of using Japan and Australia as possible "random" countries to pick, and assume your place in another's [ours] mind, and proceed merrily through a sequence of thinking, and how we might respond to a series of questions about our selection. only, we may not go through the thinking process you suppose is the only possible thought track. Quite simply, you already know what assumptions make of us. Don't think that just because you did not consider we may think differently than you, that our method of thought is not the correct method.
How about I do the experiment on you? Pick a country. Any country.
Third problem: "Well, what other factors can control your movement?" Well, I reply, just the fact that without my moving a muscle, sitting on a park bench, I am already moving with the rotation of the Earth, also moving in its orbit around the Sun, which is, simultaneously and differently, moving in orbit about the center of the galaxy, which, separate and distinct from all previous movements, is in its own course around... whatever.
In what way does the movement of the Earth effect your free will? It isn't as if you control the rotation or velocity of the planet.
RECALL, I STATED: What is outside of your body and disobeys the laws of physics which can affect your choice and movement?
The last time I checked, the movement of the earth obeys the laws of physics.
I just rose from the park bench, went to the airport and flew to Egypt to see the pyramids, a country to which I have never been, but have desired to see as part of my bucket list.
1) Why did my words have such a drastic impact on you? You could have said "well this kid on the internet doesn't know what he's saying" and ignore my statement completely. Why did you choose to react in the way that you did
2) Why Egypt? Why not Japan?
3) Why do pyramids interest you? There are countless other monuments around the world which you could have gone to seen.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@gugigor
I know there's a lot of good example of powerful and persuasive speeches ("I have a dream", "four score and seven years ago", "we will fight on...", etc.) but it's surprisingly difficult to find very top level debates to study on. Other than Jordan Peterson, I don't really know any other famous debaters to learn from. Any suggestions?
Jordan Peterson is good no doubt, but he was completely dismantled by Sam Harris in their live debate at Vancouver. Overall, he's convincing, but some of his religious archetype stuff doesn't have a strong backbone. But against the average SJW, gender pay gap believing feminist, he claps, as is evident in his Cathy Newman interaction.
The cosmicskeptic is good but that may be because he mostly makes videos, meaning that he can have all the time in the world he needs to make a strong argument, unlike Shapiro who just steps up's and bats everyone down spontaneously.
Sam Harris is probably the strongest debater there is around, currently.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
@Tarik
@fauxlaw
Consider the following.
Argument from thought experiment
Pick a random country. Any country. Notice the process that you are going through. Notice how it feels to make a “choice”. Notice that this, if anything, is going to be the freest choice that you make in your life. You have all the countries and all the time you want to pick a country.
Let’s now examine this process. Within the first 3 seconds of being confronted with this question, you were faced with a blank, where nothing occurred to you. After this period of blankness, random countries would pop into your head, and you likely had two or three countries. Let’s say that you had the countries Japan and Australia in mind.
There are two things we can observe at this stage.
1. You cannot think of a country you don’t know
2. You cannot think of a country that didn’t occur to you.
The first is obvious. You can’t think that you don’t know. The second has larger implications that you would think, as everything must occur to you before you can consider it. But by using the term “occurring”, is like saying the thought “crossed my mind” or “dawn on me”. The process of something occurring to me is completely random. I cannot control what occurs to me, that is the nature of something occurring.
You may still be unconvinced. If I were to ask you why Japan and Australia occurred to you, you may say that “I recently ate sushi, so Japan occurred to me”. Notice that Japan occurred to you as a product of a memory of which occurred to you (note that you did not choose for this memory to occur, it just did). The question still remains. Why did that memory occur to you? Well, you may say something like I enjoyed the taste of sushi. Even so, the question still remains, why did enjoyment have that particular effect on you? Why didn’t you think “God, I had some awful Chinese take away a week ago, and that memory occurred to me, so China occurred to me”. Why didn’t China occur to you on the same reasoning?
Nevertheless, psychologists know that if subjects are placed in the hands of a good experimenter exposed to an independent variable, they usually have no idea what is influencing them. If you were to give your business partner a hot beverage to hold as opposed to a cold one, they would more likely cooperate with you and when asked why they did what they did, they would usually, never say “well I was holding a coffee instead of a beer”.
We’ve now established that the countries Japan and Australia occurred to you, for if they didn’t occur to you, you wouldn’t have been able to choose them. Imagine that you chose Japan, and I asked you for justification for your choice. Why choose Australia over Japan? When justifying your choice, you will run into the same issue as before. You may say "Well I've went to Australia a month ago so I decided to choose Australia". The question then becomes why did going to Australia have the effect that it had on you? Why didn't you say "well I went to Australia a month ago, let's go with something else".
==
The argument from determinism
Another thought experiment. If I were to collect every atom in the universe and run it into a simulation which simulates the laws of physics, I could hypothetically predict everything that will ever happen from that point onwards. Why? Well, what other factors can control your movement? What is outside of your body and disobeys the laws of physics which can affect your choice and movement?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tarik
No, all actions occur because of something which happened in the past.
Created:
Posted in:
The Sabbath Day
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8
“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8
“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5
The Permanence of Earth
“… the earth abideth for ever.” — Ecclesiastes 1:4
“… the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” — 2Peter 3:10
Seeing God
“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30
“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18
Human Sacrifice
“… Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God…” — Leviticus 18:21
[In Judges, though, the tale of Jephthah, who led the Israelites against the Ammonoites, is being told. Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory by getting god firmly on his side. So he prayed to god] “… If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering” — Judges 11:30-31
[The terms were acceptable to god — remember, he is supposed to be omniscient and know the future — so he gave victory to Jephthah, and the first whatsoever that greeted him upon his glorious return was his daughter, as god surely knew would happen, if god is god. True to his vow, the general made a human sacrifice of his only child to god!] — Judges 11:29-34
The Power of God
“… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26
“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19
Personal Injury
“…thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ” — Exodus 21:23-25
“…ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” — Matthew 5:39
Circumcision
“This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” — Genesis 17:10
“…if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” — Galatians 5:2
Incest
“Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother…” — Deuteronomy 27:22
“And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter…it is a wicked thing….” — Leviticus 20:17
[But what was god’s reaction to Abraham, who married his sister — his father’s daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12
“And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife…I bless her, and give thee a son also of her…” — Genesis 17:15-16
Trusting God
“A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD…” — Proverbs 12:2
Now consider the case of Job. After commissioning Satan to ruin Job financially and to slaughter his shepherds and children to win a petty bet with Satan. God asked Satan: “Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” — Job 2:3
The Holy Lifestyle
“Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart…” — Ecclesiastes 9:7
“…they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not…” — 1 Corinthians 7:30
Punishing Crime
“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20
“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5
Temptation
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” — James 1:13
“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…” — Genesis 22:1
Family Relationships
“Honor thy father and thy mother…”– Exodus 20:12
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” — Luke 14:26
Resurrection of the Dead
“…he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. ” — Job 7:9
“…the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth….” — John 5:28-29
The End of the World
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ” — Matthew 16:28
“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. ” — Luke 21:32-33
“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” — Romans 13:11-12
“Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” — James 5:8
“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” — 1 John 2:18
“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” — 1 Peter 4:7
Created:
Posted in:
Premise 1 Every human choice or action is driven by past events.
Premise 2 We do not control past events.
Conclusion 1 Human free will does not exist.
From my perspective, the syllogism seems simple to the point where it is irrefutable. What do we think?
Created: