Vivek vs Pakman.

Author: Greyparrot

Posts

Total: 78
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10

Pakman: "is there any way to interpret that
Donald Trump actually won the 2020
election or did he lose the 2020
election"

Vivek: I'm a data driven guy, I'm a data
driven guy, and I think you
probably are too. Based on 
what little I know.. so look at the
polling data, yeah. On the
aftermath and before and after there are
more than enough people... it's not even by
a super small margin, that say they would
have changed their vote had they been
exposed to that information before that
election. The fact is that was systematically
suppressed in what was probably the
single greatest form of election
interference in American history. And
there's a lot of discussions if I may
just finish just to just simply get the
full Freight of my view here yeah there
was a lot of discussion about the
legitimacy of the 2016 election on the
back of Russian election interference
that actually, as it turns out, was actually
a much smaller scale than surmised. But
on the day of Trump's inauguration there
was a lot of discussion Hillary Clinton
called the election result illegitimate
and said that it was partly the product
of Russian election interference
whatever that was. That pales in
comparison pales to the effect of the
systematic suppression on domestic soil
of a story that two years later every
news Outlet in this country has
absolutely admitted was indeed true. When
it was systematically suppressed at the
time so you ask the question
is there any basis?
there's your basis.



Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Do you think Vivek has a point here?
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Do you think Vivek has a point here?
no, not really. The laptop story was nothing. It showed that the son of a presidential candidate was a bit shady. The story had nothing to do with joe biden. Even to this day, it is little more than an attempt to smear a politician by attacking his children. most voters don't care about hunter biden. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
most voters don't care about hunter biden. 

True. Only 10-17% (depending on the poll) would have switched their votes. But would that have decided the election?

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@HistoryBuff
The story had nothing to do with joe biden.
Yes it did, Joe is "The big guy".

cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Greyparrot
I saw this interview as well. America needs Vivek.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
True. Only 10-17% (depending on the poll) would have switched their votes. But would that have decided the election?
polling someone years later and asking them if they would have switched their vote because of some bogus story doesn't mean very much. 

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
The story had nothing to do with joe biden.
Yes it did, Joe is "The big guy".
What are you talking about now? where has there ever been any evidence that joe biden committed a crime? Show me what policy he changed because of what hunter was doing? 
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Greyparrot

How do you think Trump's son in-law got $2 billion from the Saudi's?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
some bogus story
I don't have a problem when you dismiss credible information. I do when the FBI does it and then censors the information with government force.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
If there was any truth, the FBI would have censored it long ago.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
I don't have a problem when you dismiss credible information. I do when the FBI does it and then censors the information with government force.
what information were they censoring exactly? What was on the laptop that you think was important for people to know?

IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
I don't have a problem when you dismiss credible information.
Every story you latch on to is not credible. A classic example of why this country is a shit show.

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@HistoryBuff
True. Only 10-17% (depending on the poll) would have switched their votes. But would that have decided the election?
polling someone years later and asking them if they would have switched their vote because of some bogus story doesn't mean very much. 
The story was true, and it was censored in violation of the 1st amendment. It matters a great deal if the constitution was violated, it means the constitution is null until the effects of the violation are remedied.


The story had nothing to do with joe biden.
Yes it did, Joe is "The big guy".
What are you talking about now?
The laptop contained evidence incriminating Joe Biden. Referring to him as "the big guy" in foreign dealings where a whistleblower and Hunter's own text messages confirm that "the big guy" is Joe Biden and he gets 10%.


Show me what policy he changed because of what hunter was doing? 
If he never delivered anything, why did he get 10%?
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
The story was true
what story? that a laptop exists? sure, it does. It had nude photos that republicans have illegally published. I have yet to hear of anything more substantial being found on the laptop and certainly havne't heard of any evidence that Joe biden committed any sort of crime. And if it doesn't affect joe biden, it has no bearing on an election.

t was censored in violation of the 1st amendment
what? how? Was someone banned by the government from speaking?

The laptop contained evidence incriminating Joe Biden. Referring to him as "the big guy" in foreign dealings where a whistleblower and Hunter's own text messages confirm that "the big guy" is Joe Biden and he gets 10%.
that isn't evidence of a crime. hunter used his daddy's name to make money. That is super scummy, but sadly isn't illegal. Many children of politicans do this. Trump's children for example made TONS of money abusing their relationship to trump and their access to the government. 

And that "whistleblower" made a single statement with no evidence. no evidence for those claims has ever been found. And the "whistleblower" himself has been indicted with many corruption related charges. 

If he never delivered anything, why did he get 10%?
there is no evidence this ever happened. Why would you think it did?
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@HistoryBuff
it was censored in violation of the 1st amendment
what? how? Was someone banned by the government from speaking?
Yes, Twitter and Facebook were infiltrated by deep state (CIA, FBI, etc...)


(he kept lying and  trying to cover up even as Elon Musk was trying to tear Twitter away from the grasp of the deep state)


that isn't evidence of a crime. hunter used his daddy's name to make money.
People don't pay for names. They pay for goods and services.


Many children of politicans do this. Trump's children for example made TONS of money abusing their relationship to trump and their access to the government. 
and if any of those accusations and related evidence was censored by state actors that would also be a breach of the constitution which conveyed moral sanction for any actions needed to remedy.


And that "whistleblower" made a single statement with no evidence.
HistoryBuff, WITNESS TESTIMONY IS EVIDENCE.

(Also he provided phones with text records)


And the "whistleblower" himself has been indicted with many corruption related charges. 
You understand that to me and those like me that fact (if it is a fact) only makes him seem more credible right? We see the DOJ as an enemy institution. Whoever the SS drags away was probably the one telling the dangerous truth.


If he never delivered anything, why did he get 10%?
there is no evidence this ever happened. Why would you think it did?
Why do I have to explain the sky is blue?

I just told you one excellent reason: He got 10%. People don't pay you for rendering no service. Not unless you're defrauding them.

Any sane jury would see a payment from a suspect to a hitman as incriminating evidence. Aspire to sanity HistoryBuff.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
(he kept lying and  trying to cover up even as Elon Musk was trying to tear Twitter away from the grasp of the deep state)
I don't understand. A twitter lawyer didn't release information? how does that have anything to do with the 1st amendment?

People don't pay for names. They pay for goods and services.
this isn't true. People pay for names all the time. It's a cornerstone of trump's business actually. Having someone who looks important or prestigious on your board makes you seem more legitimate and prestigious yourself.

and if any of those accusations and related evidence was censored by state actors that would also be a breach of the constitution which conveyed moral sanction for any actions needed to remedy.
I don't understand. Your previous post showed a twitter lawyer covering up information. When are we getting to the government stopping people from speaking?

HistoryBuff, WITNESS TESTIMONY IS EVIDENCE.
in some cases it can be. If I saw someone commit a crime, then I am a witness to that crime. My testimony would be evidence. The person in question did not see any crime. He said that someone else had seen a crime. Since he is not a witness to any crime, it is just a rumor. 

You understand that to me and those like me that fact (if it is a fact) only makes him seem more credible right? We see the DOJ as an enemy institution. Whoever the SS drags away was probably the one telling the dangerous truth.
That is sad. You see a criminal make wild accusations without anything to back them up. And the fact that he is a criminal makes them more credible to you. 

I just told you one excellent reason: He got 10%.
you told me there is a rumor he got 10%. You provided absolutely no evidence that this ever happened. no one has provided evidence of that despite years of looking.

People don't pay you for rendering no service. Not unless you're defrauding them.
people do this all the time. Trump has been paid huge amounts of money for putting his name on things without him doing anything. 

Any sane jury would see a payment from a suspect to a hitman as incriminating evidence. Aspire to sanity HistoryBuff.
ok. but there is no such thing here. Hunter biden got paid to sit on a board of a company because it gave them prestige and legitimacy to do so. This is a common (albeit scummy) practice that lots of companies engage in. Burisma also had a former president of poland a foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney's presidential campaign on the board among others.

There is 0 evidence that anything illegal happened. There is no evidence any money went to joe biden. There is no evidence joe biden did anything that could be construed as helping that company. You are just trading in rumors and conspiracy theories.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Yes, Twitter and Facebook were infiltrated by deep state (CIA, FBI, etc...
First, only idiots get their news and information on these sites, so no harm, no foul.

Nobody has a right to speak on Twitter or Facebook. 

Nobody has a right to be on Twitter or Facebook, especially when they violate the published policies of those sites.

Lying subverts the right to free speech, especially if it’s harmful to the public. That’s why the Supreme Court ruled long ago that free speech is not an absolute right.
No yelling fire in a crowded, dark movie theater. The government has a compelling need and responsibility to limit some speech we are told. Lies that hurt the public fall into this category.



IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
Learn something new every day I guess.
You certainly do. Although you left out the important part about the speech endangering the public. Deliberately no doubt.

A person certainly will not be charged for yelling fire in a crowded, dark movie theater if there really is a fire. 

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
wow, I wasn't aware there was a SCOTUS ruling saying you can't exercise your 1st amendment right if a government authority figure classifies your speech as a lie.

Learn something new every day I guess.

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@HistoryBuff
(he kept lying and  trying to cover up even as Elon Musk was trying to tear Twitter away from the grasp of the deep state)
I don't understand. A twitter lawyer didn't release information? how does that have anything to do with the 1st amendment?
It shows just how egregiously he held to interests in contradiction to his supposed duties as an employee. Cementing for all rational observers that his true loyalty was with corrupt elements of the government (which has been come to be called "the deep state").


People don't pay for names. They pay for goods and services.
this isn't true. People pay for names all the time.
Maybe when they can stick them on the side of a building in gold letters. I don't see "Biden" in gold around Burisma.


I don't understand. Your previous post showed a twitter lawyer covering up information. When are we getting to the government stopping people from speaking?
It was in the article. This lawyer is FBI.


The person in question did not see any crime. He said that someone else had seen a crime.
False


You see a criminal make wild accusations without anything to back them up.
Text records on phones he provided data him up. All the circumstantial evidence surrounding the Bidens backed him up.


And the fact that he is a criminal makes them more credible to you. 
A criminal to nazis, fascists, and communists is a hero to liberals. It is sad that you so easily fall into the propaganda traps set for you instead of looking at the evidence and using logic to determine the truth.


I just told you one excellent reason: He got 10%.
you told me there is a rumor he got 10%.
Digital evidence and testimony provided by a whistleblower. If you want to call that a rumor I can't stop you, but I will call out your hypocrisy if you call digital evidence and testimony in any other case anything more than rumor.


Burisma also had a former president of poland a foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney's presidential campaign on the board among others.
I didn't know that, but it would not surprise me if true. That supports my criminal theory.


There is 0 evidence that anything illegal happened.
There is zero evidence that Hitler knew about the holocaust if you call witness testimony "rumor" and apply the benefit of the doubt in Hitler's favor an infinite number of times. Since I am sane I know Hitler ordered the holocaust and Biden fired the prosecutor through a quid pro quo to protect Burisma.

There is no evidence any money went to joe biden.
Yes, except for the text messages, emails, witness testimony, and financial records that's correct.


There is no evidence joe biden did anything that could be construed as helping that company.
Yes, except for the text messages, emails, witness testimony, financial records, and Biden's own admission that's correct.

IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
Text records on phones he provided data him up. All the circumstantial evidence surrounding the Bidens backed him up.
Lol. Something you always hear from conspiracy theorists.

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
[IwantRooseveltagain] First, only idiots get their news and information on these sites, so no harm, no foul.
Says the guy who constantly spams threads consisting only of a link to questionable political propaganda and an unoriginal rehash of the more extreme implication thereof.


Nobody has a right to speak on Twitter or Facebook. 
The government (specifically deep state actors) doesn't have the right to puppet private organizations to censor speech. Such an act constitutes sedition against the USA not to mention an unforgivable violation of the oath of service.


The government has a compelling need and responsibility to limit some speech we are told. Lies that hurt the public fall into this category.
The tree of liberty requires fertilizer from all persons who dare to say such things. I believe in the golden rule after all. Let the censors be themselves censored permanently.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Says the guy who constantly spams threads consisting only of a link to questionable political propaganda and an unoriginal rehash of the more extreme implication thereof.
One, you and the Pettifogger don’t know what Spam is.

Two, get your eyes checked. There is more posted than just a link. I read an article. I comment on the article on what it means. I post a defining excerpt from the article. Because I know the morons who frequent this site have very little exposure to genuine news sources. They are more likely to watch Jimmy Dore or read the NY Post.

Three, Only morons think the Washington Post is propaganda.

The government (specifically deep state actors) doesn't have the right to puppet private organizations to censor speech.
Huh, does the FCC make rules about what can go over the airwaves?

Does the FDA make rules about what is on food labels?

The Deep State is nonsense. You are a victim of lies and conspiracy theories. Poor fellow. Don’t you have any family who can save you?



ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
@IwantRooseveltagain in the above post you said nothing worthy of comment. If that is true of your next post addressing me I will not repeat this.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
The tree of liberty requires fertilizer from all persons who dare to say such things. 
Well the Supreme Court of the United States said such a thing.

And I can’t see you surviving a revolution.

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
It shows just how egregiously he held to interests in contradiction to his supposed duties as an employee. Cementing for all rational observers that his true loyalty was with corrupt elements of the government (which has been come to be called "the deep state").
You aren't making sense. The 1st amendment means you have a right to speak. It doesn't mean you have a right to information. So if the government told you that you cannot say something or you will be punished, then that might be a breach of the 1st amendment. If a company decides not to publish information, that has nothing to do with the 1st amendment. 

Maybe when they can stick them on the side of a building in gold letters. I don't see "Biden" in gold around Burisma.
No, but i'm sure Burisma advertised how prestigious their board was and used that to help them schmooze business deals.  That is why they had multiple people on their board that had nothing to do with the industry they were in. 

It was in the article. This lawyer is FBI.
ok. How does that infringe on the 1st amendment? Did the allegedly FBI/twitter lawyer ban people from speaking?

The person in question did not see any crime. He said that someone else had seen a crime.
False
what crime did he say he saw? As far as I know, he alleged there was a recording of some kind of crime. But he did not have it and was not a witness to it. What witness says they saw joe biden committing a crime?

Text records on phones he provided data him up. All the circumstantial evidence surrounding the Bidens backed him up.
what texts? what data? show me a single piece of evidence that connects joe biden to any kind of crime? So far, absolutely none has been provided. 

Digital evidence and testimony provided by a whistleblower. 
what digital evidence? you haven't provided any and as far as i know, none exists. And that "whistleblower" never claimed they witnessed a crime. They claimed someone else witnessed a crime. But no evidence of said crime could be found. 

Burisma also had a former president of poland a foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney's presidential campaign on the board among others.
I didn't know that, but it would not surprise me if true. That supports my criminal theory.
What? it does the exact opposite of that. It shows you that they regularly get people with some prestige or legitimacy to sit on their board. It makes them look more legitimate. It is a common practice. It doesn't mean that any of those people committed a crime. 

 and Biden fired the prosecutor through a quid pro quo to protect Burisma.
there are multiple things wrong with this sentence.

1) Biden didn't decide to fire the prosecutor. Obama did. Biden was just the one sent to it. So saying biden did it as a quid pro quo is silly because it wasn't his choice in the 1st place. 

2) the prosecutor was well known to be corrupt and had been killing investigations of burisma and basically every other rich individual for years. There had been calls  from the IMF, European governments, the US government and others to remove him for his corruption.

3) Burisma was not under investigation when Biden pushed for Shokin to be removed.

There is no evidence any money went to joe biden.
Yes, except for the text messages, emails, witness testimony, and financial records that's correct.
What text messages and emails. As far as I know, the only such records that exist show Hunter trading on his father's name and getting paid for it. I have not heard of any texts or emails that show joe biden being involved. 

There are no witnesses that say they witnessed any biden committed a crime in relation to burisma. If you say there is, provide proof of that.

There are no financial records that show any crime being committed in relation to burisma. Hunter made money, but that isn't illegal. So what financial records are you talking about. 


ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@HistoryBuff
It shows just how egregiously he held to interests in contradiction to his supposed duties as an employee. Cementing for all rational observers that his true loyalty was with corrupt elements of the government (which has been come to be called "the deep state").
You aren't making sense. The 1st amendment means you have a right to speak.
And a right means the government can't tell you to not exercise the option (since there is no way to separate government advise from a government threat due to arbitrary authority in all conventional government)

If a company decides not to publish information, that has nothing to do with the 1st amendment.
If the company was a honeypot run by the government fraudulently claiming to be a public square which then failed to facilitate the speech which the government objected to it has everything to do with the first amendment.

It is no different from the government secretly running a monopoly on print ink and then suddenly refusing to sell to newspapers critical of the government propaganda.


It was in the article. This lawyer is FBI.
ok. How does that infringe on the 1st amendment? Did the allegedly FBI/twitter lawyer ban people from speaking?
Essentially: Yes

and the story is more complicated than that, I merely gave the most prominent example. There was official correspondence between a government office and the social media companies calling out items for censorship and giving winks and nods at critical times. Those subtle communications were used by "former" government agents (who were clearly still government agents) to know what to censor.


No, but i'm sure Burisma advertised how prestigious their board was and used that to help them schmooze business deals.  That is why they had multiple people on their board that had nothing to do with the industry they were in. 
Yet Trump had plenty to do with the real estate industry, hence why his name in connection to real estate would carry weight.

What weight does it carry when an energy company has connection to the US federal government? The implication isn't "Trump is so good at real estate and because we have his brand so are we", it's "Biden is vice president, he wields enormous political power, that power can be used to our benefit."

... and it was. That's what the prosecutor Biden extorted out of office says. (and there may be even better evidence of this coming out soon)

The difference is that Trump giving real estate advice (regardless of whether it's of any use) is not a federal crime and moral corruption. Biden providing any service what so ever in an official capacity is.


Burisma also had a former president of poland a foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney's presidential campaign on the board among others.
I didn't know that, but it would not surprise me if true. That supports my criminal theory.
What? it does the exact opposite of that. It shows you that they regularly get people with some prestige or legitimacy to sit on their board. It makes them look more legitimate. It is a common practice. It doesn't mean that any of those people committed a crime. 
Anyone sitting on the board of an energy company that was being investigated for mass corruption in a country known for mass corruption having nothing to contribute to the actual operation of the company except a connection to government power is an agent of criminal corruption.

It doesn't matter how common it is. It is legally criminal because every government in the world has laws against bribery and extortion for officers of the state. It is morally criminal because it is a violation of sworn oaths and almost always involves inequitable use of violent threats.

1) Biden didn't decide to fire the prosecutor. Obama did.
Rumor?


2) the prosecutor was well known to be corrupt and had been killing investigations of burisma and basically every other rich individual for years.
He wasn't in office for years, so right off the bat I can tell you're just making things up. Also you just demonstrated people from multiple countries were involved in the conspiracy. Some guy from Poland?

Plenty of people were interested in stopping the investigations into burisma. All it would take is a few public statements from foreign governments (US and EU minions), and in fact that is how it started.

Also there is no hard evidence to contradict the prosecutors statement that he was investigating burisma and Biden went after him to stop that investigation.

It's a he said she said thing.

There had been calls  from the IMF, European governments, the US government and others to remove him for his corruption.
None before Biden started getting paid and the prosecutor said he was investigating.


3) Burisma was not under investigation when Biden pushed for Shokin to be removed.
This is disputed as I said.


There is no evidence any money went to joe biden.
Yes, except for the text messages, emails, witness testimony, and financial records that's correct.
What text messages and emails. As far as I know, the only such records that exist show Hunter trading on his father's name and getting paid for it. I have not heard of any texts or emails that show joe biden being involved. 

here are no witnesses that say they witnessed any biden committed a crime in relation to burisma
First admit that if Biden (or even Obama) quid pro quoed Ukraine for political or personal advantage that would be a crime. Trump was impeached for this claim so it would be funny if you denied it, but I'm not going to do the work of gathering screenshots if you plan to weasel out that way.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
And a right means the government can't tell you to not exercise the option (since there is no way to separate government advise from a government threat due to arbitrary authority in all conventional government)
you haven't claimed the government has prevented anyone from exercising their free speech. When did the government stop someone from speaking?

If the company was a honeypot run by the government fraudulently claiming to be a public square which then failed to facilitate the speech which the government objected to it has everything to do with the first amendment.
lmao, no it absolutely does not. You have no right to use twitter. You have no right to information. The 1st amendment doesn't say that. It says you have a right to speak. 

There was official correspondence between a government office and the social media companies calling out items for censorship and giving winks and nods at critical times. Those subtle communications were used by "former" government agents (who were clearly still government agents) to know what to censor.
again, not a 1st amendment issue. If twitter wanted to say things and the government banned them from doing it, then you might have a point. You haven't given me a single specific example of the government banning anyone from speaking. 

What weight does it carry when an energy company has connection to the US federal government?
It gives them prestige and legitimacy. Burisma is run by an eastern european oligarch. They aren't exactly a super friendly face to western investors and governments. Being able to point to a board packed with people who either have prestige and legitimacy themselves, or have family that do, can go a long way to opening doors that might otherwise be closed to you since now you have an air of legitimacy. 

It doesn't matter how common it is. It is legally criminal because every government in the world has laws against bribery and extortion for officers of the state.
it isn't bribery or extortion though. It is a completely legal transaction. I would be fully in favor of cracking down on it. But as of this moment, it is perfectly legal.

1) Biden didn't decide to fire the prosecutor. Obama did.
Rumor?
lol what? you think the vice president has the power to put pressure on a foreign government? the VP has basically no power whatsoever, other than what the president says he does. 

He wasn't in office for years,
my apologies, you are correct. It was 1 year. So year(s) plural was misleading. 

It's a he said she said thing.
lol, so countless people from governments all over the planet agree that Shokin was corrupt. Shokin says they aren't. You choose to believe that one person over everyone else. You really do love conspiracy theories don't you.

None before Biden started getting paid and the prosecutor said he was investigating.
there is no evidence joe biden was ever paid and there is no evidence the prosecutor was investigating. That is just a thing they said later trying to cover their ass.

3) Burisma was not under investigation when Biden pushed for Shokin to be removed.
This is disputed as I said.
by who? the person who was widely agreed to be corrupt? the person who didnt push for any cases and rich and powerful people? Did they provide any evidence they were doing any investigating?

whatever this link is, i get an error when I click it. So i'm not sure what it is.

First admit that if Biden (or even Obama) quid pro quoed Ukraine for political or personal advantage that would be a crime
That is correct. If they engaged in a quid pro quo to trade government policy to only benefit themselves, then that would be an abuse of office. However, if they took actions that benefited america and also happened to benefit themselves, that would not be an abuse of power. In that context motive would be important. Just covering my bases since I don't want to be accused of being a hypocrite if what you are talking about turns out to be something dumb. 


ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,164
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@HistoryBuff

If the company was a honeypot run by the government fraudulently claiming to be a public square which then failed to facilitate the speech which the government objected to it has everything to do with the first amendment.
lmao, no it absolutely does not. You have no right to use twitter. You have no right to information. The 1st amendment doesn't say that. It says you have a right to speak. 
Imagine the government uses a puppet company to develop sound dampening technology which makes it so you can't hear anyone else unless you are within 5 cm of them. Then they deploy that technology only when they detect that someone is about to share information damaging to a government preferred narrative.

Do you claim that people have no right to information? After all you can still speak, all the government is doing is preventing anyone from hearing you right?

After you answer that answer this:

Suppose there is a government with an american constitution on a sparsely populated world in space. People have spread out so that there is hundreds of kilometers between them. There is only one IT company on this planet and that IT company is the only place people go to learn about the politics and events of the world. Then the government puppets that company with agents, proxy stock owners, etc... and uses that company to censor certain information.

Does that violate the 1st amendment?


What weight does it carry when an energy company has connection to the US federal government?
It gives them prestige and legitimacy.
You've moved beyond the realm of reasonable discussion here so I'll drop it.


1) Biden didn't decide to fire the prosecutor. Obama did.
Rumor?
lol what? you think the vice president has the power to put pressure on a foreign government? the VP has basically no power whatsoever, other than what the president says he does.
So no evidence, you just assumed that because the constitution doesn't spell out that a VP can extort a foreign country it can't happen without the president's knowledge and action.


It's a he said she said thing.
lol, so countless people from governments all over the planet agree that Shokin was corrupt.
You are constantly confusing contexts. Whether or not an investigation was ongoing is a "he said she said"

Also:
lol, so countless people from governments all over the planet agree that Shokin was corrupt.
How about you count up to five (with names). I'll wait.


You choose to believe that one person over everyone else.
The balance of evidence aligns with his story.


You really do love conspiracy theories don't you.
I love the truth and would prefer that there were fewer conspiracies in that category.


None before Biden started getting paid and the prosecutor said he was investigating.
there is no evidence joe biden was ever paid
Except for the emails, texts, and testimony.


and there is no evidence the prosecutor was investigating
Except for the prosecutor saying he was investigating after being forced out by someone with financial interests in the target of his investigation. Do you think if you hand out enough false statements I'll just get tired of correcting you and let it stand? I mean that might happen, but also I'm fairly motivated so...


3) Burisma was not under investigation when Biden pushed for Shokin to be removed.
This is disputed as I said.
by who?
Shokin


the person who was widely agreed to be corrupt?
There are millions upon millions of people who think Joe Biden is corrupt.


Did they provide any evidence they were doing any investigating?
There is no question there was an investigation, assets were seized, the lie is that it was officially closed and that somehow meant Burisma was cosmically incapable of bribing Joe Biden to remove the threat.


whatever this link is, i get an error when I click it. So i'm not sure what it is.


First admit that if Biden (or even Obama) quid pro quoed Ukraine for political or personal advantage that would be a crime
That is correct. If they engaged in a quid pro quo to trade government policy to only benefit themselves, then that would be an abuse of office. However, if they took actions that benefited america and also happened to benefit themselves
There is a rule that it can only benefit themselves?

So if I accepted money to approve a permit for a oil pipeline, could I argue it wasn't bribery because oil pipelines benefit people?


In that context motive would be important.
How convenient since motive can so rarely be objectively proved or disproved.