What is the deal with all these indictments?

Author: Greyparrot

Posts

Total: 88
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
Ben shapiro is not an academic and does not submit anything to peer-review.
He is a conservative pundit that writes reactionary and inflammatory opinion pieces and very poorly researched books with unsubstantiated claims.
Also, his debates and arguments are cringey and childish, at best. He makes a lot of assumptions and employs a lot of fallacies and illogical arguments. He primarily seeks underhanded “gotcha!” moments in his debates so that he appears to come out on top; rather than actually engaging with intellectual rigor and honesty.
He might be intelligent, but he’s pretty f---ing dumb.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@FLRW
As a means of comparison, who do you believe makes good political arguments largely devoid of the issues you just listed?
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@cristo71
As a means of comparison, who do you believe makes good political arguments largely devoid of the issues you just listed?
Fareed Zakaria 

cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@IwantRooseveltagain
I’ve always liked Zakaria for the most part, although he has had issues with plagiarism and poor sourcing.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@TWS1405_2
What part of the cited quote did you obviously fail to comprehend!?! -- the authority must be qualified to speak on the subject being discussed...
The part where you assert that someone who's never practiced criminal law a day in their life should be accepted as an authority on a federal criminal indictment.

He does not need to have a trial under his belt, let alone a criminal trial, in order to read, interpret, understand and correctly apply legal analysis debunking the novel legal theories within it.
Correct, and neither does anyone else. The question in dispute here is not whether he is correct, it's whether he is an authority on the subject.

To be an authority on a subject you need to have expertise on that subject. Expertise comes from experience. He has zero experience with criminal indictments whereas you can easily find the opinions of thousands of others who have such experience, therefore it is irrational to gloss over their expertise in favor of Shapiro's non-expertise. That's about as clear of an appeal to authority fallacy as there is.

Do you understand that there are different types of lawyers? Would you go to a criminal defense attorney to represent you in a real estate deal?
Out comes the narcissistic obnoxious ad hominem...
It's not an ad hominem, the insinuation is the logical extension of your stated position. You are invoking someone who's only experience in law is business law as an authority on criminal law. So you are arguing that one type of lawyer should be accepted as being just as qualified in other fields as they are in their own.

The fact that my insinuation, which was an entirely accurate portrayal of what you have argued, came off as so silly and insulting that you read it as an as hominem should really make you think about what you're arguing.

Sadly it won't. Queue the "duh well you're just being a narcissistic denialist blah blah blah"

This topic is about a legal analysis of the novel legal theories in a flawed indictment by one attorney of that criticizing another attorney.
No, that's what I tried to make it about in post 40 where I explained why his analysis was flawed. You responded without a single word of critique of the actual argument I made and instead just called it a dumb analogy and then touted Ben Shapiro as an authority on the subject.

If I agree with his analysis, that translates to his analysis being my analysis since I agree with it in its entirety.
Then respond to my critique of it by offering something better than "duh that was a dumb analogy"

Great argument.
Yup. And you just dropped rebutting it. I'll accept that as your concession. 
Concession of what? You didn't offer a damn thing but assertions that my analogy fails along with insults.

Do you know what an argument is? Can you provide one?

and has argued many times that he doesn't believe presidents should be prosecuted. His biases would be towards Trump.
And there is the concession right there. Thank you. You finally admit it. He is biased against (towards) Trump.
It wasn't a concession genius. Being biased towards Trump is the opposite of being biased against Trump. Inserting parenthesis with your own words saying the opposite of what I just said doesn't change my argument.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@cristo71
I never knew he supported Trump until I looked over his wiki bio.

In July 2022, Zakaria wrote a Washington Post article titled "Forget pronouns. Democrats need to become the party of building things", in which he said "There is plenty of evidence that the Democratic Party has moved left, that it is out of sync with Americans on many of these cultural issues, and that it needs to correct course" and that "This is not a perception problem. It is a reality problem. Democrats need to once more become the party that gets stuff done, builds things and makes government work for people. That’s a lot more important to most Americans than using the right pronouns"

Definitely does not sound like your typical partisan hack.
TWS1405_2
TWS1405_2's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 2,186
3
3
7
TWS1405_2's avatar
TWS1405_2
3
3
7
-->
@Double_R
-->
@<<<TWS1405_2>>>
What part of the cited quote did you obviously fail to comprehend!?! -- the authority must be qualified to speak on the subject being discussed...
The part where you assert that someone who's never practiced criminal law a day in their life should be accepted as an authority on a federal criminal indictment.
Are you being consistently obtuse on purpose or are you truly that fucking dense!!!!!!!!!

FFS, DR, I mean really. No one needs to go to trial to become an authority let alone an expert in the law. 
The education is what matters, not the fucking experience. Many who graduate law school turn right around and become law professors. Explain that one, DR!
If they are good enough to teach new students the law, legal analysis, etc. without any courtroom experience...well shit, then Shapiro has the exact same qualifications to speak on a federal bullshit indictment dreamed up through asinine novel legal theories just to go after Biden's political opponent. 

He does not need to have a trial under his belt, let alone a criminal trial, in order to read, interpret, understand and correctly apply legal analysis debunking the novel legal theories within it.
Correct, and neither does anyone else. The question in dispute here is not whether he is correct, it's whether he is an authority on the subject.
He is an authority. He has a fucking law degree from Harvard ya daft intellectual coward denialist!!!! 

To be an authority on a subject you need to have expertise on that subject. Expertise comes from experience.
WRONG! Expertise comes from education FIRST AND FOREMOST!!! It is precisely when whenI was getting my degrees, students I was with already had the experience but their attorneys and/or employers DEMANDED they get the degree...or else (get let go). 
Applicable experience is earned by applying the education learned. 
If actual experience is required to be an authority, then absolutely no law school would hire a graduate to become a professor to teach that which they already learnt. 

He has zero experience with criminal indictments...
He doesn't need to. He has a law degree that equips him with the requisite knowledge to read, interpret, understand and provide a legal analysis thereof. 

Your intellectual cowardice denialism of this IN-YOUR-FACE fucking FACT knows no bounds. 

Do you understand that there are different types of lawyers? Would you go to a criminal defense attorney to represent you in a real estate deal?
Out comes the narcissistic obnoxious ad hominem...
It's not an ad hominem,
YES, it is. Denialist. 

This topic is about a legal analysis of the novel legal theories in a flawed indictment by one attorney of that criticizing another attorney.
No, that's what I tried to make it about in post 40 where I explained why his analysis was flawed. You responded without a single word of critique of the actual argument I made and instead just called it a dumb analogy and then touted Ben Shapiro as an authority on the subject.
You explained nothing in post #40. Your Cracker Jack Box Ticketmaster analogy is so far off base it was shot towards the Milky Way. You're a Bonafide ignoramus when it comes to the subject of law. And an intellectual coward Dunning-Kruger Effect poster child. 

If I agree with his analysis, that translates to his analysis being my analysis since I agree with it in its entirety.
Then respond to my critique of it by offering something better than "duh that was a dumb analogy"
You provided no critique of it on legal grounds. You provided a childish irrelevant ignoratio elenchi fallacy. 

Great argument.
Yup. And you just dropped rebutting it. I'll accept that as your concession. 
Concession of what? You didn't offer a damn thing but assertions that my analogy fails along with insults.
Concession that you are just too chicken shit, or flagrantly ignorant of the law, in order to provide an actual legal rebuttal against Shapiro's (and by extension, mine) legal analysis of the spurious legal theories of the J6 indictment. 

Do you know what an argument is? Can you provide one?
FUCK YOU! Intellectual coward denialist. 
You know damn well I do, and have, and you're just too fucking ignorant to rebut it.

and has argued many times that he doesn't believe presidents should be prosecuted. His biases would be towards Trump.
And there is the concession right there. Thank you. You finally admit it. He is biased against (towards) Trump.
It wasn't a concession genius. Being biased towards Trump is the opposite of being biased against Trump. Inserting parenthesis with your own words saying the opposite of what I just said doesn't change my argument.
Oh yes it was, dumbass. 

Towards = directed against, "genius"! 





TWS1405_2
TWS1405_2's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 2,186
3
3
7
TWS1405_2's avatar
TWS1405_2
3
3
7
-->
@Double_R
>
@Double_R
-->
@<<<TWS1405_2>>>
What part of the cited quote did you obviously fail to comprehend!?! -- the authority must be qualified to speak on the subject being discussed...
The part where you assert that someone who's never practiced criminal law a day in their life should be accepted as an authority on a federal criminal indictment.
Are you being consistently obtuse on purpose or are you truly that fucking dense!!!!!!!!!

[TWS] FFS, DR, I mean really. No one needs to go to trial to become an authority let alone an expert in the law. 

I used to live in a HOA. I was the only educated person with balls big enough to stand up against not only the big-headed asshole neighbors on the Board of Directors, but also against the most premiere Real Estate Law firm in Portland, Oregon hired to defend the HOA. Want to know what happened?

I forced the law firm to change out the attorneys assigned to our HOA five times over 20 years before the HOA finally fired the firm when I filed a lawsuit against them for their illegal activities, just before I moved to another state (due to my mother being diagnosed with cancer and having to move to care for her). My academic focus/expertise was NOT in real estate. Regardless, the mere fact that I had a degree in the legal arena provided me with the requisite knowledge to read, correctly interpret and apply the Planned Communities Act of Oregon against them. HOAs and the firms that represent them survive because they depend on the homeowners being stupid, uneducated in the law, and cowards to stand up for themselves. Not me. I stood up. Pissed them off to no end. Got five attorneys fired, as well as the firm in the end.

So no, one does not need a "trial," civil or criminal, to be an "authority" on the law. 

I've also successfully advocated for veterans against the Department of Veterans Affairs Compensation and Pensions division with about, um, a 90% success rate for those who served in the Korean War forward. My academic legal background and own personal experience over 10 years fighting that division equipped me to succeed for others where actual veteran service organizations had failed. 

I even filed my own case to the Board of Veterans of Appeals in the early 2000s without asking for a hearing, and based on the written arguments given, I won my case in a record breaking three months when it usually takes years to get a result.

So, I know what I am talking about, and you CLEARLY do not.

You're just an intellectual coward denialist who cannot handle the act that I am right, and you are wrong. 
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
I never knew he supported Trump until I looked over his wiki bio.
More nonsense 

IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6


TWS1405_2
TWS1405_2's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 2,186
3
3
7
TWS1405_2's avatar
TWS1405_2
3
3
7
Spamming threads with nothing more than a link I see...go figure. 

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
The intricacy of certain Dart members on this platform is truly remarkable. Amidst prior misconceptions of them being merely conventional and clichéd partisans, an unexpected glimmer of elegance emerges by chance.

Zakaria supported the April 2017 U.S. missile strike against a Syrian government–controlled airbase. Zakaria praised President Trump's strike and said it was the moment "[he] became president of the United States."


It's amazing how nuanced some Dart members are on this site. When you might have wrongly thought they were just the simple common hackneyed partisan hack, a ray of grace fortuitously appears. 
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@TWS1405_2
No one needs to go to trial to become an authority let alone an expert in the law. 
The education is what matters, not the fucking experience. Many who graduate law school turn right around and become law professors. Explain that one, DR!
If they are good enough to teach new students the law, legal analysis, etc. without any courtroom experience...well shit, then Shapiro has the exact same qualifications to speak on a federal bullshit indictment dreamed up through asinine novel legal theories just to go after Biden's political opponent. 
You do not understand what an authority is in a logical context.

We're talking about logical fallacies, so the question here is about what would render a conclusion to be rational.

The qualification of someone as an authority is relative to the access one has to the needed expertise and the selection process that follows.

If I am feeling ill and I call my cousin who is a nurse and she tells me I'm fine, I am being rational in that situation to accept her as an authority on my ailment because among us she would know far more about this than I. If I later go to a hospital and am diagnosed by a doctor with 30 years practicing medicine who tells me the opposite, my cousin is no longer a valid authority because I now have access to someone with higher crudentials.

When you have access to people with higher crudentials and you decide to accept the word of someone with lesser crudentials, you are exercising selection bias. That entirely defies the concept of an authority.

In this case we're talking about a federal indictment in a highly politicized case. You could right now use Google and find the legal opinion of prosecutors, judges, legal scholars, etc. all over the world weighing in on this. Yet you skipped over all of them to pick some guy on the basis that he passed the bar exam, something literally millions of people in this country have done. That's called cherry picking.

As I have already explained, you keep qualifying him on the basis that you find him smart and you agree with his analysis. If that's the case then you are not listening to him because he's an authority, you are listening to him because you personally determined his analysis to be the correct one. That is not an appeal to authority.

I stood up. Pissed them off to no end. Got five attorneys fired, as well as the firm in the end.

So no, one does not need a "trial," civil or criminal, to be an "authority" on the law.
It's a cool story, but has little to do with the concept of an an authority. The jist is that you managed to be successful in a venture where you were disadvantaged from the standpoint of experience in formal education. Anyone in theory, could accomplish the same, so this argument if anything supports the position that there are no authorities.

Before I said that what makes someone an authority is experience. Clearly with you I need to be more precise so I started using the word crudentials. Crudentials is better because it's all encompassing, it includes experience, education, and most importantly... A track record of getting results.

You don't become an authority among your profession in law, science, medicine, etc with education. Everyone has that. Experience? Everyone has that too. You become a leading expert/authority when you can demonstrate that you know what you're doing by getting results. A lawyer who keeps losing cases is not an authority. A doctor whose patients keep dying is not an authority. 

An authority is someone you have reason to listen to before you know what they are going say. I have no reason to listen to Ben Shapiro about federal indictment over, say, a former attorney general who Trump hand picked himself.

Being an authority does not mean you are right. It means one is being rational to give your analysis greater weight on the basis of your crudentials.

So, I know what I am talking about, and you CLEARLY do not.
Then you should have no problem dismantling my argument without having to resort to insults and bold declarations of how right you are.

So go on, finally... dismantle post 40.

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN’s “Fareed Zakaria’s GPS,” ridiculed Trump for saying Russian President Vladimir Putin “is not going into Ukraine, you can mark it down,” despite the Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014. Trump later clarified that he meant Russia would not attempt such a move if he became president.
“There’s a pattern here,” Zakaria said. “Every time it is demonstrated that Donald Trump is plainly ignorant about some basic public policy issue, some well-known fact, he comes back with a certain bravado, and tries to explain it away with a tweet or a statement. … Usually he adds that the press hates him.”

It sounds like Zakaria knows that Trump is a moron.

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

Fareed Zakaria: Trump is a B.S. artist
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
He also praised Trump. When was the last time you praised Trump for anything? 

Fareed is on a different level.
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
The intricacy of certain Dart members on this platform is truly remarkable. Amidst prior misconceptions of them being merely conventional and clichéd partisans, an unexpected glimmer of elegance emerges by chance.

It's amazing how nuanced some Dart members are on this site. When you might have wrongly thought they were just the simple common hackneyed partisan hack, a ray of grace fortuitously appears. 
Bizarre redundancy here...are we using AI to just write whole posts for us now? Because that sentence was either written by a computer, or by someone who thinks throwing big words into a sentence makes them sound smart. Maybe you did write it...can you give me an idea what a poster who is "intricate" looks like? 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ludofl3x
Ask the FBI.
TWS1405_2
TWS1405_2's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 2,186
3
3
7
TWS1405_2's avatar
TWS1405_2
3
3
7
-->
@Double_R
You’re a dead horse. 

There is nothing in post forty to dismantle. No legal argument rebutting the legal analysis given. 

I’m tired of beating the shit out of the dead horse. 

You’re a waste of time. And my time is more valuable than your intellectual cowardice denialism. 

Go stare at yourself in the mirror whilst listening to “The Best” in the background. 🤡 
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Greyparrot

Well, I am that real old Trump hater guy.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
Well, someone has to hate Trump for there to be some balance in the world.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@FLRW
“As a means of comparison, who do you believe makes good political arguments largely devoid of the issues you just listed?”

Could it be… David Pakman?
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@FLRW
Gore Vidal?
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@TWS1405_2
There is nothing in post forty to dismantle. No legal argument rebutting the legal analysis given. 
Whether Trump merely engaged in a series of isolated actions which should be judged as such, or an intentional scheme is every bit as relevant to the legality of this indictment as anything Shapiro said. Your refusal to even acknowledge that demonstrates every bit of the intellectual cowardice and denialism you baselessly accuse me of.

But that's fine, not like I ever expected you to put together a coherent rebuttal with premises, logic, and a conclusion. The only time anywhere in our thread that you offered anything with a beginning middle and end was when you decided to dedicate an entire post to boasting about your accomplishments, which I frankly do not believe. There is no way someone capable of accomplishing what you claim would find it worthy of their time to spend so much time acting like such a jackass. Every post of yours is nothing but a declaration of your superiority followed by insults, all while accusing me of denialism. It's pathetic, and honestly I only engage with you or of sheer fascination of the hypocrisy you put on display.

Good day.
TWS1405_2
TWS1405_2's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 2,186
3
3
7
TWS1405_2's avatar
TWS1405_2
3
3
7
-->
@Double_R
Again, there was no legal rebuttal in post forty discrediting the sound legal analysis of Shapiro. None. 

No one needs experience n subject A if they are well educated in subject A in order to be an authority on Subject A. I gave you two clear examples of that incontestable fact. 

Your inability to accept the truth here is all on your and your  narcissistic tendencies and intellectual cowardice denialism . 

Here endeth the lesson. 
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@Double_R
narcissistic tendencies and intellectual cowardice denialism
TWS Greatest hits!

IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
Here endeth the lesson. 
Hey, you got the phrase right this time. You’re learning!

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@IwantRooseveltagain
TWS Greatest hits!
I used to think Donald Trump was the king of projection, I think TWS has him beat.