So the arguments given for atheism so far are:
* lack of evidence for theism
* propensity for people to make up supernatural explanations
What's the strongest argument for atheism?
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@Fallaneze
They could only say that if they can articulate any harmful actions that my moral standards have caused. I can articulate many that they have caused. Harm can be interpreted as either mental or physical with physical being the most obvious. I suppose anyone could say that they have suffered mental harm by my apostasy so I'll just stick with physical harm to make my point.
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@TwoMan
Maximizing physical harm to you is good though according to their chosen standard. In any case, there's no moral highground between the both of you.
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@Fallaneze
Then what good is a theistic objective moral standard? Does everyone need to be on the same page that says it is a "good" thing to kill someone due to a lack of belief?Maximizing physical harm to you is good though according to their chosen standard. In any case, there's no moral highground between the both of you.
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@TwoMan
There just needs to be a fact of the matter in order to resolve moral disagreements. Without moral realism, there's no fact of the matter. There's also no moral progress, no moral highground, no moral correctness or incorrectness, no instrinsic moral value attached to dispositions like compassion and cruelty, in the case of two competing moral views on something, one person can never be more right than the other, and moral discussions themselves would be no different than reaching a consensus on a favorite color.
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@Fallaneze
So which moral standard is "real"? Yours, mine or theirs?
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@TwoMan
Well if none of them are what would it matter?
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@Fallaneze
Well if none of them are what would it matter?
If none of them are then moral realism does not exist. If one of them is real, which one is it?
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@TwoMan
Correct. So in order to begin our inquiry about which one is real we must first be working from the moral realist perspective. It's a matter of determining which moral views corroborate the underlying facts. It's a matter of discerning which moral views are most rational.
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@Fallaneze
Good luck with that. What is rational to one person may not be to another which is kind of the point here. I think murder is wrong. Someone else does not. That is about as basic a claim as you can make and even it can't be agreed upon.Correct. So in order to begin our inquiry about which one is real we must first be working from the moral realist perspective. It's a matter of determining which moral views corroborate the underlying facts. It's a matter of discerning which moral views are most rational.
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@TwoMan
Why is the person who believes murder isn't wrong just as rational as everyone else who believes it is?
"Behave according to the maxim that your behavior can be rationally endorsed as a universal principle."
The moral proposition A: "It is permissible to steal" would result in a contradiction upon universalisation. The notion of stealing presupposes the existence of private property, but were A universalized, then there could be no private property, and so the proposition has logically negated itself."
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@Fallaneze
What behavior can be rationally endorsed as a universal principle to everyone?
Where are you going with this?
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@TwoMan
Be compassionate, honest, courageous, diligent, etc.
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@Fallaneze
Be compassionate, honest, courageous, diligent, etc.
All good ideas. It seems that our moral standards are in alignment.
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@TwoMan
Do you like the flavor of chocolate or vanilla ice cream better?
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@Fallaneze
Do you like the flavor of chocolate or vanilla ice cream better?
Actually, I like a swirl of both.
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@TwoMan
Haha okay, do you like a swirl of chocolate and vanilla ice cream or strawberry ice cream better?
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@TwoMan
What behavior can be rationally endorsed as a universal principle to everyone?....Be compassionate, honest, courageous, diligent, etc.
If everyone is being compassionate and honest, it becomes rational to exploit it by being cruel and dishonest.
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@Fallaneze
Haha okay, do you like a swirl of chocolate and vanilla ice cream or strawberry ice cream better?
Chocolate.
I imagine in about 20 more posts we will get to the point?
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@keithprosser
That would violate the universality principle though. So exploiting people by being cruel and dishonest cannot be rationally endorsed as a universal principle.
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@TwoMan
Is someone who likes the flavor of vanilla ice cream better than chocolate irrational?
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@Fallaneze
Is someone who likes the flavor of vanilla ice cream better than chocolate irrational?
No. Please make your point.
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@TwoMan
Is someone irrational for believing that cruelty, dishonesty, cowardice, and laziness are morally good?
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@Fallaneze
I, personally, would find those things irrational if I wanted to be considered a good person. However, I cannot speak for someone else.Is someone irrational for believing that cruelty, dishonesty, cowardice, and laziness are morally good?
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@TwoMan
True, you can't speak for someone else, but you did not see any rational difference between yourself and someone who disagreed with you on which flavor of ice cream was better. So if morality is purely based on opinion, just as which flavors of ice cream taste better is purely an opinion, why is there a rational difference between the two?
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@Fallaneze
Because rationality is not universal. What is rational to me may not be rational to another.
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@TwoMan
How did you arrive at the conclusion that rationality isn't universal? If someone believes that their behavior is rational does that automatically make it so?
What I'm not understanding is why you've accepted that a different opinion on ice cream flavors isn't irrational but a different opinion on morality is. It would make sense for this to happen from a moral realist standpoint but not from a moral non-realist standpoint. If you were logically consistent in recognizing that morality, like ice cream flavors, are purely subjective, there should be no rational differences between their different opinions on ice cream than on their different opinions about morality.
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@Fallaneze
Also, the difference between a preference for ice cream and a moral issue would be the effect the outcome has on others. The fact that both are subjective is not relevant.
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@Fallaneze
It does to that person at that moment. It may not appear rational to anyone else. They may also change their mind at a later time.If someone believes that their behavior is rational does that automatically make it so?