This fucking site.

Author: drafterman

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#91
drafterman
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@bsh1
You are calling here then for the elimination of MEEPs. Correct or not?
Yes, I think the stupid process I called out as stupid and have repeatedly referred to as an abomination and voted against should be eliminated. Shocker, I know.

Let me repeat:
Let me repeat: if you don't want to actually do the job of a moderator, step down.
#92
Raltar
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@Castin
...one of the most heated complaints from members is that mods are heavy-handed and oppressive tyrants...
Again; I already pointed out that I don't buy this claim. Mods keep saying that people make this complaint, but I can't find anyone who actually IS making this complaint, other than a handful of obviously simplistic trolls from a few months back.

The real complaint is a lack of consistency. Some rules are enforced, some aren't. Some users get punished, some don't. Some posts get deleted, some don't. Sometimes moderators say the CoC is the only set of rules, some times they make up stuff from outside the CoC. Some people seem to get smacked down for minor stuff, while others are able to run amok with obvious trolling as their only contribution to the site. Emphasis on the forums is wayyyyy too heavy, while debates seem entirely unmoderated, comment sections dissolve into borderline psychotic hissy-fits and votes get randomly deleted for subjective reasons. The whole site is a s--tshow of random and unpredictable enforcement in a sea of endless trolling.

I laid out what I believe the objections we all agree upon are, and as of yet nobody has disputed any of those, nor has any convincing rebuttal from any moderator made an appearance.
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#93
drafterman
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@Vader
Oh cmon my guy. If some random dude over the internet called you a cunt would you REALLY want the post deleted versus someone saying that to you head on

It could be me being thick skinned on the internet because idrc about it, but I think people would brush off someone calling them a cunt
Depends on the forum. There are some fora where that is acceptable and some where it is not. Based on the rules of this site, it is not.
#94
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Yes, I think the stupid process I called out as stupid and have repeatedly referred to as an abomination and voted against should be eliminated. Shocker, I know
Should any and all deliberative processes (even a majority vote process) that allow the community to have a say in how the COC is enforced and/or interpreted be eliminated?

#95
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IRISH CHICAGO: In the Chicago Fire, the rumor was Mrs. O'Leary's (Irish) cow knocked over a lantern and got the barn on fire and she couldn't put it out, causing the city to go into the flames. That is a cover up story to the actual fact that big businesses and rich Germans were polluting the air causing a dry summer and a fire to spew that was not started by O'Leary

BLACKS-AMERICANS: We have blamed blacks back then for stealing our childrens purity, increase in crime. Even today, we tend to scapegoat them for gang violence

@RM
#96
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@drafterman
Which forum was it though that would mark it as unruly
#97
bsh1
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comment sections dissolve into borderline psychotic hissy-fits
Comments are the most unreported category of reportable things. It would be great if more people reported comments so that mods can deal with them. Mods can't moderate what they can't see.
#98
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@bsh1

#99
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@Vader
drafterman is correct that it is a directed personal attack, but I agree with you and with bish that it's doing no harm such that it needs to be deleted.
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#100
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@bsh1
Unless your stance is to actually enforce the rules, I fail to see the purpose in soliciting any input via any method.

#101
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@Vader
Lol
#102
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@Vader
I think that the reason it was so severely unclear what you meant is that the Jews were blamed pre-abuse and scapegoated entirely "pre", the Irish were scapegoated in such a tinier IDK wtf that situation is, and the blacks are in a much murkier scenario where it's two way blaming.

It was extremely intuitive to read what you wrote as the Jews, blacks and Irish all being the ones playing the blame game with BLM and antisemite "you deserved the Holocaust because of Israel" infantile logic that some right wing conspiracy theorists use, who don't know that Alex Jones was controlled opposition (still is, even more so) etc.
#103
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@Castin
Yes it was a direct attack and I am not denying that. I don't see the legitimacy of taking down a post for a stupid word that was written by someone over the internet

#104
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@RM

You make a fair case. I'll try to organize it better so that scenario does not happen with someone else intuitive 
#105
Vader
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@Castin
I think it is just me and others don't see eye to eye

If someone in real life called me a cunt I wouldn't care and just laugh it off or not care, let alone the internet
I would honestly laugh if someone called me a cunt over the internet. The first response was me laughing bc I thought it to be funny

#106
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Unless your stance is to actually enforce the rules, I fail to see the purpose in soliciting any input via any method.
This is a reversal of your position in the first thread I linked you, where you strongly supported such a process. Moreover, by suggesting I rule by fiat, you are, at the same time, suggesting that the community have no input in the rules which govern it. The community may not have voted for the COC, but such a process gives them more input than it seems you would entitle it to have. 

Moreover, the rules--as in the site's own, written COC--don't require the deletion of offensive or rules-violating conduct. The notion that I am not enforcing the rules is therefore absurd. It is precisely that this is an unanswered question which shows the value in community deliberative processes: to allow the community rather than the mods to clarify these grey areas. You would give me the power to decide grey areas unilaterally, which shows your own hypocrisy. You don't want community input, but you also want to have a say in how these grey areas are policed.

Your arguments here a literally absurd. This bitching against deliberation just seems like sour grapes after you didn't get your way on the MEEP process and your bitching against deleting threads, which you did, strikes me as similar. Calm down and participate in the MEEP process when it's held after Christmas (probs early January).
#107
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...unreported category of reportable things. It would be great if more people reported...
I report a lot of stuff that either doesn't ever got looked at (just stays flagged forever) or is eventually marked "all reports have been handled" without any apparent action having been taken.

Plus, the limit of reporting 10 things a day is pretty restrictive. I could report every violation I see and run out of reports in about ten minutes.

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#108
drafterman
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@bsh1
Like I said, if youre just going to assume my answers, don't fucking ask the questions.
#109
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I report a lot of stuff that either doesn't ever got looked at (just stays flagged forever) or is eventually marked "all reports have been handled" without any apparent action having been taken. 
Action may not have been deemed appropriate in some of those cases. If conduct (not votes) have been flagged for more than a few days, please reach out to a mod and notify them that the report has not been addressed.

#110
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I support myself to be head mod. Give me a trial run and see the beauty.
#111
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@RM

We would all support ourselves lol
#112
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Action may not have been deemed appropriate in some of those cases.
Which, I beleive, brings us full circle back to drafterman's current profile picture and the topic of this thread.

Despite the hypothetical story that people are mad at the mods for being too harsh, I'm seeing the exact opposite complaint very consistently throughout this thread and all other currently active threads.

Most people seem to want more moderation, but also consistent moderation. Instead of seeing the same people get slapped with temp bans every week, lets try heading the problem off at the pass by just deleting obvious troll posts and unnecessary personal attacks when they happen.

I'll differ with drafterman in that I'm not opposed to having a MEEP to discuss altering this policy. But a MEEP may be pointless if it just degrades into a massive argument thread.

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#113
drafterman
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@bsh1
If you are at all interested in my actual position, allow me to state it clearly, for the record:

1. The job of the moderator is to enforce the rules of the site. This necessarily includes eliminating violating content and restricting the actions of violators.
2. #1 is independent and separate from what the rules actually are, how they are determined, and how they are changed.
3. If you are unwilling to do #1, you shouldn't be a moderator.
4. The opinions of people regarding #1 are irrelevant and not a factor. If you are worried that you won't win most popular member because of #1, then you shouldn't be a moderator.
5. The majority impact of the moderator comes not through their discretionary powers (though there is some impact from this) but through what the rules are in the first place (this is a position I have consistently held). There should be a minimal (though necessarily non-zero) "judgement calls." Individual mod personality shouldn't be a factor. They should simply be human robots implementing a policy. Any issues with that should be considered issue with the policy itself, not the moderators.
6. Mods should not change or dictate moderation policy unilaterally. There are many ways of implementing the change process. The only person who should change policy unilaterally is the site owner.
7. Public referrenda can provide useful information, and if they are used, should be majority only, no participation thresholds.
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#114
drafterman
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@Raltar
The MEEP process is pointless because of its arbitrary thresholds to get anything done
#115
Raltar
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@Vader
We would all support ourselves lol
Despite the common pirate theory that "every pirate only ever votes for himself," there are some of us who have learned the burden of leadership is not always desirable.

I don't envy the mods who have to handle this mess. Which is part of why I think a better blocking feature, allowing users to delete their own content and adding more automated restrictions would greatly alleviate the need for moderation by giving more user control to block out the trolls.
#116
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@Raltar
Very true. But to a certain degree, some people would believe they WOULD do better
#117
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If only there was some possible way of knowing that moderation standards would become more lax if people pilloried the moderators for weeks for being too harsh. This has al come right out of the blue.

#118
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@RM fuck no. You gripe about bsh selectively banning people despite you being downright toxic and rightfully banned, but then you want to actually be the head mod as if you would be any better, especially in that regard? The only difference would be that the switch is flipped and users like me and Resurget would be banned, probably indefinitely. There is no improvement despite this baseless notion that you are "actually a respectful, rational" guy and these things just leave your mind. That was proven time and time again to be false. 

Not to mention that you would not be laissez faire to any degree. You are the type of person who would insert themselves into personal scuffles and "bite back" at them, rather than handle it maturally. 

I agree that our current one isn't ideal, but what we need is someone who like bsh who maybe has a better sense of who gets banned (not defending you) and how long it should be (hence ND2 getting only banned for 4 days), not some psycho that has PTSD when recalling his DDO days and doxxes people.

#119
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@Raltar
...one of the most heated complaints from members is that mods are heavy-handed and oppressive tyrants...
Again; I already pointed out that I don't buy this claim. Mods keep saying that people make this complaint, but I can't find anyone who actually IS making this complaint, other than a handful of obviously simplistic trolls from a few months back.

The real complaint is a lack of consistency. Some rules are enforced, some aren't. Some users get punished, some don't. Some posts get deleted, some don't. Sometimes moderators say the CoC is the only set of rules, some times they make up stuff from outside the CoC. Some people seem to get smacked down for minor stuff, while others are able to run amok with obvious trolling as their only contribution to the site. Emphasis on the forums is wayyyyy too heavy, while debates seem entirely unmoderated, comment sections dissolve into borderline psychotic hissy-fits and votes get randomly deleted for subjective reasons. The whole site is a s--tshow of random and unpredictable enforcement in a sea of endless trolling.

I laid out what I believe the objections we all agree upon are, and as of yet nobody has disputed any of those, nor has any convincing rebuttal from any moderator made an appearance.
The post of mine you partially quoted was noting that there are complaints that mods are too strict and complaints that mods are not as strict as they ought to be. The too-strict complaints are real enough.


That was just from a cursory sweep, forgive my laziness. I could probably do better if I took more time to plumb. Anyway, as for the rest of your complaints, give me some specifics and examples. I'm willing to listen if you're willing to explain something you've probably already explained before. I can't promise talking with me will satisfy you any more than talking to the other mods did, though.

But regarding emphasis on the forums: Your attitude about the forums has been dismissive in the past, iirc. I just have a basic disagreement with your desire to minimize the forums.
#120
RationalMadman
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@kingladdy
Interesting. Gonna just click a flag somewhere and not reply to that nonsensical abuse.