Are the democrats all powerful?

Author: Vegasgiants

Posts

Total: 69
#31
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@secularmerlin
I am not much for the term evil and even if evil is the right word I would instead say that among those in power evil has far to little competition. 
I even would go a step beyond that and say when you get THAT powerful, you get to define what "evil" really is in the most Orwellian way imaginable.
Topic's author
#32
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Greyparrot
Be sure to keep in touch
Topic's author
#33
Vegasgiants
Vegasgiants's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 1,327
3
3
2
Vegasgiants's avatar
Vegasgiants
3
3
2
-->
@Greyparrot
It is good to be the king..

#34
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
when you get THAT powerful, you get to define what "evil" really is in the most Orwellian way imaginable.
Well perhaps not the most Orwellian way I can imagine but certainly in the most Orwellian way the world's powerful can get away with.
#35
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Vegasgiants
I hear they control the courts, the media, the education system, climate science and Hollywood

Oh....and they can rig elections
I think there are two things going on here;

First is that we are seeing the flailing out of desperation of a party that is on the precepis of going extinct. From policy to demographics, everything that feuls the replican party is headed in the wrong direction. Generally, there are one of two ways of dealing with this; you can either adapt to a changing political environment, or you can fight for dear life to preserve things the way they are.

Republicans have chosen the latter.

In 2012 after losing to Obama for the second time the replican party did a self assessment of what went wrong. They determined that the key to their political survival for the future was to focus on appealing to minorities, particularly with regards to a more lenient immigration policy.

Then they elected Trump, the antithesis of everything the report said they needed to do.

When you decide to go down this road you are no longer interested in appealing to the nation with convincing argument, instead they have gone down the path of war. So everything becomes a battle of one side vs the other as opposed to what is right. So for example, instead of winning elections by getting the most votes, they attempt to win by stealing it. But in a system that hinges on legitimacy, this is a tough battle so it's no wonder they keep losing.

Second, being that the republican party has decided convincing argument is no longer it's means of appeal, the base it has maintained is one that is predominately not interested in facts or nuance. So the narrative they are able to sell to their base for political expediency becomes more and more disconnected from reality. This results in a major clash everytime an issue becomes politicized.

Take the classified documents examples. Both Biden and Trump were found to have taken classified documents, but Biden turned his in voluntarily as soon as he discovered them. Trump hid them from the FBI and lied about it. To the crowd uninterested in nuance, all they care to know is that they both had classified documents, but that's not why Trump was indicted. So having tossed the key differences in the trash, all that's left is to conclude they should both be treated the same - a conclusion that is the direct result of willfull ignorance, which is what the party has become reliant on.

So when the republicans are able to do this over and over again, it is easy to see why their base thinks democrats control everything. In some ways they might be right, but that's not because of some political war type thing. It's because the republican party has made a decision to no longer appeal to those who are educated enough to see through their BS, like, say, judges, journalists, professors, scientists, etc. In other words, pretty much anyone qualified to make important decisions.
#36
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Vegasgiants
I hear they control the courts, the media, the education system, climate science and Hollywood

Oh....and they can rig elections


Wow....that's really powerful
Yep, but they have to be careful. Any democrat who suggests the military budget should shrink or that giant international corporations (especially tech and pharama) are out of control lose access to these super powers.

#37
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
Both Biden and Trump were found to have taken classified documents, but Biden turned his in voluntarily as soon as he discovered them.
rofl, it just happened that he "discovered them" (in his garage and all over the place) a few months after the DJT witchhunt. What a coincidence.

#38
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
it just happened that he "discovered them" (in his garage and all over the place) a few months after the DJT witchhunt. What a coincidence.
Let's assume it was not a coincidence.

Did Biden turn them in voluntarily, or did the FBI have to obtain a court approved search warrant to get them back?

Did Biden lie the FBI telling them he didn't have the documents knowing full well he did?

Did Biden order his attornies to falsely claim the area was searched and cleared of any further documents?

Did Biden order the documents he was retaining to be moved from one location to another to avoid the FBI finding them?

Did Biden attempt to delete the video footage showing where the documents were after learning that that very footage was being federally subpoenad?

Did Biden sit around showing and explaining those documents to people who clearly did not have the clearance while admitting her knew they weren't supposed to see them?

And if you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, does anyone, anywhere, have any evidence of this?

It's pretty hard not to see the difference here and figure out why those differences would result in one getting charged and not the other.

But word around here seems to be that I'm the one being intellectually dishonest.
#39
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
it just happened that he "discovered them" (in his garage and all over the place) a few months after the DJT witchhunt. What a coincidence.
Let's assume it was not a coincidence.
Way ahead of you.


Did Biden turn them in voluntarily, or did the FBI have to obtain a court approved search warrant to get them back?
Doesn't matter since it was merely a defensive move to avoid being caught in double standards as they advanced upon a drastic and silly reinterpretation of the law.


Did Biden lie the FBI telling them he didn't have the documents knowing full well he did?
Biden lies about quite a few things. If he ever talked to the FBI in an adversarial sense I'm sure he would lie just as he lied to the American public when he said he was never involved in the 'business' dealings Hunter setup.


Did Biden order the documents he was retaining to be moved from one location to another to avoid the FBI finding them?
He would hardly need to, if they had any secrets he cared about (which is unlikely), his secrets are safe with the FBI. The FBI isn't trying to destroy the American republic by framing him.


And if you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, does anyone, anywhere, have any evidence of this?
The answer is: I don't care.


It's pretty hard not to see the difference here and figure out why those differences would result in one getting charged and not the other.
Oh, so your theory is that these so called differences are why one was charged but not the other.

Well, in your theory; what is the explanation for why nobody asked for Biden's documents until shortly after they started pretending it was a crime to keep documents after leaving office?

It's like if cops only detained blacks and then said "well the whites never give us any trouble" = Yea if you never go after them, they wouldn't would they?


Lets go through it again and evaluate whether they explain differential charging:
Did Biden turn them in voluntarily, or did the FBI have to obtain a court approved search warrant to get them back?
Was Biden ever told to turn them in? Did anyone even know or care that Biden had the documents?


Did Biden lie the FBI telling them he didn't have the documents knowing full well he did?
Was he ever asked what documents he had? Was he swatted upon saying he wasn't sure?


Did Biden order his attornies to falsely claim the area was searched and cleared of any further documents?
Did Biden ever need attorneys to deal with the FBI? (No, the parts of the FBI involved are deep state puppets.)


Did Biden order the documents he was retaining to be moved from one location to another to avoid the FBI finding them?
Did Biden have documents spread all over his properties including offices in Chinatown? Was that to hide them? Did the FBI ever search for them?


Did Biden attempt to delete the video footage showing where the documents were after learning that that very footage was being federally subpoenad?
Did Biden have surveillance of any of the locations where he kept government documents?

Did the FBI know of this supposed attempt of Trump's before charging?


Did Biden sit around showing and explaining those documents to people who clearly did not have the clearance while admitting her knew they weren't supposed to see them?
Is there a mountain of circumstantial evidence that Biden is the type who would sell classified material to the highest bidder?

Did the FBI know of this supposed conversation with Trump before charging?
#40
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Vegasgiants
Once again.

It's the us and them, red and blue fantasy world.


The time to be concerned is when American society ceases to be democratic.

Now as I recall and not so very long ago, a certain Mr Trump and a lot of his fellow red hat people were quite keen on this option.


#41
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4

The time to be concerned is when American society ceases to be democratic.

Now as I recall and not so very long ago, a certain Mr Trump and a lot of his fellow red hat people were quite keen on this option.
Your memory is in error. The red hat people were stirred to rage by the loss of democracy.


#42
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
The red hat people were stirred to rage by the loss of democracy.
That's what is known as a jaundiced version of events.


The red hatted sheep were stirred to rage by the orange dog

Because the orange dog, lost democratically.
#43
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
That rage created the dog, not the other way around.

What do you think is going to happen when you kill their dog?

Ask John Wick what happens.
#44
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
We create our own rage.

I merely suggested that the orange dog stirred the red hatted ragists.

Because the red hatted ragists were easily stirrable.

Whereas sensible people stayed at home, ignored the orange dog, ate their dinner, watched T.V. and then went to bed.


I'll take a look at John Wick later.
#45
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Because the orange dog, lost democratically.
You have no way of knowing that.

#46
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Did Biden turn them in voluntarily, or did the FBI have to obtain a court approved search warrant to get them back?
Doesn't matter since it was merely a defensive move to avoid being caught in double standards
Let's start by reiterating that the central claim here is that Donald Trump and Joe Biden are being treated unequally by the DOJ.

So with that said, Yes, it absolutely matters.

The law doesn't go after people nearly as hard for making a mistake, and for good reason. This is like arguing that the guy who stuffs a bunch of items down his pants, gets to the door and sets of the alarm, then takes off when security tries to stop him should be treated the same as the guy who gets to his car, realizes he had an item in his cart that was not paid for, then goes back inside to give it back.

They're not the same.

Did Biden lie the FBI telling them he didn't have the documents knowing full well he did?
Biden lies about quite a few things.
That's a no.

If he ever talked to the FBI in an adversarial sense I'm sure he would lie
Your hypothetical predictions are not relevant.

Did Biden order the documents he was retaining to be moved from one location to another to avoid the FBI finding them?
He would hardly need to
Again, that's a no

And if you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, does anyone, anywhere, have any evidence of this?
The answer is: I don't care.
Well I hate to break it to you but the DOJ does. It's kind of the defining trait of a just system, which judging by your response you really don't seem to care about, which is kind of an odd thing considering that your entire point here seems to be railing against the DOJ for being unjust.

Oh, so your theory is that these so called differences are why one was charged but not the other.
They're not "so called" differences, they're the literal charges against Trump which Biden has not committed.

Well, in your theory; what is the explanation for why nobody asked for Biden's documents
Could be a number of reasons. For one Biden was found to have about a dozen or so, Trump had over a hundred. Trump also had top secret nuclear documents, Biden's were no where near that serious.

Is there a mountain of circumstantial evidence that Biden is the type who would sell classified material to the highest bidder?
No, and irrelevant. While many speculate, the DOJ is not charging Trump with attempting to sell US secrets.

...until shortly after they started pretending it was a crime to keep documents after leaving office?
Right, back to this.

So despite me listing numerous obvious differences between the two scenarios, and you having no response to them except hypothetical examples where you believe Biden would have done the same thing, you still maintain that Trump's charges are the product of weaponized double standards by the DOJ and not because the actions of these two men were polar opposites in almost every way that matters.

But like you suggested, who cares about evidence right?

If you're going to hand waive away every single difference them of course what remains will be the same. There's nothing impressive nor virtuous about closing your eyes and ignoring reality.
#47
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
The law doesn't go after people nearly as hard for making a mistake, and for good reason. This is like arguing that the guy who stuffs a bunch of items down his pants, gets to the door and sets of the alarm, then takes off when security tries to stop him should be treated the same as the guy who gets to his car, realizes he had an item in his cart that was not paid for, then goes back inside to give it back.

They're not the same.


You are right. The guy forgot he committed a crime and then remedied it on his own immediately. He did not wait decades for security enforcement to beef up.

#48
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
This is like arguing that the guy who stuffs a bunch of items down his pants, gets to the door and sets of the alarm, then takes off when security tries to stop him.
I actually have a much more apt comparison.

One guy takes an item because everyone else is taking items. They don't run when the alarm goes off. They walk confidently.





#49
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
You have no way of knowing that.
Which other elections were stolen in this country?

What a coincidence the first one happened when a grifter like Trump lost. Now all his lawyers are losing their licenses for the fraud they participated in.

And his own daughter wants nothing to do with him and his lies.

#50
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty

Don't forget to send Trump money so he can pay his lawyers. Isn't it terrible to be poor?
#51
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
You are right. The guy forgot he committed a crime and then remedied it on his own immediately. He did not wait decades for security enforcement to beef up.
Do you believe the DOJ's decision to charge Trump but not Biden (or Pence) is at best unfair and at worst prosecutorial abuse? Yes or No?
#52
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
Don't hate the player G. Hate the game.
#53
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
I don't really care about the players involved when this is an indictment on an unfair and broken system of rules for thee but not for me.

Discretionary law enforcement should be safe, legal, and rare. Not the expected outcome.
#54
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
this is an indictment on an unfair and broken system of rules for thee but not for me.
Can you provide a single example of this within this case?

Discretionary law enforcement should be safe, legal, and rare. Not the expected outcome.
There is nothing about an expected outcome which negates your stated vision of proper law enforcement, in fact it falls perfectly in line with it.

Our system of justice is based on applying logic to the evidence. If we look at the evidence here, we should all be able to arrive at the same conclusion as to what should happen. For example, when the defendant is caught red handed with the documents he and his legal team spent months telling the DOJ they didn't have and moving from one location to another to avoid detection, the outcome of that should be predictable.
#55
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
The law doesn't go after people nearly as hard for making a mistake, and for good reason. This is like arguing that the guy who stuffs a bunch of items down his pants, gets to the door and sets of the alarm, then takes off when security tries to stop him should be treated the same as the guy who gets to his car, realizes he had an item in his cart that was not paid for, then goes back inside to give it back.
No, this is like one guy getting arrested for having company paper clips in his pockets vs someone who had an entire stapler down his pants but was never even questioned because he was a 'friend' of the police chief.


And if you think the answer to any of these questions is yes, does anyone, anywhere, have any evidence of this?
The answer is: I don't care.
Well I hate to break it to you but the DOJ does.
No it does not, the evidence on that is clear.


It's kind of the defining trait of a just system, which judging by your response you really don't seem to care about, which is kind of an odd thing considering that your entire point here seems to be railing against the DOJ for being unjust.
The defining trait of a just system is not the obtuse and irrelevant questions regarding whether some people reacted differently to unequal interpretation of the law.

There must be an underlying crime, "resisting arrest" is not sufficient when the arrest would have been unjustified if it had not been resisted. All that nonsense you just spouted when the propaganda is cut away comes down to this simple fact: Trump didn't think he had to turn over the documents and was resisting with lawyers. He was right to resist. Whatever he did in such resistance does not justify the prosecution nor does it move the needle one micron towards away from the obvious double standard.

Trump was the only one who resisted this absurd persecution because he was the only one who was the target of persecution.

Oh, so your theory is that these so called differences are why one was charged but not the other.
They're not "so called" differences, they're the literal charges against Trump which Biden has not committed.
You're pretty good at keeping the false front going, but the freudian slips keep convicting you.

You don't commit charges, you commit crimes. Prosecutors bring charges, but in your mind charges are as good as crimes; at least until the right-tribe figures out the legal system is now a legitimate battleground; you'll probably sing a different tune once they realize that.


Well, in your theory; what is the explanation for why nobody asked for Biden's documents
Could be a number of reasons. For one Biden was found to have about a dozen or so, Trump had over a hundred. Trump also had top secret nuclear documents, Biden's were no where near that serious.
Your misinformation is showing.


So despite me listing numerous obvious differences between the two scenarios, and you having no response to them except hypothetical examples where you believe Biden would have done the same thing, you still maintain that Trump's charges are the product of weaponized double standards by the DOJ and not
The only difference that matters to me is that Trump keeping his own documents is treated as a crime when Trump does it and not when Biden does.


...because the actions of these two men were polar opposites in almost every way that matters.
You're right about that. Biden is a loyal ally of the deep state, Trump isn't. That's the only way that matters now.


But like you suggested, who cares about evidence right?
Certainly not the FBI or Merrick Garland. Hec they don't care about laws or evidence. Double whamy.
#56
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
You have no way of knowing that.
[IwantRooseveltagain] Which other elections were stolen in this country?
I have no way of knowing that... but it's more probable that those that weren't conducted with mass mail in ballots with flawed authentication schemes were accurate than those which were.

So in the later category is 2020 and 2022, and the former is every other election. There was that time they choose the president by committee though after the civil war, that was definitely not democracy, not constitutional, and far more insurrectiony than anything done on Jan 6.

What a coincidence the first one happened when a grifter like Trump lost.
Not a coincidence,  they told you that Trump was a dangerous grifter for the same reason they destroyed American democracy: Trump was a danger to the income and agenda of the deep state / military industrial complex

Common cause explains correlation.


Now all his lawyers are losing their licenses for the fraud they participated in.
When they start to come for the lawyers you know civil war is not far off.
#57
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@FLRW
Don't forget to send Trump money so he can pay his lawyers. Isn't it terrible to be poor
Why would I help pay for his lawyers when they're sending the lawyers to the gulag too? (IwantRooseveltagain is right about that).

What he needs is bullets and a clue what kind of war he's in, but he's a weak old man so that wouldn't help either. I'm going to outlive him, but this illusion of a united nation may not.
#58
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,594
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty

So you are in the 70 percent of Republicans that think Trump is the current President?
#59
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,166
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@FLRW
So you are in the 70 percent of Republicans that think Trump is the current President?
That statistic is almost certainly a lie and I don't think Trump is the current president I think there was no legitimate election in 2020 and 2022.

Non-election doesn't mean default to Trump. (it means American democracy is over and collapse or empire is right around the corner unless elections resume)

#60
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
The only difference that matters to me is that Trump keeping his own documents is treated as a crime when Trump does it and not when Biden does.
I've already explained to you in great detail that the mere keeping of the documents is not what Trump is being charged for, so not only is your premise entirely false but you admit that you do not care about facts or logic.

Biden was found to have had 20 documents marked classified. Trump had 325 including some marked top secret. Yet you paint Biden as a guy with a stapler down his pants and Trump with a few paper clips. The intellectual dishonesty of that comparison is beyond words.

The documents Trump took were far more numerous and far more serious, so of course the archives were more likely to notice them missing. But you ignore this fact because it doesn't suit your narrative. And in ignoring it you pretend there was unequal treatment from the start thereby allowing you to excuse everything that Trump did afterward. It's logical fallacy being used as an excuse to ignore reality.

Indictments are handed out to people who (allegedly) commit crimes. Trump committed crimes. Biden didn't. These are the facts no matter what excuses you make up to ignore them.

There must be an underlying crime, "resisting arrest" is not sufficient when the arrest would have been unjustified if it had not been resisted.
Like many crimes, resisting arrest is a "tack on" crime that isn't always charged. It depends on the totality of the situation, the legitimacy of the underlying arrest being an important consideration.

But Trump defenders have taken this concept to the absolute extreme. Now they say, you can't obstruct an investigation unless a crime is found. Such an absurd notion if accepted would upend or entire justice system.

We don't learn of crimes having been committed unless we investigate them. If the investigation can be obstructed, our ability to uncover them becomes severely restricted and as a result it becomes far more likely that the crime will never be proven. So if for example, my cell phone records are subpoenaed and I know they will prove a crime, I can just delete them. No crime proven so no obstruction.

You are essentially advocating for the legalization of the cover up.

This is a perfect example of why Donald Trump is so dangerous. This is something no one would have argued before, but suddenly Trump puts it out there, his pundits who know better repeat it, and before you know half the country believes it.