Changing Enforcement

Author: whiteflame
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#31
Athias
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@RationalMadman
Some of us like to fight for change and if you say this is insulting and violates the rules, you are making it seem like others are incapable of comprehending that they can leave the site, they know they can but want to change it.
Athias Post #24:
Your only authority is to attempt to persuade them, deal with it, or leave.
This is among the many reasons "seem" is not an argument. And since the implementation, regulation, and enforcement of policy is not subject to a site-wide referendum, but instead a consensus among active moderators, what have I said in my statement that excludes what you've just stated?

#32
Athias
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@TWS1405_2

*FP*

Excuses, excuses of the hypocrisy.  *yawn*

Excuses, more excuses for the hypocrisy.

Projecting those excuses for others onto me, unremarkable. *FP*
I'm grouping these together since they operate on similar "motif." And why would I make excuses for the moderators? I'm simply acknowledging the extent of their authority. Please point out any error in my description.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I give myself no credit in this regard. I'm sure even Sir.Lancelot could find several incidents of you being triggered.
By all means, feel free to list these "several incidents" of my being "triggered."

And I react to disrespect,
You do, and you initiate it as well.

As if you have any authority to give unsolicited options whereas this site is concerned. 
I do not presume any authority. It's simple deduction.

#33
Sir.Lancelot
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@TWS1405_2
Athias is actually pretty chill. Like Savant and Slainte-level chill. 

That said, if anyone’s going to be a mod. I’d rather them have the temperament of whiteflame and Barney. 

Getting into fights with your own community and being hypocritical sets a bad precedent for future mods. 
#34
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@Athias
This is among the many reasons "seem" is not an argument. And since the implementation, regulation, and enforcement of policy is not subject to a site-wide referendum, but instead a consensus among active moderators, what have I said in my statement that excludes what you've just stated?
In that case you have actually said nothing. I misunderstood and thought you were saying to stop bickering and leave if we had an issue.
#35
Best.Korea
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@Athias
I am all for their regulating this site however they see fit
The goal of the site's owner is to attract users to the site to host debates and logical discussions.

While I agree that this site is his property, users arent his private property.

Therefore, to attract users, one must follow a logical path, and cannot simply "dictate" the site any way one wants.

Oromagi is a mod now. He is expected to set an example for others on how to behave.

The number of insults on the site has decreased significantly since the ban on insults.

However, to fullfill the purpose of ban on insults completely, the ban must apply to all cases where insults are irrelevant to the topic.

Insults arent arguments, unless the topic is about insults, such as rap battles.

Appealing to opponent's intelligence or bias is not an argument of any kind, since anyone can do it to anyone and the relevance to the topic is non-existent. 

When in debates, person should focus on the given arguments, not on another person.

I have a long history of using insults, but I am very happy to give up on using insults when everyone agrees to do the same.
#36
Athias
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@RationalMadman
In that case you have actually said nothing. I misunderstood and thought you were saying to stop bickering and leave if we had an issue.
My contention is against the notion that the moderators are somehow in dereliction of their duties by being (allegedly) hypocrites.
#37
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@Athias
It was 1 moderator, not all, and the hypocrisy issue was separate from the fact that their 'new enforcement' is faked anyway. Whatever this 'new enforcement' is just seems to be being louder and more public about warnings.
#38
Athias
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@Best.Korea
The goal of the site's owner is to attract users to the site to host debates and logical discussions.

While I agree that this site is his property, users arent his private property.
I did not suggest anything of the sort. Like in any association, you have the authority to participate with a willing party, bring up a grievance and/or persevere in the midst of grievance, attempt to persuade, or willfully walk away. Because ultimately, when there's conflict, the ball is in the court of the participating member, not the moderation team or staff. It's Mike's property, and he can behave it however he sees fit. Of course, this means that if there are members who maintain a grievance or an objection to how he maintains his property, he could risk alienating and ostracizing existing and prospective members. But that has nothing to do with the authority of the moderators, unless Mike chooses to make it so. Hence, Mike is the "dictator." (I'm not suggesting that Debateart.com behaves like a dictator; I'm only using "dictator" as a metaphor for his proprietary right.)

Oromagi is a mod now. He is expected to set an example for others on how to behave.
I personally agree with this. However, whether we agree or not does not at all qualify, much less modify oromagi's capacity and function as a moderator.

However, to fullfill the purpose of ban on insults completely, the ban must apply to all cases where insults are irrelevant to the topic.

Insults arent arguments, unless the topic is about insults, such as rap battles.

Appealing to opponent's intelligence or bias is not an argument of any kind, since anyone can do it to anyone and the relevance to the topic is non-existent. 

When in debates, person should focus on the given arguments, not on another person.
I agree.

I have a long history of using insults, but I am very happy to give up on using insults when everyone agrees to do the same.
I maintain that one should give up on using insults even when everyone is doing the opposite. It's all about self-discipline.

#39
Athias
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@RationalMadman
It was 1 moderator, not all, and the hypocrisy issue was separate from the fact that their 'new enforcement' is faked anyway. Whatever this 'new enforcement' is just seems to be being louder and more public about warnings.
How would you have them moderate?

#40
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@Athias
How would you have them moderate?
Like whiteflame or Barney.
If someone violates the rules, send them a dm warning them to stop and act accordingly, if they don't.

oromagi has done precisely the exact opposite.
  1. Posting publicly about Best.Korea's comment while pretending to play neutral while secretly taking his message out of context and allowing the community to scrutinize him.
  2. Publicizing personal mod issues by calling out BrotherD.Thomas out and openly.
  3. Putting Greyparrot on blast by once again, publicizing private mod info by warning him to cease a nickname he created for IWRA. While simultaneously ignoring the repeated insults of IWRA and doxxing of Greyparrot's RL career. (Favoritism and hypocrisy.)
But then repeatedly engaging aggressively with TWS by calling him personalized nicknames he came up with, and addressing him as a racist and a transphobe, insulting his intelligence. As well as engaging in cross-thread contamination.

If you think it's just the users that are frustrated with oromagi's actions, consider for a moment that the mods themselves are getting tired of it also.

It's not THE mods. It's the actions and behavior of one mod. Also, keep in mind that I was the one who tried convincing former president Wylted to make oromagi a moderator and the one who wanted oro as a mod. Of all people, Wylted warned this was a bad idea.


Oro has a history of making callout threads too. So just keep that in mind.




#41
Athias
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@Sir.Lancelot
Like whiteflame or Barney.
If someone violates the rules, send them a dm warning them to stop and act accordingly, if they don't.

oromagi has done precisely the exact opposite.
  1. Posting publicly about Best.Korea's comment while pretending to play neutral while secretly taking his message out of context and allowing the community to scrutinize him.
  2. Publicizing personal mod issues by calling out BrotherD.Thomas out and openly.
  3. Putting Greyparrot on blast by once again, publicizing private mod info by warning him to cease a nickname he created for IWRA. While simultaneously ignoring the repeated insults of IWRA and doxxing of Greyparrot's RL career. (Favoritism and hypocrisy.)
But then repeatedly engaging aggressively with TWS by calling him personalized nicknames he came up with, and addressing him as a racist and a transphobe, insulting his intelligence. As well as engaging in cross-thread contamination.

If you think it's just the users that are frustrated with oromagi's actions, consider for a moment that the mods themselves are getting tired of it also.

It's not THE mods. It's the actions and behavior of one mod. Also, keep in mind that I was the one who tried convincing former president Wylted to make oromagi a moderator and the one who wanted oro as a mod. Of all people, Wylted warned this was a bad idea.


Oro has a history of making callout threads too. So just keep that in mind.
Have you brought this to DebateArt.com's attention? (Just to be clear, I mean the user, not the website.)


#42
Sir.Lancelot
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@Athias
I have no reason to believe he would even care.
Whiteflame is the only one who can do anything about it at the moment.

The site owner is rarely online and gives the site freedom to do whatever they want.
#43
RationalMadman
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It is inevitable that over a longer period of time, Barney will actually rise to the top of the moderator hierarchy. It is not because he is a better person, it is not because he is smarter it is not such things necessarily at all (and IQ wise Whiteflame is above Barney) it is because Barney is the natural alpha male of the website, people respect him without realising it, the way he carries himself and uses silence and absence at other times, makes him unpushable, unattainable and have this weird aura that people can't tame or control.

Whiteflame is built different to Barney, he suits being a teamplayer, not a team leader. I can't deny that Whiteflame has been the most successful mod so far in every department but I also think that Barney is playing a role powerbottoming things at times. I regard Whiteflame as something like a delta male, it would be a zeta/theta male as in a very chill guy happy to play middle of the hierarchy.

Oromagi is an omega male, he does not suit leadership whatsoever. He is wired to be a free spirit that loathes needing to stick to the status quo and his approach is in-your-face and not giving a damn as opposed to cunning and sleuthy like Sigmas or Gammas are.

You can think this is bullshit, you can think this is cringe but it is inevitable. If you put someone who isn't alpha in a leadership position for too long, problems arise not necessarily due to them alone but due to the fact they don't have the aura or approach that keeps those directly beneath them 'in line'.

If you are curious who else is an alpha male here it's barely anyone, even I am more sigma than alpha. Most of us are introverted and weird, we don't have alpha aura. Barney is one of the only alpha people on this website at all and suits being the chief moderator. He, as chief moderator, wouldn't be having people run amok like Oromagi is. I am sure of it. The problem with alpha people isn't their leadership ability, it's their lack of deep thinking. This is why the second-in-command to an alpha should be a very deep thinking beta or sigma. The beta will be softer and needs to be listened to actively to hear the thoughts, the sigma will be a brat that keeps challenging the alpha whenever needed but can lead to obvious friction due to the fact that alphas are the exact type that piss sigmas off and vice versa, just by being who and what they are.
#44
Sir.Lancelot
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oromagi would definitely be perfect as President.
The moderator role isn't suitable for him.
#45
RationalMadman
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oromagi would definitely be perfect as President.
I disagree to that too. However, I cannot proceed without completely roasting him and he would only retaliate in kind.

He does not suit leadership as anything. He suits being a site user who doesn't give a shit well. I actually think people see me as what I see Oromagi as but they are wrong about me. I never ever have been given a chance to prove that yet. I'd need one role, one chance and it would be proven.
#46
Sir.Lancelot
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I disagree to that too. However, I cannot proceed without completely roasting him and he would only retaliate in kind.

He does not suit leadership as anything. He suits being a site user who doesn't give a shit well. I actually think people see me as what I see Oromagi as but they are wrong about me. I never ever have been given a chance to prove that yet. I'd need one role, one chance and it would be proven.
If you're really this persistent.

There is a way for you to become President.
#47
Athias
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@Sir.Lancelot
I have no reason to believe he would even care.
Maybe he wouldn't; maybe he would; you haven't given him the opportunity one way or the other.

Whiteflame is the only one who can do anything about it at the moment.
That may be, but Whiteflame is in a difficult position, especially considering the moderation staff he oversees. There's already expressed disinterest, and even in advent of interest, it's his "responsibility" for lack of a better term to ensure the "right fit." And I'm not sure, even in light of all this, that oromagi isn't the right fit.

#48
ADreamOfLiberty
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It is inevitable that over a longer period of time, Barney will actually rise to the top of the moderator hierarchy. It is not because he is a better person, it is not because he is smarter it is not such things necessarily at all (and IQ wise Whiteflame is above Barney) it is because Barney is the natural alpha male of the website, people respect him without realising it, the way he carries himself and uses silence and absence at other times, makes him unpushable, unattainable and have this weird aura that people can't tame or control.
You should write short stories instead of debating, so much drama....


#49
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Thanks, I agree but they tend to be all effort for very little gain, I'm so creative and boundary-pushing, publishers would only want my extensive nonfictional stuff that I may release later in life.

I prefer to write raps/poems to short stories.
#50
Sting
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how do i report people. 

a user named rationalmacmahon threatened me
#51
Best.Korea
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@RationalMadman
@Sting
There are moderators that deal with such issues. I would of course say that you two either try resolving this problem either simply dont engage with one another anymore.

Threats, if serious, are a problem.
However, if you are talking about that comment in the rap battle, it doesnt exactly rise to the level of some serious threat (threat to life or threat with violence).

In fact, the comment itself doesnt contain any specific threat.
#52
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@Best.Korea
Don't @ me and enable a troll ty.
#53
Best.Korea
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@Athias
I maintain that one should give up on using insults even when everyone is doing the opposite. It's all about self-discipline.
I was raised in the world where you either bully either get bullied. To me, morality of self-discipline has no meaning, and those practicing it often will suffer as much as those who are often not practicing it.
#54
Barney
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tl;dr:
Personal attacks and harassment, particularly when they done over a prolonged period of time and target specific member(s) of the site, are ban-worthy offenses.

Any questions?

31 days later

#55
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@Barney


Mr. Barney,

So,  if I call someone "Bible Stupid," and "Bible ignorant," like 99 percent of the pseudo-christian crowd within this forum, other than you of course, is this an infraction where I "personally" didn't call them stupid and ignorant?

Inquiring minds want to know.
#56
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Lol Barney isn't a pseudo-christian? Well that has got to be a relief to him.
#57
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@Best.Korea
Are you saying "threat to life or threat with violence" like it's a bad thing?
#58
Barney
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Good questions!

Calling an individual Bible Stupid or Bible Ignorant is not as bad as just calling them stupid or ignorant in general, since it is referring to a topical subset of knowledge. That said, repetition of it can over time make it problematic; especially if using cross thread contamination (that someone misquoted the Bible some weeks ago, is not something to bring up in every biblical discussion to which they engage).

Insulting public figures is of course protected speech. Groups in general as well, so long as you’re not targeting the individual who is a member. E.g., men are pigs, so you’re a filthy stupid pig for being male. Ideally even while we have bias against certain groups, we should give fellow site members the benefit of the doubt that they are an exception. So if you know a fellow site member is a cop, you should not be proclaiming ACAB, even while you may fairly say in general terms that cops are bastards. This gets into the ‘not all men’ area of discussion, since so long as the accusation was not made against all men then it’s pointless deflection to remind people there are exceptions (that Tom Hiddleston exists, does not single handedly defeat the patriarchy).
#59
Barney
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@whiteflame
@oromagi
Anything to add to my response to Brother’s post?
Topic's author
#60
whiteflame
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@Barney
Seems about right to me. I think it can become easy to start harassing someone with the same statement over and over just because it’s not precisely a personal attack, but it can and does drift into murky territory under repetition and is just used everywhere.