Strike a Blow at Tel Aviv!

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HistoryBuff
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@Vegasgiants
Well you won't answer my direct question 

Why?
because you question has nothing to do with the topic. It's like asking if we should give back Italy to the Romans. They don't exist. Modern natives are like 15 generations removed from the people who actually lived on the land. Since the Americans wiped them out, they don't really exist as a people any more. Also, other people have lived on the land for 200 years. 

In Palestine, this is 100% not the case. Palestinians lived on that land a few decades ago. There are people alive today who were forced off their land by Israeli's with guns. They still own that land, Israel just chooses to ignore that fact and build on it anyway. 

The only way the situation would be similar is if you are saying Israel should exterminate 90% of the Palestinians and keep them enslaved for 200 years. Is that what you are saying?
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@HistoryBuff
Native Americans don't exist?  Holy cow what a racist thing to say.  There are a lot if tribes who would find that offensive

Stolen land is ok....as long as it was a long toime ago?


Very convenient ethics

God forbid YOU give back stolen land
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@HistoryBuff
“The only thing that gives one true ownership of land is the ability to defend it against invaders.”

The israeli's forced them off the land
This sounds like an example of what I just said…

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@Vegasgiants
Stolen land is ok....as long as it was a long toime ago?
no, stolen land is bad. But I can't restore the dead natives to life. And someone 15 generations removed has a very weak claim to land. Genocide is bad, but sadly, 200 years ago it was a common practice. Today we don't allow it.

The Palestinians who own that land are still alive. Or if not, their children or grand children are. You are making an argument that the horrible, genocidal practices humans used centuries ago should be repeated in the modern day. That is horrifying and evil. 

But again, if the Israeli's don't negotiate and deal with the underlying issues, then this conflict will go on forever. They are guaranteeing permanent war and terrorism. Since Israel is the one occupying and imprisoning the Palestinians, they are the ones who need to make concessions to resolve the conflict. 
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@cristo71
This sounds like an example of what I just said…
if that is your position, then you are only justifying what the Palestinians are doing. If might makes right, then terrorism to regain their land by force is right, isn't it?

Luckily, we live in a world with rules based order. Redrawing maps through violence is not how we should be doing things. Letting israel do this only guarantees more violence and instability. The US should have dealt with this years ago by telling them to make a deal or have all support and funding cut. The only reason Israel can afford to undermine peace efforts is because the US is guaranteeing their safety, which allows them to derail any solutions forever, without consequences. 
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@HistoryBuff
But you could give the stolen land back.


But you wont


Only Israelis have to do that


How convenient 
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@Vegasgiants
But you could give the stolen land back.
to who? the people who "owned" it died 200 years ago. That isn't remotely the same thing.

Only Israelis have to do that
the people who own the land are still alive. And they are imprisoned in a giant open air prison while the israeli's cut off their food and medicine. So yes, sadly the 2 things are very similar. America committed a genocide 200 years ago, Israel is trying to carry one out now.

Since guilt over the holocaust is one of the main reasons people support Israel, I wonder how the world will look at them when they commit one even worse that the Germans?

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@HistoryBuff
if that is your position, then you are only justifying what the Palestinians are doing. If might makes right, then terrorism to regain their land by force is right, isn't it?
No, terrorism is not a means with which to annex land. How much land has Hamas gained via terrorism, for example?

I’m not buying your earlier claim that you believe Hamas and the Israeli government are equally “evil,” by the way. Clearly, you wish to indicate that Israel is guilty of greater wrongdoing, and that the burden is on Israel to peacefully resolve this rather than Hamas.

Hamas wishes for the eradication of Jews and the Jewish nation. That wish was on full display last weekend. You seem to think that wish can be peacefully resolved somehow?
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@HistoryBuff
Got it.  Ancestors deserve nothing when land is stolen.  So in another decade Palestinians will be owed nothing 

How many Palestinians were alive in 1947?

According to you only they are owed land

Just wait long enough.....and you get your ethics
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@cristo71
No, terrorism is not a means with which to annex land. How much land has Hamas gained via terrorism, for example?
you argument was that if you can take something by force, it's yours. If terrorism (a kind of force) helps them to do that, then by your logic it is justified. In this case it seems like it will derail Israeli attempts to improve relations with the Saudi's and other arab countries. 

I’m not buying your earlier claim that you believe Hamas and the Israeli government are equally “evil,” by the way. Clearly, you wish to indicate that Israel is guilty of greater wrongdoing, and that the burden is on Israel to peacefully resolve this rather than Hamas.
I do think they are equally evil. The difference is that Israel has all the power in this situation. They are the ones running the prison. they are the ones stealing the land. They are the ones who could end the conflict by negotiating with the Palestinians. Hamas can't do anything other than fight. They could fight in less shitty, evil ways. But they can't do anything else. Israel very much could, but wont. 

Hamas wishes for the eradication of Jews and the Jewish nation. That wish was on full display last weekend. You seem to think that wish can be peacefully resolved somehow?
of course they do. Israel has been treating them like shit for decades. They are angry. And the leaders of Hamas probably won't ever stop being angry. But Hamas is only in a position of power because they have support. They have support because Palestinians don't have any other options. There is no peaceful resolution because Israel will not allow it. The only way this ends is with Israel making concessions to resolve the conflict, or by the forceful extermination or expulsion of the Palestinians. The Israeli plan seems to drag this out for as long as possible, then forcefully expel the Palestinians and kill any who refuse.  Their demand that over a million Palestinians leave, with nowhere to go, in 24 hours seems to further prove this point. 
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@Vegasgiants
Just wait long enough.....and you get your ethics
got it, your argument is that genocide worked for america so you want Israel to commit genocide too. That is evil. And thinking like that is why the west should stop supporting israel. 

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@HistoryBuff
Any Palestinian that owned land in 1947 would be 94 today (they would have to be at least 18).

If America stole land by genocide ....then do the moral thing and give your house back
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@Vegasgiants
If America stole land by genocide ....then do the moral thing and give your house back
this is just sad. You want sooo badly to just exterminate them or keep them enslaved forever, but you can't quite come out and say it. You have to hide behind ancient history to imply that's what you want, but refuse to come out and say you are all for genocide. You're evil, just come out and say it. Be proud of your evil.
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@HistoryBuff
He is saying the difference between moral and immoral is a few decades.
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@HistoryBuff
This is sad.  You hate jews so much you want the state of Israel exterminated

Just say it


You think Hitler should have finished the job
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@Greyparrot
Have you given your house back yet?
ponikshiy
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@HistoryBuff
Let's put it this way, let's say your country were invaded by an evil 3rd party. They enslave your people, steal your land, leave your children on the brink of starvation
The fact you have this view and yet your name is history buff is crazy. Request the site owner change your name because this shows a complete lack of understanding the situation. 
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@Vegasgiants
No, because the world operates on might makes right, and wars have consequences.

That's why nations have standing armies and borders change after a war to end the war.

The ONLY reason why Hamas is allowed to artificially exist is because Israel refuses to exercise might to end that evil on the Earth. In my opinion, a nation that refuses to eliminate genocidal enemies deserves to have their children beheaded. Go woke, get smoked.
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@Greyparrot
Cool.  Then Israel is right


Thanks
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@cristo71
I’m not buying your earlier claim that you believe Hamas and the Israeli government are equally “evil,” by the way. Clearly, you wish to indicate that Israel is guilty of greater wrongdoing, and that the burden is on Israel to peacefully resolve this rather than Hamas.
They are putting greater burden on Israel for the same racist reasons liberals always play this game 

They subconsciously feel that Palestinians are inherently barbaric and that the Israelis are a civilized people and so think the civilized people should have a greater responsibility.  It's the reason you can see Hamas torture both Israelis and Palestinians and people like history buff will claim it is okay because they were persecuted. (Any action becomes okay if a group is weak, which is why thy were okay with BLM riots and looting) . Meanwhile if Israel makes some ugly decisions because they need to preserve as much life as possible against a group who is suicidal, who uses human shields and commits many more war crimes than the Israelis are in the wrong.

Notice there is no solutions proposed so I guess we are to believe that Israel is supposed to just let Hamas and other groups like ISIS just start murdering and raping their civilians indiscriminately.  
HistoryBuff
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@Vegasgiants
This is sad.  You hate jews so much you want the state of Israel exterminated
lol, I want Israel to negotiate and actually resolve the conflict. That will involve giving back alot of stolen land that Israeli's built settlements on. Then both Palestinians and Israeli's might actually be able to be free. 

You just want to Palestinians to either accept being slaves or die. You are in favor of extermination, based on your answers, I am in favor of a negotiated solution. 
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@ponikshiy
What do you think of my post?
FLRW
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Explosions of violence never just happen. Since 2007, Gazans have lived under siege, prohibited from leaving their open-air prison by a high-security militarized wall and platoons of Israeli soldiers.
Well before the latest escalation, the transit of most goods was banned. Gazans couldn’t get construction materials to repair the apartment blocks, power plants, water treatment facilities, hospitals, schools, mosques and churches that Israel bombed repeatedly — in 2008, 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2021.
Emergency medical permits were often denied, leaving many Gazans to die without care.
Electricity was already limited. A 72-year-old woman in Gaza told a reporter last January, “It is hard to imagine, but we used to experience 24 hours of electricity each day in Gaza; now we are lucky if we get six.”
Water was already unavailable except for expensive purchases from Israeli water companies. And food has long been scarce — by the age of 2, 20 percent of Gaza’s children are already stunted.

cristo71
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@HistoryBuff
you argument was that if you can take something by force, it's yours. If terrorism (a kind of force) helps them to do that, then by your logic it is justified. In this case it seems like it will derail Israeli attempts to improve relations with the Saudi's and other arab countries. 
No, I said that the only real way you “own” land is through your ability to defend it from invaders. I don’t see the word “justified” in there. And as I said, terrorism alone is a poor way to conquer land.

I do think they are equally evil. The difference is that Israel has all the power in this situation. They are the ones running the prison. they are the ones stealing the land. They are the ones who could end the conflict by negotiating with the Palestinians. Hamas can't do anything other than fight. They could fight in less shitty, evil ways. But they can't do anything else. Israel very much could, but wont. 
Ah, you are a “power structure” person. In that case, I still call BS because you are essentially concluding this: evil + power > evil + terror tactics presumably done out of desperation. If Palestinians had all the power, there would be no Jews. As things stand now, there are Palestinians in the IDF.

Hamas runs the prison, actually. They say whether people leave or not. They use their own populace as cannon fodder. It’s no wonder their death tolls are so high. Muslims put more hope in the next paradise-like life than this one.

of course they do. Israel has been treating them like shit for decades.
Oh, so you think their virulent antisemitism is largely justifiable. Antisemitism predates the modern state of Israel. When the country was created after WWII and the partitioning was going to be negotiated, the Arab League boycotted the negotiation. Their lot hasn’t improved as a result. Palestinian leaders are loathe to compromise, and they refuse to recognize the Jewish state. It constitutes sort of a non starter in good faith negotiations.
Vegasgiants
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@HistoryBuff
I get to decide what your position is like you do for me


You hate jews and want Israel exterminated


Now you don't like that but feel it's ok to state my position for me

I don't support genocide.  I support peace


That comes with unconditional surrender by the terrorists
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@ponikshiy
The fact you have this view and yet your name is history buff is crazy. Request the site owner change your name because this shows a complete lack of understanding the situation. 
I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not saying this is a 100% accurate description of how I see it, I'm saying that this is how many Palestinians see it. and if you were in their position you would probably see it that way too. Israel has done horrible, inhumane things to the Palestinians. Palestinians have also done horrible inhumane things to Israeli's, to be clear. But only israel has the ability to actually resolve the situation since they hold all the ground, they keep palestinians in a giant open air prison. As long as Israel refuses to actually negotiate, war and terrorism are unavoidable. 
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@FLRW
Well I guess the beheading of babies was justified then 
HistoryBuff
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@Vegasgiants
I get to decide what your position is like you do for me
I didn't decide your position. You made an argument that the situation was like that of natives in north america. That situation was resolved by genocide. I told you that and asked you to clarify and you just kept repeating the situation was the same. The only logical conclusion is that you are looking for the same thing here. 

You hate jews and want Israel exterminated
nope, I have explicitly said the opposite. You on the other hand just keep comparing it to genocide. 

I don't support genocide.  I support peace
yes, peace through eternal slavery. Which inevitably leads to violence and terrorism when the slaves rise up. Your "solution" is exactly what Israel has been doing for decades. It is what has led us here.
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@HistoryBuff
You lie.  I never said I support genocide.  That is your interpretation 


Here is mine


You hate jews
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@ponikshiy
I do get your point as to how liberals have very racist reasoning by thinking it's okay for Palestinians to be barbaric. They have violent genes as evidenced from their skin color, therefore, they are excused when they behead babies.