For DavidAZ: Christian Heaven Question

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Whenever someone brings up god's love, the problem of evil, free will, etc., I get started thinking about the Christian heaven. The Christian hell is portrayed all over the place in popular culture, for centuries. I think it's because we know quite well what it feels like to suffer! Your Bosch paintings, your renaissance literature, all the way to today, there's no shortage of versions of hell. What about the Christian heaven? Here's a restatement of a topic I did a while ago, and not a lot of serious Christians or believers engaged with it honestly. Obviously open to all.

I can illustrate the problem with the concept of Christian heaven using a mixed family and mixed 'state of graces' or whatever the actual condition is called for getting into heaven (some say you have to be free of sin, some say you just have to accept Jesus, depends on the doctrine, as with all things Christian). Here's the problem, I was wondering how theists solve it, because if it remains unsolved, then as far as I can tell the only good thing about heaven is that it isn't hell. Tertullian agrees. 

As a Christian, you fall in love with someone who let's say is Jewish. You go through your lives together, have three children, one of who decides they don't believe in any gods, one of whom decides to be Jewish, one of who is a Christian. For the most part you all lead good lives, by most measures. Then, you get sick and pass away and find yourself in heaven, or right on the doorstep. Your judgement is meted out, and congrats, you get to go to heaven. "So...will my wife be here? I mean maybe not now, but once she passes away. And what about my kids?" you ask, understandably. 

St. Peter (I'm ex Catholic!) responds "Sorry, but they cannot get in, at least two of the three children and your wife do not accept Jesus. Good thing for you, and that one kid, you were smart, and accepted him, because otherwise, it would have been hell for you." Wait a minute, you ask, how is my heaven not only eternally missing 60% of my family, but knowing that 60% is being eternally tortured in a lake of fire?

What is the answer? Here are the options I came up with. Please feel free to add or comment.

  • (A) No, don't be silly. We're going to give you perfect copies of those people, except they're going to be Christians this time! (And thereby would not be copies; would you know? Would you not eventually notice your Jewish wife is a Christian now?)

  • (B) It only seems bad now. When you get inside, we're going to wipe your mind and all your earthly memories, you won't think about them at all! You're going to spend eternity singing praises to god and not remembering anything about your family, friends, or life, but it's really going to feel so good, you won't care about them at all. (In this version of heaven, the entirety of YOU isn't in heaven; the part that loved your family, the part that had friends, the part that experienced your entire life is gone and replaced with a hymn singing angel instead)

  • (C) Well, I'm afraid those are the rules. All the good deeds and other stuff, it's all canceled out by the fact they didn't believe in Jesus, and the rules are pretty clear. Sorry man, should have done a better job evangelizing I guess. (Now if you remember them at all, you spend eternity in sadness except you're in heaven)

  • (D) No, of course not. They're good people, they lived good lives, so they can get in. (Except now Christian heaven isn't just for Christians, because they're letting in two Jewish people and an atheist who do NOT believe in Jesus)

How does a Christian in a mixed family settle this issue?

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Have at it!
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How is this not a call out thread?   Has DavidAZ agreed to be addressed this way?
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Good questions and probably ones that I will have to chew on for a while.

A simple answer, for now, is that heaven is for the people that have the name of Jesus applied to their lives (I.E. baptism) and have the spirit of God (Holy Ghost) dwelling in them.  The idea of salvation is not just belief or a proclamation, but a lifestyle change, one that pleases God.  There definitely will be a criteria for heaven.  If there was not a standard, then heaven would be just like Earth, except for the "really bad" people are not there, you know, rapists, pedophiles, Hitler, etc.

Give me a little while to dig through things and I'll see what I can come up with.
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Of course, and I don't think my list is exhaustive or covers all the bases, so if there's another option, please feel free to add it to the discussion. 
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How is this not a call out thread?   Has DavidAZ agreed to be addressed this way?
We are good.

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@DavidAZ
heaven is for the people that have the name of Jesus applied to their lives (I.E. baptism) and have the spirit of God (Holy Ghost) dwelling in them.  The idea of salvation is not just belief or a proclamation, but a lifestyle change, one that pleases God.  There definitely will be a criteria for heaven.  If there was not a standard, then heaven would be just like Earth, except for the "really bad" people are not there, you know, rapists, pedophiles, Hitler, etc.
Does this mean you think it's the option where the person who died knows his family isn't ever getting there? Jews and atheists don't meet your criteria as laid out here. 

As to the bolded, isn't the appeal of Christianity that these people CAN get in there, provided they accept Jesus sincerely right before death (like the other two people crucified with Jesus did)? That everything can be forgiven, I mean, is the appeal. I mean the place has to be LOADED with priests that died, right? So you could, theoretically, end up in a heavenly mansion but you find out there are only former sex offenders on your block in heaven, and you start to think "Can I relocate somehow, is there a heavenly real estate agent who can help me get this mansion off my hands and move to someplace with less sex offenders?"
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Sorry.  I dragged my feet on this one.

The really bad people is tongue in cheek because it always seems that people like to see themselves as good since they are not like the "really bad" people.  The idea about salvation is that there is not a threshold of sin that keeps us from it.  It is the fact that we don't have the identity of Jesus applied to our lives that keeps us from heaven.  So can God forgive all sins?  Yes.  Does he allow forgiveness to all sinners?  No.  There are some that reject and deny God to where God literally calls them reprobate or rejected of God.  Who are these people?  God only knows exactly but I'm sure it's not people like you or me.  These are people that knew God and denies him later (Not like you.  You never knew God. I'll explain if you want.) or people that are so vile like homosexuals who are whole heartedly into the gay stuff and pedophiles.  These are people that have no conscience and the voice of God is shut out completely.

I dug around a little about Heaven and it seems that it matches  B & C.  There is not a lot of scripture on heaven anyways, but I would assume that the connection you have with God will make the connections with anyone on Earth look wimpy, therefore the immense love you have for your family would be dwarfed by God's love.  This is my theory only because I really don't know what heaven will be like.
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No problem, it's not an easy question. Couple of interesting things here.

These are people that knew God and denies him later (Not like you.  You never knew God. I'll explain if you want.) 
This would allow for all the people who predate Jesus to be in heaven, even those who had no idea who he was. Can you point me to this in scripture? Because as I recall, the scripture does have Jesus saying there's no way to get to God unless it's through him (I think it's in John somewhere, near the 3:16 verse). These two things seem contradictory to me (your position and the scriptural one). Can you help me understand where you see this? Also, ZERO chance I'm getting into heaven if there is one, but that's nice of you :). I have a pretty good grip on the character in the bible, and not only do I not believe he exists, if he did, I find him immoral and unworthy of worship.

These are people that knew God and denies him later or people that are so vile like homosexuals who are whole heartedly into the gay stuff and pedophiles.  These are people that have no conscience and the voice of God is shut out completely.
I took out the parenthetical here just for clarity. Didn't god make homosexuality an option? 

And what about the homosexual Christians? The ones who desperately pray to be different, to the point of tears, because they feel so guilty? Or the ones who aren't pedophiles? 

I would assume that the connection you have with God will make the connections with anyone on Earth look wimpy, therefore the immense love you have for your family would be dwarfed by God's love. 
Isn't the love we have for family and friends a massive part of who we are though? I treasure the fuck out of my relationship with both my kids. I don't want to be in any dimension where I don't even remember having it. Why would anyone, I think. It's just weird how good a grip humans have on SUFFERING (look at how many different hells we can imagine), but almost none of paradise that sound appealing. 
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This would allow for all the people who predate Jesus to be in heaven, even those who had no idea who he was. Can you point me to this in scripture? Because as I recall, the scripture does have Jesus saying there's no way to get to God unless it's through him (I think it's in John somewhere, near the 3:16 verse). These two things seem contradictory to me (your position and the scriptural one). Can you help me understand where you see this? Also, ZERO chance I'm getting into heaven if there is one, but that's nice of you :). I have a pretty good grip on the character in the bible, and not only do I not believe he exists, if he did, I find him immoral and unworthy of worship.
I think I confused the subject here.  What I was referring as heaven is probably different than what you have in your mind.  What I mean by heaven is where the Christian people will go to.  There is an everlasting "paradise" for old testament people that I can only assume is something similar.  Again, there is not a lot on this subject.

So you are correct that the scripture says that no man comes to the father except through Jesus.  This is in reference to the baptism that is needed. That heaven requirement started after Jesus' resurrection.  Anything before that was through a different testament and different requirements.

As for you knowing God, I will beg to differ only from what you told me of your background.  You were a catholic.  The Catholics don't follow the Bible.  The Catholics never had God in their church and therefore, no one there really knew God. They knew of God or at least what they heard from the priests, but the concept of God was skewed and warped and it never really showed who God was.  That is also why I asked who the Christian couple was at your work that you went to church with.  Same concept.  If they didn't follow the Bible, then they couldn't have known God too (I am only assuming that this is the case here).

So in your case, how can you turn away from from God or tell someone you don't know that you do not believe in him?  That's why I am saying that you are not the reprobate that I was referring to.

Let me clarify, I do not think Catholics are evil.  They just don't understand God and salvation.

I took out the parenthetical here just for clarity. Didn't god make homosexuality an option? 

And what about the homosexual Christians? The ones who desperately pray to be different, to the point of tears, because they feel so guilty? Or the ones who aren't pedophiles?
I know this is opening a can of worms with you, but there is no such thing as a gay Christian.  IF anyone was born that way, then they would have to turn from their "gayness" to become a Christian, just like a man who is always hot headed, he would have to control himself.

A little scripture reference here:

Romans 1: 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Read it in context and it is a bad thing to be homo. God gave them up to vile affections. If there is any reason that God created a gay guy it is because He let that guy go after his own lusts.

Isn't the love we have for family and friends a massive part of who we are though? I treasure the fuck out of my relationship with both my kids. I don't want to be in any dimension where I don't even remember having it. Why would anyone, I think. It's just weird how good a grip humans have on SUFFERING (look at how many different hells we can imagine), but almost none of paradise that sound appealing. 
I agree that I will die and kill for my children.  I just don't really know what heaven will be like to even make a statement about it.  I would only say for myself, that if I know what it takes to go to heaven and I don't want to go to hell, then I would do my best to make sure my kids are on the right path by the time they leave the nest.


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 I know what it takes to go to heaven and I don't want to go to hell
This gets to my point: the main thing that's good about heaven is you know it isn't hell. Doesn't that seem weird? I will never sign up for anything that would in any way jeopardize that relationship, and the idea of something else being so amazing I completely forget that my kids exist, I'm going to pass on it. If hell wasn't an option, let's say, would you sign up for completely forgetting your entire earthly existence? I bet deep down the answer is a little troubling, I know it was for my mom when I asked her this question, when she was  upset that I'm an atheist, raising children who don't have any religion. It was her being so upset, to the point of tears, at the idea of spending her afterlife without me or my children than brought this question up initially. 

What I mean by heaven is where the Christian people will go to.  There is an everlasting "paradise" for old testament people that I can only assume is something similar
Who's in charge of the paradise for old testament folks? And, do you think that the people who existed prior to the old testament, and people who lived on entirely undiscovered continents when the old testament was written (I presume you concede these people were also created by god), do they have their own heavens, or are they in hell? I know there's not a lot of official dogma on this topic, so I'm really just curious as to how you think about it. It would seem inconsistent with the idea that you have to have god or Jesus or have been baptized to get in. Wouldn't it also create a question of god's honesty with the hebrews? If he's in charge of multiple paradises that all have different entry criteria, then why is the bible so strict on how to get in? That's one question. If he's NOT in charge of, let's say, some Aboriginal or Native American heaven, then he's not the only god. 

As for you knowing God, I will beg to differ only from what you told me of your background.  You were a catholic.  The Catholics don't follow the Bible.  The Catholics never had God in their church and therefore, no one there really knew God. They knew of God or at least what they heard from the priests, but the concept of God was skewed and warped and it never really showed who God was.  That is also why I asked who the Christian couple was at your work that you went to church with.  Same concept.  If they didn't follow the Bible, then they couldn't have known God too (I am only assuming that this is the case here).
But I've read the bible, I'll admit not exhaustively and not in some time, but I've read a very large portion of it (you can keep all of the begetting early on, that's boring unless you're going to show the actual begetting :)). Can't someone get to know god that way? It's his word, purportedly. THe problem, I'm sure you see, is that every stripe of Christian, from Catholic on down, all say they're following the bible, and as yet no one has presented a reliable way to pick the right one. I figured taking all the outside influence away and just reading the words on the page was the best place to start. If the book is god's word, essentially an instruction manual for Christians, then why would I need someone else to tell me what THEY think it means? Why isn't my view as valid?

God gave them up to vile affections. If there is any reason that God created a gay guy it is because He let that guy go after his own lusts.
So god created the gay guy, knowing he was gay, and he's mad at the gay guys for being gay? I'm sorry, I'm not following here.  As it stands, that seems exceptionally cruel, even for god, to create a person in such a way that they can choose between being miserable and lonely and a liar (a sin!) for their whole life, OR, they can burn forever in a lake of fire, for being exactly how they were made. I have to disagree that there are no gay Christians, I've known two (not counting clergy). You're making a "No True Scotsman" argument here, but also ignoring the tenet 'judge not lest ye be judged,' no? 
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This gets to my point: the main thing that's good about heaven is you know it isn't hell. Doesn't that seem weird? I will never sign up for anything that would in any way jeopardize that relationship, and the idea of something else being so amazing I completely forget that my kids exist, I'm going to pass on it. If hell wasn't an option, let's say, would you sign up for completely forgetting your entire earthly existence? I bet deep down the answer is a little troubling, I know it was for my mom when I asked her this question, when she was  upset that I'm an atheist, raising children who don't have any religion. It was her being so upset, to the point of tears, at the idea of spending her afterlife without me or my children than brought this question up initially. 
I think it is more of an understanding to choose between reward or punishment and not that one looks bad so I will choose the other.  To say if hell wasn't an option is moot because it is the alternative. Also, I would die inside just like your mom if my children decided to not follow the Bible and choose this world instead of God.  But at the end of the day, I have to choose for myself and just because I don't want it to be this way, doesn't mean it won't.  I know this is not what you believe but someday there will be a judgement day where all will stand before God, including myself.  I will have to answer to him on how I directed my life.  My kids will have to answer for themselves. In my mind, hell would be complete separation from anything good including God, children, parents, life, hope, etc.  So in this case, hell would be a lose all and heaven would be a better chance at "winning".

Who's in charge of the paradise for old testament folks? And, do you think that the people who existed prior to the old testament, and people who lived on entirely undiscovered continents when the old testament was written (I presume you concede these people were also created by god), do they have their own heavens, or are they in hell? I know there's not a lot of official dogma on this topic, so I'm really just curious as to how you think about it. It would seem inconsistent with the idea that you have to have god or Jesus or have been baptized to get in. Wouldn't it also create a question of god's honesty with the hebrews? If he's in charge of multiple paradises that all have different entry criteria, then why is the bible so strict on how to get in? That's one question. If he's NOT in charge of, let's say, some Aboriginal or Native American heaven, then he's not the only god. 
God obviously created Adam and Eve and from there man procreated.  The flood knocked it down to eight.  From there society came from the "fertile cresent" in the middle east and migrated after the Tower of Babel.  At that point, there was no known testament to follow.  We know that Moses did offer sacrifice, so there was some sort law to abide by. When the Israelites were wondering to the promised land, God had them destroy certain nations and said it was judgement.  How can there be judgement with out a law?  Also in the case of Jonah going to Nineveh, he preached about destruction and they repented.  What law did they break and how did they repent?  This tells me that there was some sort of law given early to all mankind that didn't include the Mosaic law.  This had to be a very generic law, similar to 10 commandments or so that would make society operational.  There are tons of myths and legends that line up with the bibical account of creation and the flood.  This is because it all came from one source.  Why wouldn't a typical standard of living come from the same source?

With this in mind, there would be some sort of afterlife reward and punishment for all, in the same place, not including the church.  The church is specifically the "bride of Christ" so I am going to assume that their place in the afterlife has a higher importance.

If the book is god's word, essentially an instruction manual for Christians, then why would I need someone else to tell me what THEY think it means? Why isn't my view as valid?
It's not that your view point is invalid, it's that we need all need help and direction.  God made his plan in such a way that he wants us to be lead by a pastor or preacher.
 1Cor 1:21 . . .it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The other problem is that we can miss things unless God reveals it to us.  A simple thing is the scripture of Acts2:38.  This specially states how someone is to be saved, but since we have been so indoctrinated with bad "Christian" doctrine, we will skip right over this verse.  It has been told to me many times that when someone reads the Bible before they come to God, it doesn't really make sense until it comes from the preacher.  This is why it's important to go to the right church that preaches Bible and not tradition.  Again, the same reason that I say, you have not known God.

So god created the gay guy, knowing he was gay, and he's mad at the gay guys for being gay? I'm sorry, I'm not following here.  As it stands, that seems exceptionally cruel, even for god, to create a person in such a way that they can choose between being miserable and lonely and a liar (a sin!) for their whole life, OR, they can burn forever in a lake of fire, for being exactly how they were made. I have to disagree that there are no gay Christians, I've known two (not counting clergy). You're making a "No True Scotsman" argument here, but also ignoring the tenet 'judge not lest ye be judged,' no?
Again, can of worms because you think gays were born that way.  But to clarify, God does not create gay people or make them gay. I was giving lame examples to say that in any instance that God will not accept a man who is gay and that anyone who has dabbled in the gay life has to turn away from it be a Christian.  The people that you know are not real Christians, they are counterfeit.  Sorry.  They may be nice people and all but they cannot be a Christian and be gay.  You will never where being gay is ever okay in the Bible.

The whole "judge not" is pulled way out of context for people to do what they want and don't want to be condemned.  It is referring to condemning others for the things that you do.  Being a hypocrite, not that you can't say what is right or wrong.  
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With this in mind, there would be some sort of afterlife reward and punishment for all, in the same place, not including the church.  The church is specifically the "bride of Christ" so I am going to assume that their place in the afterlife has a higher importance.
So you believe the afterlife isn't limited to Christians, just that Christians get the best heaven? I'm not trying to sound glib, I just want to read it as you intend it. 

But to clarify, God does not create gay people or make them gay.
Hm. Wouldn't he HAVE to create gay people for them to exist? If not, then at the very least, wouldn't he know they'd be gay? I don't know how that doesn't end up with god being responsible for it. And if it was such a problem, I always wonder why did he even make it a possibility by design? I know you don't have the answer to that last question (it's really more an engineering question), but I'm curious as to how god is absolved of authorship. 

  Sorry.  They may be nice people and all but they cannot be a Christian and be gay. 
I hear you, and to be honest, my understanding of Christianity agrees with you. It's just difficult to understand why they'd even want to be Christians, it'd seem they've been betrayed by every level of their belief, from their understanding of their creation (former understanding I guess) to their pewmates who suddenly see them as vile creatures worthy of scorn and shunning. Hard to see people heartbroken and rejected by their family, too, over something like that. I almost said it's not a big deal, being gay, but clearly it's a big deal to a lot of non-gay people I guess. 

 This is why it's important to go to the right church that preaches Bible and not tradition.
How'd you pick the 'right church', if I can ask? And how would or could I have known if mine was wrong? What if I'd kept going to Catholic church, or the evangelical one, and they were both wrong. Sounds like you think I'd end up in hell, is that incorrect?

Also in this passage of your post, you say the bible might not make sense if it doesn't come from the right preacher. But isn't that what the entire protestant movement was kind of about? Removing that interlocutor between god and his people so they can have a personal relationship with him? 
The other problem is that we can miss things unless God reveals it to us. 
Do you mean we can miss things in the bible unless god reveals them to you? Because I don't understand why some sort of outside factor, basically a decoder ring, would be required to understand what I would conclude you think is the most important piece of writing ever written. Think of it this way: let's say a tribesman from a remote Amazonian jungle village happens upon a bible in his hunt one day. The bible is in a language he understands, but there's no preacher around. Isn't the point that if he reads the bible and follows it, he's now a Christian and saved, even if he doesn't know any preachers? 
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So you believe the afterlife isn't limited to Christians, just that Christians get the best heaven? I'm not trying to sound glib, I just want to read it as you intend it. 
Correct. It's just my assumption considering that God created all things for the church to happen.
Colossians 1:16 states that all things were created for Jesus.  The whole point of Jesus was to "buy" redemption for mankind.  The church was God's plan the whole time.  It would make sense to me that the church would be considered the "bride of Christ" to have more eminence.  But, I suppose it really doesn't matter.  I can't change what God actually has in mind.

Hm. Wouldn't he HAVE to create gay people for them to exist? If not, then at the very least, wouldn't he know they'd be gay? I don't know how that doesn't end up with god being responsible for it. And if it was such a problem, I always wonder why did he even make it a possibility by design? I know you don't have the answer to that last question (it's really more an engineering question), but I'm curious as to how god is absolved of authorship. 
Maybe I wasn't clear.   A man will choose to lust after another man's body just like he can choose to lust after a woman's body, or a child's body or a animals body or a pillow shaped like a "lolli".  This does not mean he was born that way or that God designed his lusts towards men.  All men lust after something and we all have to reign in our lust so it doesn't hurt ourselves and/or others.

How'd you pick the 'right church', if I can ask? And how would or could I have known if mine was wrong? What if I'd kept going to Catholic church, or the evangelical one, and they were both wrong. Sounds like you think I'd end up in hell, is that incorrect?
I was partially raised in it.  I stayed and one of my brothers is like you.  The difference between him and me is that I followed the Biblical way and was filled with God's spirit. In order to go to the correct church, you have to be led or called of God.  Most people that come in to the church will have a testimony that they were somehow drawn to it.  There are other factors which guide our lives besides logic and emotion.

To answer your question, yes, you would end up in hell if you continue like you are or keep going to the catholic church.  I know this is a complete turn off to any religion because you love your parents, but I didn't write the Bible.  We were given it and we are to follow it.  Not trying to be mean here.

Also in this passage of your post, you say the bible might not make sense if it doesn't come from the right preacher. But isn't that what the entire protestant movement was kind of about? Removing that interlocutor between god and his people so they can have a personal relationship with him? 
Protestantism was done to protest the Catholic church.  I am not a protestant.  My religion never came from the catholic church, the catholic church came from us. 

As for a preacher, I'll put it this way, you wouldn't accept the teachings of marriage from a divorced man would you?  He would have to know what he is talking about.  In order to know if its right, check on what he says with the Bible. 

Do you mean we can miss things in the bible unless god reveals them to you? Because I don't understand why some sort of outside factor, basically a decoder ring, would be required to understand what I would conclude you think is the most important piece of writing ever written. Think of it this way: let's say a tribesman from a remote Amazonian jungle village happens upon a bible in his hunt one day. The bible is in a language he understands, but there's no preacher around. Isn't the point that if he reads the bible and follows it, he's now a Christian and saved, even if he doesn't know any preachers?
Certain things, yes.  I would say that God is not going to reveal his word to an ungrateful person who will discard it.  Typically, he knows their heart and their desire to be right, to "fill the void" kind of thing.  But Salvation is very simple and many people confuse it.  If a man has obtained the "salvation message", he still needs a preacher to baptize him.  God will then lead that person to a group of people that believes like he does.

To the Amazon guy, God can make a way.  Again, this is a "what if" question to a scenario that doesn't exist and only comes up to prove a point, but it will never be applied to real life.



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Maybe I wasn't clear.   A man will choose to lust after another man's body just like he can choose to lust after a woman's body, or a child's body or a animals body or a pillow shaped like a "lolli".  This does not mean he was born that way or that God designed his lusts towards men.  All men lust after something and we all have to reign in our lust so it doesn't hurt ourselves and/or others.
I don't choose to lust after women, it's just something that happens, though. Know what I mean? Something about a certain type of woman just jingles that bell. This week was that Belgian shot put woman who ran the hurdles, and yeah, I was as surprised as you are. But let me tell you bro, she could GET IT. :). In all seriousness, I'm just having trouble understanding your understanding of god's responsibility as the author and knower of all things for all time. Kinda seems to me if it was going to be a big deal to him, then he would have known about it early and fixed it, if indeed he didn't WANT to torture some portion of his creation forever, and just feel right about it. 

I was partially raised in it.  I stayed and one of my brothers is like you.  The difference between him and me is that I followed the Biblical way and was filled with God's spirit. In order to go to the correct church, you have to be led or called of God.  Most people that come in to the church will have a testimony that they were somehow drawn to it.  There are other factors which guide our lives besides logic and emotion.
The bolded part was the most likely answer. After all, I didn't choose to be Catholic, I just came from a line of them. And you see a vanishingly small number of true "conversions" from faith to faith, like how many Catholics do you know that become Muslims, right? Hereditary is the most common way people end up in churches and faiths. So lucky, then, that you ended up in the right one! The problem still is that every church proclaims themselves to be the right one, right? Which probably leads to your assertion that you must be led or called by god himself to the right church, if in fact you weren't born there. Doesn't this then put the responsibility on god to call or lead his creation to the right church? Makes me wonder why there are so many competing denominations, because they can't all be right, in fact, all of them save one have to be wrong, which means an awful lot of people who think they're in good shape are in for an unpleasant surprise. Does it make you sad to think your brother is going to hell, and when you're in heaven you'll forget about him? 

As for a preacher, I'll put it this way, you wouldn't accept the teachings of marriage from a divorced man would you?  He would have to know what he is talking about.  In order to know if its right, check on what he says with the Bible. 
I don't think being divorced necessarily disqualifies you from knowing something about marriage. And you say in order to know he's right, I need to check what he says in the bible...but also say that I can't fully understand the bible without a preacher to interpret it or help me along. Seems like the fox and the hen house. I thought this was exactly the opposite of the 'personal relationship' with Jesus that evangelicals were talking about, where a preacher is a nice to have, not a must have. 

To answer your question, yes, you would end up in hell if you continue like you are or keep going to the catholic church.  I know this is a complete turn off to any religion because you love your parents, but I didn't write the Bible.  We were given it and we are to follow it.  Not trying to be mean here.
I didn't take it as mean, I understand this is what you believe, I just like the clarity, which is why I asked for the clarification. It doesn't upset me at all, as I don't think anyone I love is going anywhere but wherever the flame on a blown out candle goes when they pass. 
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@ludofl3x
I don't choose to lust after women, it's just something that happens, though.
Agree, but you choose not to chase women other than your wife right?

The bolded part was the most likely answer. After all, I didn't choose to be Catholic, I just came from a line of them. 
I agree I am disadvantaged in the "conversion" arena when I was brought there by my dad, but my dad was and adult and my wife(before I met her) also came in after she was an adult.  Both of them will say the same thing, that they were led there due to a desire to fill the void.

So lucky, then, that you ended up in the right one!
I know the above is sarcasm, but I think myself lucky to be brought up in this way.  It has been a lifeline to me. 
Doesn't this then put the responsibility on god to call or lead his creation to the right church? Makes me wonder why there are so many competing denominations, because they can't all be right, in fact, all of them save one have to be wrong, which means an awful lot of people who think they're in good shape are in for an unpleasant surprise. 
This is a good point but one that discounts our ability to choose God or not.  If God wants us saved, then he will make a way IF we also want to be saved.  He will not pull us to him kicking and screaming.  There are a lot of wrong churches, but keep in mind that they all read from the same Bible and should hear from the same God.  Someone is not listening or following directions.
Does it make you sad to think your brother is going to hell, and when you're in heaven you'll forget about him? 
My brother and mother both are not in the same way as me.  It is their decision though.  So it's sad, but I can only do so much.

but also say that I can't fully understand the bible without a preacher to interpret it or help me along
Again,  I don't think we are uncapable of any understanding.  We just need a teacher.

I thought this was exactly the opposite of the 'personal relationship' with Jesus
Not really.  If someone can help you learn about God or his ways, how does this negate a personal relationship?  Besides, God's plan also involved having his people around you (fellowship).  So you will always be helping or being helped in some form or fashion.

I didn't take it as mean, I understand this is what you believe, I just like the clarity, which is why I asked for the clarification. It doesn't upset me at all, as I don't think anyone I love is going anywhere but wherever the flame on a blown out candle goes when they pass. 
Good, because I don't want to come across as such.  If what you say is true, then none of us have anything to worry about when we pass.
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Agree, but you choose not to chase women other than your wife right?
Sure, but that's a different pair of shoes. I'm talking about a physiological reaction, you're talking about my personal moral code. My point is I can't help who I'm attracted to, and because I'm not consciously deciding "I want to be attracted to this beautiful tower of thicc perfection that is briskly jogging over hurdles and finishing last, girl don't move too fast, lemme get a good look at you." So if I'm not deciding to do that, is it not reasonable to conclude it's something I can't control? An instinct? Why would it be any different for gay people? 

So lucky, then, that you ended up in the right one!
I know the above is sarcasm, but I think myself lucky to be brought up in this way.  It has been a lifeline to me. 
I worried it sounded that way, and maybe it was a little tongue-in-cheek, I'll admit. In reality it IS good you ended up in a community that helps make you happy or helps with times of need. So long as you don't infringe on the rights of others, I mean it, good for you, but my point is more that every Christian on earth thinks they're in the right church. You seem to agree here:

There are a lot of wrong churches, but keep in mind that they all read from the same Bible and should hear from the same God.  Someone is not listening or following directions.
If there are so many wrong churches, then why isn't god correcting them explicitly, instead choosing to let the wrong church preachers with bad biblical information lead his beloved followers into eternal damnation? God has to get his smite game tight, because it seems irresponsible to let his name be used in such a way. Yet every year new denominations emerge, new preachers both nefarious and benevolent start congregations, and there's no definitive "THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE."

My brother and mother both are not in the same way as me.  It is their decision though.  So it's sad, but I can only do so much.
I hear you, but this point really gets to the crux of another question. Do you, personally, think that your mom and brother deserve eternal damnation if the only thing they do differently from you is believe differently? You don't have to answer that one, it's an uncomfortable question, it's just something to maybe show a little more of my own perspective. I don't, and I don't think if a perfect justice existed, it would think so either. You can live a perfectly good life as let's say an adherent Muslim, a life that largely comports with Christian standards EXCEPT for the parts about Jesus and the bible, you know, helping your fellow man, not being a murderer, being honest, etc., then die and get to the pearly gates and be kicked into eternal torture because you checked the wrong box on the form. That isn't justice, and it's one of the reasons I find the character immoral and repugnant. 

Also Happy 4th! 
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"I want to be attracted to this beautiful tower of thicc perfection that is briskly jogging over hurdles and finishing last, girl don't move too fast, lemme get a good look at you."
LOL! I'm dying!!
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And then you died.

And






Nothing.







Perhaps there were a few seconds of vivid memory.

As systems shut down for good.




But if you can't handle that yet.

Then you can always dream of  heaven.

Any heaven will do.

Make up your own.

Or choose one of the more popular Middle Eastern models.



All those virgins sound fun.

But I often wonder where all the virgins come from.

Maybe they are virtual virgins.

All a part of the big simulation.
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I know this is addressed to DavidAz but I wouldn't mind attempting to discuss this as well. 

It seems to me that the question is about how can a Christian really experience Heaven, knowing that some of his family are in Hell. 

Is that right? 

And that is a good question.  

My wife's father died recently. He was a militant atheist. One of the guys who attend my bible study, his wife is an atheist and so are his kids. 

Interestingly almost 3/4 of the world's population, that's about 5 billion people don't believe in Jesus or are Christians. And of the many who do confess to being Christian, it is probably in name only.  Still, the fact is, is that if the Bible is correct, then many people will reject Christ and end up in Hell.  And the question then arises as you put it, how can one enjoy heaven and be joyful and thankful, knowing that others are suffering torment in Hell forever? 

You make 4 suggestions as to how people deal with this. 

  • (A) No, don't be silly. We're going to give you perfect copies of those people, except they're going to be Christians this time! (And thereby would not be copies; would you know? Would you not eventually notice your Jewish wife is a Christian now?)
Interesting perspective. I suppose some people might think this. Yet there is no evidence of any such thing occurring in the Bible. It's what I would call a false hope. 

  • (B) It only seems bad now. When you get inside, we're going to wipe your mind and all your earthly memories, you won't think about them at all! You're going to spend eternity singing praises to god and not remembering anything about your family, friends, or life, but it's really going to feel so good, you won't care about them at all. (In this version of heaven, the entirety of YOU isn't in heaven; the part that loved your family, the part that had friends, the part that experienced your entire life is gone and replaced with a hymn singing angel instead)
I also see how some people might think this. Again there is nothing in the Bible that supports such a position.  I think is would be like "escapism". Exactly the opposite of what heaven is like. There is no point in praising God unless it is in truth. 

  • (C) Well, I'm afraid those are the rules. All the good deeds and other stuff, it's all canceled out by the fact they didn't believe in Jesus, and the rules are pretty clear. Sorry man, should have done a better job evangelizing I guess. (Now if you remember them at all, you spend eternity in sadness except you're in heaven)
It should inspire us to be more courageous in sharing the message.  And it's true that God has the final say in who comes into his house. just like you in yours.  But this sort of attitude is foreign to what the bible says.  In fact, the Bible seems to suggest from the beginning, that God is always inviting people to come to him. Bending over backwards in many occasions. 

  • (D) No, of course not. They're good people, they lived good lives, so they can get in. (Except now Christian heaven isn't just for Christians, because they're letting in two Jewish people and an atheist who do NOT believe in Jesus)
Universalism. Interestingly there are many Christians who believe this. Personally, I take the view that the vast majority of people will end up going to heaven than to Hell. But I still think that many will end up in Hell. 

For me, your question is a good one. But I think it is also one that is based on assumptions that not everyone has. 

Although it is certainly true that we desire that most people end up in a good place rather than a bad place. And we certainly desire that our family members and people we love end up in a good place with us. But that is a desire and it gives us nice warm cuddly feelings. 

But I wonder if that is really our true desire or not. I am sure that Hitler's mother would like Hitler to end up in heaven if she went there. At least on one level. But on another level, if she knew how evil he was, would she also think it was fair for him to be punished justly for his offences? And I think that the same is true for most of us. On one level, we want all of our loved ones with us wherever we are. (I wonder if we were in Hell, would we want our mother and wife with us or would we be happy that they are in heaven far from where we are) 

Heaven and Hell are not just places of rewards and punishments. They are also places of relationships. What I mean by that - is that heaven is God's home. Hell is a place of eternal death - separated from God.  I know my father-in-law hated God with all of his breath. He didn't want a relationship with God and didn't want to spend time with him here on earth. And couldn't stand the thought of spending eternity with him.  Why would I or my wife want him to spend eternity in a place he didn't want to be? He made a choice. Of course, he decided God wasn't real and that heaven and hell didn't exist. Yet he also made a choice, that if God did exist, then he would prefer to be in Hell than with God.  The fact that he was wrong about what Hell is like is a matter for him. He can't change the fact. It is not a place where there is ANY fun. It won't be pleasant. It will be absolutely terrible and that's why we might find it difficult to think about. 

I think that sin clouds our eyes now on this earth. Even those who believe.  Yet I also think that God's grace restrains people from how evil they can be on earth. Hitler was evil. But he could have been more evil. Mussolini was evil as were Stalin and Marx. But they could have been even more evil.   God's grace restrains them.  Yet when we get to heaven, we will see people as they really are and how they want to be. And in Hell people won't be restrained by grace anymore, they will become consistent with their natures. 

There are a couple of reasons. Not good ones. But helpful for me.
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Tradsecrete wrote: @ludofl3x

(A) I Yet there is no evidence of any such thing occurring in the Bible.
(B)Again there is nothing in the Bible that supports such a position.  
(C) this sort of attitude is foreign to what the bible says. 
Ok, are you saying that  if its not in the BIBLE it can't be true? 

I take the view that the vast majority of people will end up going to heaven than to Hell. But I still think that many will end up in Hell. 

And the BIBLICAL evidence for this is what, exactly?



Heaven and Hell are not just places of rewards and punishments. They are also places of relationships.

And is this alluded to in the BIBLE- if so where ?


my father-in-law hated God with all of his breath. He didn't want a relationship with God and didn't want to spend time with him here on earth. And couldn't stand the thought of spending eternity with him. Of course, he decided God wasn't real and that heaven and hell didn't exist. 

So your Father-in-law hated a god and " he decided God wasn't real and that heaven and hell didn't exist". You do see the ridiculousness of  the underlined in your comment,  surely?