(IFF) Free-Will is True (THEN) what?

Author: 3RU7AL

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Ehyeh
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@3RU7AL
Well, I would say what is the "best" move is rather subjective. Maybe moral arguments such as that work against a Christian or Abrahamic god. Not so much as other hypothetical conceptions. I, for instance, don't believe in good or bad, in the common sense most people seem to. I don't put prescriptions on what God creates as necessarily "better". Its certainly not hypocritical to imagine he does either. What he creates as the best may change infinitely. 
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@Ehyeh
Well, I would say what is the "best" move is rather subjective.
not if you know for certain what the outcome is and your goal is winning the game (or manifesting an optimal conclusion)

Maybe moral arguments such as that work against a Christian or Abrahamic god. Not so much as other hypothetical conceptions. I, for instance, don't believe in good or bad, in the common sense most people seem to. I don't put prescriptions on what God creates as necessarily "better". Its certainly not hypocritical to imagine he does either. What he creates as the best may change infinitely. 
how is god a "he" ?

also, if god has no preference for outcomes, at what point does this god have a "will" ?
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Well im saying gods preference could change infinitely. Maybe he does have a best solution within that moment, but its only the objectively right course of action from one perspective, but from another perspective another way of acting is the best way, therefore god experiments with them all infinitely, as they're all infinitely as good as one another. I also like to think of time as not linear, but existing all at once, therefore god could experience past, present, future all at once, making all decisions at once. That doesn't mean he didnt actually make those decisions, as in reality all that exists for him is the present, he is simply present within all tenses.
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I of course don't think god is a he, i just see no issue with using he as a placeholder, it feels strange to me.  
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@Ehyeh
therefore god experiments with them all infinitely
this god has no set goal and therefore no will

or doesn't know what they are doing

I also like to think of time as not linear, but existing all at once,
which makes "free-will" little more than a joke

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do you not believe there can be aspects to a truth, or multiple moral truths? I don't think truth has to be black and white, where something is either true or untrue, something can be partly true, partly true without error even, but not the whole truth. It seems to me that two people can have correct assessments of a situation, person or thing, while their perspectives are polar opposites, its only when we synthesise the two do we find a more complete truth. This could arguably go on ad infininitum. Is there a limit to the body of knowledge, and therefore truth? the philosophy you promote seems to think "yes", to that answer. 
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please explain the logic of "free-will" ?

at what point are your actions free of previous influence ?
Your actions are free from influence when they are made without being forced or coerced.
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please explain the logic of "free-will" ?

at what point are your actions free of previous influence ?
Your actions are free from influence when they are made without being forced or coerced.
your actions are influenced by many factors you probably don't even notice

and very few of these qualify as overt "force" or coercion
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@Ehyeh
do you not believe there can be aspects to a truth, or multiple moral truths? I don't think truth has to be black and white, where something is either true or untrue, something can be partly true, partly true without error even, but not the whole truth. It seems to me that two people can have correct assessments of a situation, person or thing, while their perspectives are polar opposites, its only when we synthesise the two do we find a more complete truth. This could arguably go on ad infininitum. Is there a limit to the body of knowledge, and therefore truth? the philosophy you promote seems to think "yes", to that answer. 
there is a very clear line between QUANTA and QUALIA

REAL-TRUE-FACTS must be Quantifiable, empirically demonstrable, and or Logically-Necessary (QUANTA)

OPINION on the other hand, is experiential, personal, gnostic, unfalsifiable, and qualitative (QUALIA)

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@3RU7AL
Your actions are free from influence when they are made without being forced or coerced.
your actions are influenced by many factors you probably don't even notice

and very few of these qualify as overt "force" or coercion
“Free from influence” is not referring to the inner workings of the mind and what if anything is causing us to make the decisions we do. We’re physical beings living in a physical universe, so of course there is always some explanation beyond that which we recognize on the surface.

When we talk about having control over our actions, the only concept we can apply is that which aligns with human experience. Anything beyond that is purely made up.



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When we talk about having control over our actions, the only concept we can apply is that which aligns with human experience. Anything beyond that is purely made up.
so, basically, if you "feel free" then you "are free" ?

even if there is no way to QUANTIFY this "freedom" ?

do children have "free-will" (and as such are solely and fully morally responsible for their actions) ?

(IFF) children do not have "free-will" (THEN) at what point do they receive it ?

how can "free-will" be measured and or verified scientifically ?

do dogs have "free-will" ?

does a spider have "free-will" ?
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@3RU7AL
so, basically, if you "feel free" then you "are free" ?
I said nothing close to that.

even if there is no way to QUANTIFY this "freedom" ?

do children have "free-will" (and as such are solely and fully morally responsible for their actions) ?

(IFF) children do not have "free-will" (THEN) at what point do they receive it ?

how can "free-will" be measured and or verified scientifically ?

do dogs have "free-will" ?

does a spider have "free-will" ?
Is there a point to this? Because all you’re doing is pretending that if we don’t have specific objectively verifiable answers to every little detail we must throw our hands up in the air. Nothing about dealing with human behavior works like this, and we manage just fine.
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@3RU7AL
I've always found the free will conversation pointless. If we have it then it's settled, we can all move on. If we don't have it then not only does that change nothing, but it means that what we're actually talking about is something that no human being has ever experienced so we have no basis to point to it because we have no recognition of what we're even pointing to.
this topic is fundamental

because it is the core of nearly all human suffering

if you deny causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because without causality, your actions don't necessarily lead to specific consequences

if you embrace causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because with causality, your actions are caused by previous events

and if you mix the two, sometimes causality and sometimes not causality, then you can never be sure which events are caused and which are uncaused

if you decide a specific event is uncaused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot cause (with your free-will) an uncaused event

if you decide a specific event is caused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot (with your free-will) cause all of the contributing causes that lead to any caused event

sure, people "experience" free-will, but only in the way they "experience" "god's love"

you can "feel" it, but that doesn't mean it is anything more than a mere emotion
Xeno’s paradox does not prove that motion is impossible, and your simplistic semantic parlor game’s false dichotomy does not refute the existence of free will by anything resembling logic or reason. Your argument that reality is either universally determined or universally random is nonsense, the refutation of determinism does not eliminate causality as a feature of reality, it simply is not true that if the universe isn’t totally deterministic then it is totally random, and that is the basis of your argument.

The attempt to deny the self-evident experiential reality of human consciousness and the associated fact that we are morally responsible causal agents is a very extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the unfounded and completely faith-based belief in determinism doesn’t constitute extraordinary evidence by any stretch of the imagination.

The strongest argument for the existence of free will is that we all observe it during every conscious moment, it is a fundamental and significant part of our experiential reality at all times, hence it is self-evident, a brute fact.  Consequently, the denial of free will is necessarily a rejection of the very concept of empirical evidence, and the argument against Free Will becomes a rejection without “proof”, which eliminates induction as valid. These two aspects of the approach clearly reject the very basis of science and scientific knowledge, leaving nothing but detached abstractions that have nothing whatsoever to do with the real world. 

Philosophy is concerned with saying something which is true or significant, science with doing something which is effective. Science is about the real world, grounded in perceiving and doing, the argument against Free Will is completely abstract and invalidates both perception and doing, it is a complete rejection of science as valid, and philosophically it amounts to a rejection of the very basis of truth and significance. Refuting free will leaves no basis whatsoever for a valid argument, for logic, for philosophy, for truth, and for meaning, hence it is meaningless, a pointless word game.

In the end, there is no valid basis upon which the rejection of Free Will can be said to be true of reality.
 
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@3RU7AL
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
the power of acting without the constraint of [CAUSALITY] necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion [FREE FROM ALL INFLUENCE].
You can't define free will out of existence either.

What the centuries old free will debate is about is determining just what it is that people have been talking about for over 2,500 years when they use the term free will, and then determining whether or not we have it.  Providing a contextual definition and then running with it to determine if we actually possess it is the whole point of the free will debate. Anything else is changing the subject.
 
The real free will debate is about whether we have the cognitive ability to conceive of future courses of action, deliberate about various reasons for choosing among them, determine our actions on the basis of such deliberation, and control our actions despite the presence of competing desires. If we do have these abilities, and we can exercise these cognitive abilities to act without our actions being unreasonably compromised by external pressure, then we possess free will and human beings are morally responsible causal agents.
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@3RU7AL
Causality is not fate or necessity.
Causality is simply cause and effect.
the idea of fate does not exist without cause-and-effect

cause-and-effect makes every event not only inevitable but also necessary
Physical determinism is not logically valid because physical science is an empirical endeavor, not a logically conclusive process and the physical evidence has never justified the assumption of determinism by any stretch of the imagination.  This is the misrepresentation of inductive logic as deductive logic. Determinism is a working hypothesis that is logically useful for the scientific endeavor in practice, but it is not a conclusion of science. On the contrary, science has rejected the idea of reality being materialistic and deterministic for over a hundred years now.  The old idea that Newtonian physics translates into a mechanistic and deterministic model of the universe was never demonstrated. Science has not established the causal closure of the material world and pretty much has abandoned any further attempts to do so. Relativity theory and quantum physics has shown that ultimately, reality is not deterministic, it is probabilistic and contingent as far as science is concerned. 
Sidewalker
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@3RU7AL
I don't think we need to think in black and white terms in regards to free will, we can have free will to act in some circumstances,
i hesitate to make broad statements here, but some seem to be suggesting that nobody is arguing that a human decision is free from all previous influences. i think this is a fair statement. the best attempts at explaining free-will seem to suggest that there is some kind of influence-gap. that is to say, it has been suggested that a human decision is influenced up to some unknown point less than 100% and then there is some i-gap of unspecified quantity and free-will lives there spreading magic fairy dust, however small or improbable that i-gap might be. i have never heard anyone propose a way to measure this i-gap in order to perhaps somehow gauge how much free-will someone might have, or to figure out if children have it, and if not, when do they get it? the i-gap sounds to me more like an ignorance-of-influence gap (this would also seem like the compatibilist's opinion). if this is the case we should be able to dial up free-will by dialing up ignorance.

the main problems i see with this proposal are as follows:

1) there is no way to measure the influence-gap. it is in all likelihood merely a knowledge-of-influence-gap or lack-of-precision-gap.

2) even if the influence-gap is considered to be a real thing, wouldn't that gap simply increase the value of the other influences? how could the influence gap possibly be considered an influence? it's a gap that is by definition non-influential.

3) let's consider based on at least a small shred of logic, what could be in that pesky i-gap that might actually be an influence. well, whatever is in that i-gap can't be influenced since it is inside something defined as an influence-gap. so maybe there's an uninfluenced-influence in that i-gap; we could call it something mysterious like, an uncaused-cause, or maybe a first-cause, or better yet ex-nihilo. could that uncaused-cause be influenced or originated by anything at all? no, of course not because it's in the i-gap and it is defined as being uncaused. so could a human take credit for a decision or action that emerged from the i-gap? how could they possibly take credit or be responsible for something they had no conceivable control over? anything emerging from the i-gap would be indistinguishable from a random event. and randomness is incompatible with choice.

4) but what if it's the essence of "me" that is in the i-gap. are you kidding me?! i don't care if it's your grandmother, your dead child, or your ever lovin' god. if you put them in the i-gap they are at-best indistinguishable from random noise and at worst non-existent.

5) what if the gap is not an influence-gap but instead a black box? if the gap is not an influence-gap, there is no place for mr. free-will to spread his magic fairy dust because the gap instantly fills with influence and is then no longer properly described as a gap. additionally if the output of the i-gap is non-random, that is to say it emits some identifiable pattern, then whatever is happening in the i-gap must have some way of knowing what the hell is going on outside of the i-gap and this knowledge is definitely influencing its output thereby introducing influence into the i-gap which would then promptly disappear in a cute little puff of logic.

i think it's important to fully comprehend this influence-gap. imagine, if you will, that i am constructing a human being. when the recipe calls for me to add "a dash of free-will" i can't just add any old thing, willy nilly; i have to first construct a proper influence-gap to protect my human from the evil determinism. this would be some container that is impervious to all conceivable influence. i probably have a sound-proof, shock-proof, opaque, air-tight, empathy-proof, magic-proof, momentum-proof, time-proof capsule of some sort just laying around my house, i'll just set that to the side for now. ok, adding an empty box to the mix isn't going to do anything of course so we have to put something in it. since whatever is in this i-gap is supposed to advise me on important moral decisions my selection is of critical importance. well, the most intelligent and moral person i know of is my friend george, so since i don't seem to have a better option, i throw george in the i-capsule and seal him in tight. now days, weeks, and months have gone by and i've pretty much forgotten about george until one afternoon i am confronted with an intractable dilemma. i am faced with a decision with staggeringly profound moral implications and i must make a decision immediately. what do i do? well this sounds like a case for the magnificent george! so i locate my everything-proof capsule on which i have scrawled the descriptive term "i-gap" with my handy wax pencil, and i ask my question. i exhaustively explain all of the known factors leading up to and logical implications of this monumental decision to george, my moral, spiritual and financial advisor, and then i wait for an answer, any answer at all. nothing happens. things are getting desperate, so i beg george to give me an answer, to point me in the right direction. nothing happens. i light some candles and wave a magic wand over the i-gap, but still i can't divine any response from george. i realize there is a problem with the i-gap's design. so i quickly scour my garage for spare parts and retrofit a one way intercom system onto the i-gap so i can hear what george has to say. mind you he still can't hear anything or in any way perceive anything that i have to say, thus preserving the integrity of the influence-gap, but now he can speak directly to me, thus becoming an uncaused-cause. of course george has causes, he was born and raised and had both happy and sad experiences, but i'll just ignore all that for now. george is pretty much an uncaused-cause now that he is housed in the exclusive and luxurious, new and improved i-gap. so i ask george again to answer my plea for guidance. nothing happens. every once in a while george does actually say something but it's usually along the lines of "let me out of this f#cking box you god#amned muth#rf#cking muth#rf#cker!" heh, that george is such a kidder!

obviously george is constrained by the parameters of his confinement and is therefore incapable of offering any advice that would be requested from him.

the same would be true if you put jesus, or krishna, or a unicorn, or any conceivable entity or event in the modified i-gap.

ipso-facto, no free-will.
The very process by which you want to translate qualitative experiences into measurable quantities that do not themselves exhibit the qualitative constituents of experience, fundamentally changes the subject matter of the investigation such that the resultant account of consciousness is a contradiction in terms.

Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates. A conscious state includes a desire or intention, it includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state.  Such conscious states can have causal effect to bring about further states for the sake of values and purposes, and intents, values, and purposes are not reducible to the purely physical state of your deterministic argument. 


Sidewalker
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@3RU7AL
When we talk about having control over our actions, the only concept we can apply is that which aligns with human experience. Anything beyond that is purely made up.
so, basically, if you "feel free" then you "are free" ?

even if there is no way to QUANTIFY this "freedom" ?

do children have "free-will" (and as such are solely and fully morally responsible for their actions) ?

(IFF) children do not have "free-will" (THEN) at what point do they receive it ?

how can "free-will" be measured and or verified scientifically ?

do dogs have "free-will" ?

does a spider have "free-will" ?
Do you think this list of questions in some way constitutes an argument, do you think asking these questions supports your contention that free will does not exist?

How does that work, what is the point.  

Being obtuse doesn't make any point at all.  You still need to provide an extraordinary argument supporting your extraordinary claim.
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@Double_R
(IFF) free-will is proportional to intelligence (animals and infants have less, adult humans have more)

(AND) free-will is proportional to moral culpability (without free-will there is no moral culpability)

(THEN) intelligence is proportional to moral culpability.
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@Sidewalker
Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates. A conscious state includes a desire or intention, it includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state.  Such conscious states can have causal effect to bring about further states for the sake of values and purposes, and intents, values, and purposes are not reducible to the purely physical state of your deterministic argument. 
do we "freely-choose" what we desire ?
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@Sidewalker
You still need to provide an extraordinary argument supporting your extraordinary claim.
(IFF) an action and or event is truly "uncaused" (THEN) that action and or event cannot possibly be contextual (goal oriented)
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Physical determinism is not logically valid because physical science is an empirical endeavor, not a logically conclusive process and the physical evidence has never justified the assumption of determinism by any stretch of the imagination.
i'm not arguing for "physicalism"

and i'm also not arguing for "determinism"

my position is "indeterminism"
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The real free will debate is about whether we have the cognitive ability to conceive of future courses of action, deliberate about various reasons for choosing among them, determine our actions on the basis of such deliberation, and control our actions despite the presence of competing desires. If we do have these abilities, and we can exercise these cognitive abilities to act without our actions being unreasonably compromised by external pressure, then we possess free will and human beings are morally responsible causal agents.
how do you propose we quantify "intent" ?
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@Sidewalker
Xeno’s paradox does not prove that motion is impossible,
xeno's "paradox" proves that space is not "infinitely divisible" and is instead, like max planck explains, divisible only to a point
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@Sidewalker
Your argument that reality is either universally determined or universally random is nonsense,
or a clever mix of both

which doesn't solve either "problem"
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The strongest argument for the existence of free will is that we all observe it during every conscious moment, it is a fundamental and significant part of our experiential reality at all times, hence it is self-evident, a brute fact.
the FEELING of "free-will" is a private and personal gnostic experience that cannot be verified by science and therefore does not qualify as a "fact"

any more than the personal experience of "god's love" qualifies as a "fact"
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In the end, there is no valid basis upon which the rejection of Free Will can be said to be true of reality.
do you believe insects have "free-will" ?
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) free-will is proportional to intelligence (animals and infants have less, adult humans have more)

(AND) free-will is proportional to moral culpability (without free-will there is no moral culpability)

(THEN) intelligence is proportional to moral culpability.
I have no idea what this has to do with our conversation.
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I have no idea what this has to do with our conversation.
do you believe that adult humans have more "free-will" and therefore more "moral responsibility" than human children ?
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@3RU7AL
The real free will debate is about whether we have the cognitive ability to conceive of future courses of action, deliberate about various reasons for choosing among them, determine our actions on the basis of such deliberation, and control our actions despite the presence of competing desires. If we do have these abilities, and we can exercise these cognitive abilities to act without our actions being unreasonably compromised by external pressure, then we possess free will and human beings are morally responsible causal agents.
how do you propose we quantify "intent" ?
Already answered, pay attention:

"The very process by which you want to translate qualitative experiences into measurable quantities that do not themselves exhibit the qualitative constituents of experience, fundamentally changes the subject matter of the investigation such that the resultant account of consciousness is a contradiction in terms."

You seem to think your obsession with measuring qualities to turn them into quantities that are unrelated to the quality makes some kind of universal point in almost any conversation, rather than assuming obtuse is a valid form of argument, please explain what point you think this obsession with contradiction makes. 
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@Sidewalker
please explain what point you think this obsession with contradiction makes. 
seeking logical coherence is the only way to reduce cognitive dissonance
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"The very process by which you want to translate qualitative experiences into measurable quantities that do not themselves exhibit the qualitative constituents of experience, fundamentally changes the subject matter of the investigation such that the resultant account of consciousness is a contradiction in terms."
please present your personally preferred definition of "consciousness"