The problem of "beneficial evil" in Christianity

Author: Best.Korea

Posts

Total: 14
Topic's author
#1
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,647
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Some religious folks have suggested that all evil is beneficial.

All evil that we experience carries some benefit for us, they say.

However, with that idea, we reach a bit of a weird situation.

Lets say you have a rape victim. Can you seriously argue that being raped was beneficial for her?

Because then you would basically be arguing that the rapist was actually helping her, acting in her interest and in God's interest.

How can you condemn a rapist while claiming that rape is beneficial?

Now, some folks like to throw around "free will". However, that contradicts with God's omniscience.

If God knew that certain person will commit rape, why would God create such a person? Its God's action of creating a rapist that made the rape happen, which makes God guilty.

So God wasnt simply "letting it happen". He was helping to make it happen. Its like me opening a cage with wild bear in it, and then when bear attacks people, responsibility would be mine.
#2
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Best.Korea
Some religious folks have suggested that all evil is beneficial.
Who says this? I'm not denying some people say this, but who are we talking about and why are they saying this, if they are?

All evil that we experience carries some benefit for us, they say.
Again who says this?  And does this mean that the evil done to us - must give us - singlular a benefit or plural a benefit? And is there a difference?

However, with that idea, we reach a bit of a weird situation.
Arguments of Straw often leave people with weird conclusions.

Let's say you have a rape victim. Can you seriously argue that being raped was beneficial for her?
Perplexing question. What is a benefit? Does it have to be significant? Can it be just something she has learnt or a new way of responding to pressures?  Let's say a girl is raped because a man has taken advantage of her being drunk or taking drugs.  If the victim, say because of the rape, decides she will never take drugs or get drunk again, is that beneficial for her? If she learns that trust is something that has to be earned, is that a beneficial thing? 

Of course, from a pluralistic point of view of benefit for the society, having a young woman raped at a college, might persuade people at the college to introduce new beneficial laws protecting - not only that girl in the future but others too. This may never have happened in that particular girl was not raped. 

Because then you would basically be arguing that the rapist was actually helping her, acting in her interest and in God's interest.
I think that is false conclusion.  Benefits done to a person never justify the wrong or evil done.  The ends don't justify the means.  But this doesn't mean of course that evil done - can't produce positive and helpful benefits.  

How can you condemn a rapist while claiming that rape is beneficial?
Rapists ought to always be condemned. No one is actually arguing that rape is beneficial. They are arguing that the result of such a rape - such an evil - can lead and often does lead to positive benefits. Interestingly, there is link here to Keynes' demand side economics v supply side economics. Keynes said - create a war and it will lead to a boom in construction and benefit the society.  I always call this broken window economics. And personally I disagree with the theory. Yes, it works, but it is not the best way forward. Rape is not good and ought to be condemned.  Yet despite its evil, the response to it doesn't have to be evil.  One of my best friends, is the result of a rape.  Her father raped her mother and she was conceived.  I happen to think that Tina (not her real name) is a positive benefit from that rape. The rape ought never to have occurred. but it did. The mother kept the baby, adopted her out. The girl grew up and is now one of NZ's most popular and successful businesswoman. 

Now, some folks like to throw around "free will". However, that contradicts with God's omniscience.
It depends what you mean by free will. 

If God knew that certain person will commit rape, why would God create such a person? It's God's action of creating a rapist that made the rape happen, which makes God guilty.
that is one argument. But it depends on what you mean by free will and also what you understand by the difference between first and second causes. 

So God wasnt simply "letting it happen". He was helping to make it happen. It's like me opening a cage with wild bear in it, and then when bear attacks people, responsibility would be mine.
See my last response. It's a good question.

#3
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Tradesecret wrote: ......


 One of my best friends, is the result of a rape.  Her father raped her mother and she was conceived.  I happen to think that Tina (not her real name) is a positive benefit from that rape. The rape ought never to have occurred. but it did. The mother kept the baby, adopted her out. The girl grew up and is now one of NZ's most popular and successful businesswoman. 

.......yet another TALL story.😂

If this was a murder victim, I am sure he would spin us all a yarn of the benefits of being murdered from the victims standpoint and from his own experience. 🤣
#4
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Best.Korea
God might be more about valuing experience and growing through strife. for most people, they can become good people if they struggle with overcoming their faults and overcoming the faults of others. for those on the margin who suffer, humans can some day use technoology to co create a solution to their problem.  i pointed out that Jesus said it will glorify God when the suffering is no more in the afterlife. i know that sounds like a cop out, but what if there is a purpose to suffering? that's a great answer to how to find glory in suffering, if it's possble to find that glory, then this is it. again, i understand if you thought i was rationalizing and coping out, but i'm trying to be an optimist. plus when people who die and come back tell us of the afterlife, they say things like we choose our experience and that we can grow and learn from any experience we have, even the negative. and, finally, like i said, if God's focus is on 'experience', then even if the experince is bad, it's still experience. life and hte universe for humans is about discovery and growth. we can find that even in the worst negatives that are out there. 

it's like glass half full v glass half empty. i choose to find purpose in everything, and see the glass half full. you can choose to say life's a bitch and the glass is half empty, i just choose not to accept that as reality. NDEs and the afterlife expereinces are on my side on this too, as well as a viable or possible way of looking at it, so it's not like i'm just blindly choosing to focus on the good just because i'm not a realist. you have compelling arguemnts that you are more the realist, i just think it's mistaken, and to the extent that i have a choice in my view or reality, i choose to think the glass if half full 
Topic's author
#5
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,647
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@n8nrgim
Do you think that humans consented, before birth, to go through all this, therefore justifying evil as desired evil?
#6
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Best.Korea
I think that's probably true, we knew what we would experience. We r part of God and eternal and that's what many nde experiencers say so it makes sense. If it's not true that we all came here knowingly then I think at least many of us did
#7
IlDiavolo
IlDiavolo's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,514
3
2
5
IlDiavolo's avatar
IlDiavolo
3
2
5
-->
@n8nrgim
I think that's probably true, we knew what we would experience. We r part of God and eternal and that's what many nde experiencers say so it makes sense. If it's not true that we all came here knowingly then I think at least many of us did
Let me disagree with you, but I think what you just said is pure bullshit. I'm sorry you'd read that but I had to tell it, it's the same bullshit religious people say just so to find comfort for the sufferers.

The only purpose of suffering, as far as I'm concerned, is to tell you that something is going wrong with your body or mind so you have to look for a solution or make changes in your life so to have a better life. Suffering is just a survival mechanism of this biological system, if we didn't have it we would perish as species.

On the other hand, I could argue that suffering can be usefull for making us stronger, that's totally true and it could come in handy for our evolution process. However, to believe that we suffer in this life because we agreed so beforehand is a fucking joke.

Again, sorry you have to read that.
#8
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@IlDiavolo
my impression is that you believe in the afterlife right? what is your view of why we suffer, or the purpose of suffering? if your view is that suffering is to inform us to avoid said suffering, why is it such that there is suffering to begin with? 
Topic's author
#9
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,647
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@n8nrgim
I think that's probably true, we knew what we would experience
Then that makes Christianity redundant, unnecessary to believe in. It excludes the option of hell, as no one would consent to go hell eternally.

#10
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Best.Korea
I think that's probably true, we knew what we would experience
Then that makes Christianity redundant, unnecessary to believe in. It excludes the option of hell, as no one would consent to go hell eternally.
What does consent have to do with Hell?  Can you imagine a judge asking a criminal?  Hey Sir, you committed a crime against the state and against the victim. Our Laws state that if a person does that and is found guilty in the court that they must be punished.  The law says I can give you up to 20 years maximum.  But because we also believe in consent - I need to ask you this question. Do you consent to be punished to prison? 

And lo and behold, the criminal turns around and says - No. I don't consent.   Does that make prisons redundant? 


Topic's author
#11
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,647
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Tradesecret
When you create a criminal to imprison him, the whole process becomes redundant.

Hence, the theory of hell cannot stand any meassure of all-good all-creating God
#12
IlDiavolo
IlDiavolo's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,514
3
2
5
IlDiavolo's avatar
IlDiavolo
3
2
5
-->
@n8nrgim
my impression is that you believe in the afterlife right?
That is correct, I do. The afterlife, though, doesn't have anything to do with suffering. Pain, which is what makes us suffer, is a biological signal, it's part of us and has a reason being for this life, not for the other, because in the other side there is no pain as far as I'm concerned. I'm really not sure if we agreed to come to this life, but I think we have to be utterly conscious that this life we're living in is temporal and if we ever have to experience pain it's not supposed to last so long.

what is your view of why we suffer, or the purpose of suffering? if your view is that suffering is to inform us to avoid said suffering, why is it such that there is suffering to begin with? 
Dude, I think this is rather evident. The main goal of this life is to evolve as species so to have a better experience and pain plays an important role on that. If we have no pain, there is no evolution. I'd say suffering tells us how evolved we are, and judging by how much suffering there is in the world we can say without any doubt that we are fucked up as species. According to some people that had contact with this alien civilization that look over us, we have a lot of potential. For example, we can live much longer (according to the last scientific news we can live up to 1,000 years), but to get at that point it's necessary to understand we're not just matter but esentially energy (or spirit). If we understand and develop our spiritual side along with the technology the suffering in this world will end.
#13
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@IlDiavolo
i mean you didn't really give a deeper meaning as to why we suffer to begin with. your answer is for us to evolve, but why is it such that we're put into that situation to begin with?
is your main beef with what i said that i think we probably agree to a life that includes suffering? i did say maybe not all of us do that. and if evolving is a necessary part of our existence why would it be so far fetched to think maybe the ones who have to suffer in that process didn't volunteer to be part of that process? 
#14
IlDiavolo
IlDiavolo's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,514
3
2
5
IlDiavolo's avatar
IlDiavolo
3
2
5
-->
@n8nrgim
i mean you didn't really give a deeper meaning as to why we suffer to begin with. your answer is for us to evolve, but why is it such that we're put into that situation to begin with? 
I think what you're questioning is why suffering should be that unconfortable. Well, I guess this is the way it is, the system is designed like this. The universe functions with contrasts, for the day there is the night, for the happiness there is the sadness, and so on. Nobody likes pain but it's necessary to alert us to any malfunction in our body or our mind. As I said, if it weren't so unconfortable we wouldn't give a shit and as a result we would die irremediably.

is your main beef with what i said that i think we probably agree to a life that includes suffering? i did say maybe not all of us do that. and if evolving is a necessary part of our existence why would it be so far fetched to think maybe the ones who have to suffer in that process didn't volunteer to be part of that process?
I really don't know if we agreed to come to this life, that's pure speculation and I don't like speculation because it reminds me of religions. I'm just telling you my opinion about pain and suffering according to my observations and the little knowledge I have about it. We're supposed to evolve to the point that we no longer need to work (which is a source of pain too), live much longer, have a better health, be more civilized, in short live a life with the less pain possible.