What's the strongest argument for atheism?

Author: Fallaneze

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@TwoMan
@Fallaneze
There just needs to be a fact of the matter in order to resolve COMFORT disagreements. Without COMFORT realism, there's no fact of the matter. There's also no COMFORT progress, no COMFORT highground, no COMFORT correctness or incorrectness, no instrinsic COMFORT value attached to dispositions like compassion and cruelty, in the case of two competing COMFORT views on something, one person can never be more right than the other, and COMFORT discussions themselves would be no different than reaching a consensus on a favorite color. 

Isn't human (physical and mental and emotional) comfort the most important thing to each and every person on earth?

Every home and every vehicle and every office and every shop should be set to 22.222 degrees Celsius by law.

Anything else would be absolutely insane.
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@Fallaneze
Yes, deism doesn't specify any particular God. Deism wouldn't be inconsequential. It would have implications for consciousness, biology, an afterlife, etc. It's also enough for atheism to be false.
How, exactly does Deism inform "an afterlife"?

And atheism being "false" is inconsequential if there is absolutely no way to distinguish between Deism and atheism.
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Please avoid conflating Quanta with Qualia.
"Quanta" = 'bit' as occupied Space information

"Qualia" = 'bit' as metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept  information

'Bit', as all words and concepts have a duality characteristics

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@Fallaneze
Ok, I'll rephrase. Neither your moral standards nor their moral standards are more rationally warranted. It's wholly dependent upon subjective opinion.
Since the term "rational" is relative to the person using it, yes.

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Because our universe would have been created by a transcendent consciousness (not comprised of the physical universe itself) if deism is true. This implies that consciousness rather than matter is fundamental and is therefore in direct opposition to atheism.

In genetics, scientists have coined the term "junk DNA" for strands of DNA they believed had no functional role in sustaining the organism because it had been left over from evolving. If a deity created the universe, this is an avenue for life to have been designed. Rather than mindlessly compiled, DNA can be viewed from a design-first approach. And as it turns out, less and less DNA is discovered to be "junk."

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@TwoMan
Okay, so you and the jihadists just have different opinions, neither one is better. Nothing would rationally compel someone to either side. It's rational for jihadists to wage jihad.
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@TwoMan
Ok, I'll rephrase. Neither your moral standards nor their moral standards are more rationally warranted. It's wholly dependent upon subjective opinion.
Since the term "rational" is relative to the person using it, yes.
It only seems to be a matter of opinion, BECAUSE YOUR AXIOMS ARE HIDDEN.

Please make your axioms explicit.
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@Fallaneze
Okay, so you and the jihadists just have different opinions, neither one is better. Nothing would rationally compel someone to either side. It's rational for jihadists to wage jihad.
I consider my opinion to be better and, I assume, so do you. You would likely be more compelled to join my side because our moral standards are more in alignment. It is rational for a jihadist to wage jihad if they believe that jihad is "good". It is also my prerogative to stop them if that violates my moral standards. "Morality" and "rational" are subjective terms relative to the person using them. You keep trying to use them in an objective sense and I keep trying to put them back in a subjective sense. I think this is the entire basis for our disagreement. You believe these are objective terms and I don't.
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Taking this view resolves anyone of moral responsibility or moral accountability before making their decision about whether they should accept your moral standards or the jihadists. One who desires control and pleasure, but initially felt held back by their conscience, can intellectually justify their desire to rape innocent women by considering it good. Does that ring true?
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@Fallaneze
Because our universe would have been created by a transcendent consciousness (not comprised of the physical universe itself) if deism is true.
This is a logical non-sequitur.  "transcendent" and "consciousness" are terms relative to human experience.

The Deism hypothesis adds zero information to "The Big Bang".

It is merely an ontological choice to say, "The Big Bang" / "Noumenon" = god(s).

This implies that consciousness rather than matter is fundamental and is therefore in direct opposition to atheism.
Nobody except nobody believes "matter is fundamental".  Noumenon is fundamental.

In genetics, scientists have coined the term "junk DNA" for strands of DNA they believed had no functional role in sustaining the organism because it had been left over from evolving.
Terms like "chaos" "randomness" "dark energy" and "junk DNA" are merely scientific placeholder terms that mean "we have no flipping clue".

If a deity created the universe, this is an avenue for life to have been designed.
This is another logical non-sequitur.  We have no idea if the human concept of "designed" either has or does not have any conceivable corollary to something like the Noumenon.  This hypothesis is beyond our epistemological limits.

Rather than mindlessly compiled, DNA can be viewed from a design-first approach. And as it turns out, less and less DNA is discovered to be "junk."
Identifying complex patterns and or previously unidentified uses and or "purposes" of "junk DNA" does nothing to "prove" "design".

Such a development would be exactly like the hundreds of years of scientific progress where we discover knowledge that was previously unknown.

Before Democritus, people thought the weather was "fundamentally unpredictable" and when Democritus was able to predict the weather with some modicum of accuracy, the people began to worship him as a god.  To his credit, he did his best to explain to everyone that he was just a normal human being, just like the rest of them.
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@TwoMan
@Fallaneze
Taking this view resolves anyone of moral responsibility or moral accountability before making their decision about whether they should accept your moral standards or the jihadists. One who desires control and pleasure, but initially felt held back by their conscience, can intellectually justify their desire to rape innocent women by considering it good. Does that ring true?
This is why we must force moral axioms to be EXPLICIT.

Hidden axioms make everything seem to be a matter of opinion.
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@Fallaneze
One who desires control and pleasure, but initially felt held back by their conscience, can intellectually justify their desire to rape innocent women by considering it good.
Your conscience is based upon your moral standards. If it is in conflict with your desires and you can still justify immoral conduct then you are not being honest with yourself.

Fallaneze
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@TwoMan
All you'd need to do is believe dishonesty is a good trait. This would all be malleable stuff 
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@Fallaneze
Do you think there are no people who believe that dishonesty is a good trait? A compulsive liar comes to mind. A devious businessman who wants to win at any cost. Lots of people think dishonesty is good in the right circumstance. Little white lies are considered good by many. Yes, this is all malleable stuff.
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@TwoMan
Ok, so one who desires control and pleasure, but initially felt held back by their conscience, can intellectually justify their desire to rape innocent women by considering it good. If their conscience is still bothering them they just begin valuing dishonesty more than honesty. And it's not as if their conscience even meant anything in the first place. Discomfort from their conscience would be like indigestion after eating tacos. 
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@Fallaneze
Ok, so one who desires control and pleasure, but initially felt held back by their conscience, can intellectually justify their desire to rape innocent women by considering it good. If their conscience is still bothering them they just begin valuing dishonesty more than honesty. And it's not as if their conscience even meant anything in the first place. Discomfort from their conscience would be like indigestion after eating tacos. 
Yes that can happen. Why do think there are so many criminals in the world? Partially because everyone has a different moral standard. That is why we have laws. Laws are meant to define and enforce moral standards because people, left to their own devices, will not always behave in a way that is beneficial or benign to society at large. If you are saying this is not the case, I disagree. If you are saying it shouldn't be the case then I agree. Do you have a specific point that you are trying to make?
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@TwoMan
It's not a matter of whether it can happen, it's a matter of whether this is really what morality boils down to. Raping people is good as long as somebody believes it is and there's no moral highground for those who believe otherwise. The human conscience is a meaningless discomfort. 

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@Fallaneze
It's not a matter of whether it can happen, it's a matter of whether this is really what morality boils down to. Raping people is good as long as somebody believes it is and there's no moral highground for those who believe otherwise. The human conscience is a meaningless discomfort. 
That is the price of freedom. The freedom to think as you like. I don't think the human conscience is meaningless for most people. For some, unfortunately, it is.
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One who desires control and pleasure, but initially felt held back by their conscience, can intellectually justify their desire to rape innocent women by considering it good. Does that ring true?
If you think something is good (or bad) but everyone else thinks its bad (or good) the first thing to do is wonder if you are right.  If you still do then you have two choices:   Live according to your unorthodox belief or 'go with the flow'.

I don't imagine any rapist has ever thought rape was morally good.  But a white south african who was against apatheid obviously should work against the system, not to maintain it.

A rapist who knows rape is bad is one thing - he is morally culpable because knowing the good he chose the bad.  A hypothetical rapist who believed rape is good has his brain wired up all wrong.  He is sick, not criminal.  But i think such rapists are rare if they exist at all.  In general it is often right to follow one's conscience, not the crowd.
 



Fallaneze
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@TwoMan
How wouldn't the human moral conscience be meaningless? It wouldn't correspond to how we should conduct ourselves. There's no higher meaning there. 
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@Fallaneze
How wouldn't the human moral conscience be meaningless? It wouldn't correspond to how we should conduct ourselves. There's no higher meaning there. 
Human conscience would be meaningless if everyone thought the way you are describing. They don't so it isn't.
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@TwoMan
If something has no meaning unless some gives it meaning, by itself it has no meaning. The human moral conscience itself would be meaningless. 

Fallaneze
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Not only do I believe that moral non realism is false, it also renders morality to be completely arbitrary and incentivizes people to become moral monsters.
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@Fallaneze
Where do you think meaning comes from? It takes a mind to give something meaning otherwise as many here have pointed out it is just "quanta". "Qualia" is the meaning given to "quanta".
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@TwoMan
Ok, then what I said must be true - the human moral conscience itself has no meaning.
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If someone thought that their conscience had the meaning of telling them opposite of what they should do, then if their conscience told them not to rape someone, they'd rape them. They are just as rational in giving their conscience this meaning as someone who believes their conscience tells them behavior they should actually follow.
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@Fallaneze
Ok, then what I said must be true - the human moral conscience itself has no meaning.
No meaning to whom or what?
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@TwoMan
By itself.
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@Fallaneze
By itself.
That is correct. It takes a conscious mind to give it meaning.

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@TwoMan
Ok. At least you're logically consistent.