Debate with Nyxified over transgender identity

Author: Public-Choice

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#31
Nyxified
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@Public-Choice
Regarding if transitioning improves mental health outcomes and if conversion therapy doesn't work, the debate is effectively a truism. There is no way to argue against it without disagreeing with science.

2. "Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/
3. "Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/
4. "Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5
5. "Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women
6. "What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
8. "Mental health and gender dysphoria: A review of the literature" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26835611/
9. "Sex-reassignment surgery yields long-term mental health benefits, study finds" https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/sex-reassignment-surgery-yields-long-term-mental-health-benefits-study-n1079911
10. "Transgender surgery can improve life for most, study confirms" https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321258
11. "Conversion therapy, suicidality, and running away: an analysis of transgender youth in the U.S." https://scholarship.libraries.rutgers.edu/esploro/outputs/workingPaper/Conversion-therapy-suicidality-and-running-away/991031790600904646
12. "LGBT conversion therapy ineffective and harmful, critics say" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/lgbt-conversion-therapy-ineffective-and-harmful-critics-say-1.3101838


#32
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Nyxified
In formal debate, you argue the best you can not because you want to convince the other side that they're wrong, but to try and convince a judge that the arguments and information you presented is more convincing than your opponents. It is not to judge what is true--that is the purpose of science and facts.
You got that backward.

Facts are true statements, facts don't produce truth they are truth.

Science is rationality in the context of explanatory hypotheses. It is the best argument in that context.

Debate is the exchange of arguments and arguments are the only rational (by definition) way to judge what is true.

You can convince someone with rhetoric, but it's not debate unless it's founded on a shared foundation of rationality.
#33
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@Public-Choice
Because the one thing I've tended to notice on here is that debates normally end up going to the person who has the most popular position, not necessarily the best arguments.
It's almost like that's the inevitable result of a poll and there never was any hope for anything else so long as giant words "winner" appear based on the directly measured popular opinion.
#34
Sir.Lancelot
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@Nyxified
@Public-Choice
@YouFound_Lxam
@Bella3sp
Probably just leave the current judges as me, Slainte, and Savant. (Maybe SkepticalOne)
If you guys need more judges, then here are my two choices.: Bones and oromagi.
(Bones will be biased towards Public, oromagi towards Nyx, but both are objective voters either way. It balances out.) 

Perhaps leave RM and TWS out of this for separate reasons. 

RM- Because he’s too biased and unreliable to vote objectively. 

Despite TWS’s strong conviction on the subject, he can be an objective voter because of his votes in The Tournament. I’d  consider bringing him in, but the mods delete his votes too frequently that I’m unsure his judgment would have any effect on the debate itself. 

Aside from oromagi and Bones, my last two picks are YouFoundLxam and Bella3sp.: 

  • Bella3sp is the more likely of the two to vote more objectively, but she’s also strongly biased towards Nyxified. So idk. I don’t think she would vote objectively, but take my opinion here with a grain of salt. 
  • I have no faith at all in YouFoundLxam’s ability to remain unbiased. He would definitely vote for Public. 


#35
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@Sir.Lancelot
To be fair, with this topic, I am not biased towards Nyxified. I see Public-Choice's side more. 
Both sides are good but I agree with Public-Choice to a degree. Identifying versus classifying are completely different in my book. 

I draw a thin line to certain things with transgender people. I don't know if I could classify them as woman, but I see both sides.
#36
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@Nyxified
@Public-Choice
@Bella3sp
Based on that, Bella3sp has my vote for judge. 
But if you guys choose Bella, you have to choose SkepticalOne to keep it balanced. 

Under no circumstances are you to make Best.Korea a judge. 
I mean you can if you want, I just don’t suggest it. 
Topic's author
#37
Public-Choice
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@Nyxified
Most of those studies are surveys or "expert opinions," which are one of the lowest forms of scientific evidence and known for having significant problems with data collection and the most bias.

In short, they are hardly "science."
#38
ponikshiy
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Men cannot cut it as women. You put a man in my body and he dies within 24 days. 

I am weak and poor. Without smarts and my beauty I would have not survived. No man can think as good as woman. 
#39
Best.Korea
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@Nyxified
2. "Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/
3. "Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/
4. "Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5
5. "Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women
6. "What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
7. "Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal" https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm
8. "Mental health and gender dysphoria: A review of the literature" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26835611/
9. "Sex-reassignment surgery yields long-term mental health benefits, study finds" https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/sex-reassignment-surgery-yields-long-term-mental-health-benefits-study-n1079911
10. "Transgender surgery can improve life for most, study confirms" https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321258
11. "Conversion therapy, suicidality, and running away: an analysis of transgender youth in the U.S." https://scholarship.libraries.rutgers.edu/esploro/outputs/workingPaper/Conversion-therapy-suicidality-and-running-away/991031790600904646
12. "LGBT conversion therapy ineffective and harmful, critics say" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/lgbt-conversion-therapy-ineffective-and-harmful-critics-say-1.3101838


Fine. Fine. You are a woman. Whatever makes you happy, be that.
#40
Best.Korea
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@ponikshiy
Men cannot cut it as women. You put a man in my body and he dies within 24 days
I dont know what does that mean.

#41
Best.Korea
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@ponikshiy
I am weak and poor. Without smarts and my beauty I would have not survived. No man can think as good as woman.
Well, gotta agree with this. Women do tend to outplay men in life.

#42
ponikshiy
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@Best.Korea
I dont know what does that mean.

Thank your mother you Don't 

Well, gotta agree with this. Women do tend to outplay men in life.
This is very much true. My ex put his life on line every day to feed and clothe me. Yet I am considered weak for doing less work and living good.

I did not even see him, because I good girl waiting for husband some day
#43
Nyxified
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@Best.Korea
Will do. Thanks for your support
#44
Best.Korea
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@ponikshiy
Thank your mother you Don't
Eh, I hate my parents, so I dont feel the need to be thanking them for whatever the previous comment means


My ex put his life on line every day to feed and clothe me. Yet I am considered weak for doing less work and living good.
Your ex sounds like a good, hard working person. But yes, living good and doing less work does sound smarter.


I did not even see him, because I good girl waiting for husband some day
Well, yes marriage is important. West doesnt care about whats important. West doesnt care about marriage and family.
#45
ponikshiy
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@Best.Korea
Your ex sounds like a good, hard working person. But yes, living good and doing less work does sound smarter.
Hard working yes,  but he was a gangster and would get sunflower seeds all over the carpet. 

Well, yes marriage is important. West doesnt care about whats important. West doesnt care about marriage and family.
That is why I learn English, to get Western man who doesn't have good woman in his country. I want rich man who is not gangster. 
#46
Best.Korea
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@Nyxified
I am not going to prevent your happiness. Preventing your happiness would not increase mine. It would not benefit me. I am not going to do that which doesnt benefit me.
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#47
Public-Choice
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@whiteflame
@Nyxified
@Sir.Lancelot
@Bella3sp
Ok, so how about Sir.Lancelot, bella3sp, and whiteflame?

Sir.Lancelot sides with you, bella3sp sides with me, and whiteflame is a mod and has a lot of experience being a voter,  so he can be the "kennedy" of our court lol
#48
ponikshiy
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I will vote
#49
Nyxified
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@Public-Choice
Many are surveys, yes, but that doesn't mean you can simply waive away the results. Is an expert's opinion the lowest level of evidence? Sure, but I'm still inclined to listen to what my doctor has to say. Does surveys tend to have problems with data collection? Sure, but if many surveys overwhelmingly support a particular conclusion, in spite of them all being performed by different groups with different methodologies, I'm inclined to give it some weight.

If you have a treasure trove of studies that are higher levels of evidence with no conflicts of interest nor blatantly obvious problems with their methodology, then I'm more than happy to see them.

Moreover, these most certainly aren't all just surveys or expert opinions. A review of 55 peer-reviewed studies from a range of 26 years done by Cornell, of which almost all find transition improves mental health and none find it harms mental health. A review of 38 studies that shows trans people are at greater risk for mental health problems, but the risk is diminished by transitioning. Even if we can completely disregard all surveys or case reports, which I do not for a moment agree that we can, my case still stands. I'm more than happy to find more systematic reviews at a time when I'm not running off of very little sleep lmao.

It should go without saying how making a study with two groups of people where one is allowed to transition and the other isn't and then checking to see how many mental health problems the group who didn't transition has is... a little ~unethical~.

You cannot seriously believe that dozens if not hundreds of reports and studies all have some unidentified problem with their methodology that render their conclusions unusable.

#50
Nyxified
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@Public-Choice
I'm fine with Lancelot, Slainte, and Savant (and whoever else we already agreed upon who wants to). It really doesn't matter to me as long as they are people I can trust to vote (mostly) objectively.

I do not particularly want to spend much time curating a list of judges. I think what we have is fine. If you think anyone I've suggested would make it unbalanced, I have no problem with not having them as a judge.
#51
ponikshiy
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@Nyxified
I am fair judge no harm to cut American man's dick off so long as I don't have to marry him. 

My understanding is American man cut part of dick after birth anyway.  
#52
Sir.Lancelot
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@Public-Choice
Ok, so how about Sir.Lancelot, bella3sp, and whiteflame?

Sir.Lancelot sides with you, bella3sp sides with me, and whiteflame is a mod and has a lot of experience being a voter,  so he can be the "kennedy" of our court lol
Who decided I sided with Nyxified?

I don't have a strong opinion on this subject, or any opinion at all for that matter.
Because I don't care about it.

That said, I'm 100% enthusiastic about judging this debate, even if I couldn't care less about the subject matter.
Topic's author
#53
Public-Choice
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@Nyxified
many surveys overwhelmingly support a particular conclusion, ... I'm inclined to give it some weight.
The surgeys in 2016 overwhwlmingly said Trump would lose to Hillary Clinton. Then in 2020 they were wring again, saying Trump was going to beat Joe Biden. If we can learn anything from this, it is that surveys are not accurate at all, even when there's 50 or even 100 of them.

The Cornell meta-analysis seems to have the same problem. It is all based on low-level surveys and not rigorous scientific studies that account for control groups, double-blind procedures, and other checks to make sure a study is scientifically accurate.

There's a reason for this. The reason is that all the plurality of randomized controlled trials found that gender affirming care does not work.

This is true especially for children.
#54
ponikshiy
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@Public-Choice
Thin k about this. Science people are those who were bullied in school and beaten by the strong kids. 

They can not be trusted to speak hard truths against the loud protesters types. Scientests are mostly cowards.

 
#55
Nyxified
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@Public-Choice
Even if I accept that's true, which I don't, surveys for US presidential elections predicted winners by margins up to ~5%. They didn't predict that over 90% of people were gonna vote for Hillary and then Trump still won anyways. These comparisons aren't just not in the same ballpark, they're not even on the same planet. If 90%+ of respondents show gender affirming care has improved their life and lowered their mental-health risk, to say there's some hidden 40%+ that we're just not getting to is ridiculous.

The key difference here is that surveys failed to predict who would be elected president of the United States because it failed to find respondents that were representative of the overall populous.

If we're asking the question of 'does gender-affirming care work' and the survey is done by an institution that provides that care who gets respondents by asking the people they treated, there's not somebody you can miss. There's no secret, significant group of people who we're failing to capture. This is again operating on the assumption that hundreds of surveys and case reports can be so consistently wrong by margins of 40% or greater.

We aren't just going around calling random numbers or going to random areas like pollsters were. Of course that strategy is going to lead to you not getting responses from rural voters who are predominantly Republican. These are just objectively not comparable situations.

You provided a source to say that gender affirming care does not work. The group your source originates from is rated as 'low' in terms of factual reporting and 'far-right' in terms of media bias. Your source is meaningless.

Even if I look past your source's complete and utter untrustworthiness, you call retracting a single study to be a plurality? A single survey retracted because a reanalysis shows no difference in the mental health of those who accessed gender affirming care and those who didn't proves nothing amidst hundreds of surveys that show there is a positive difference. Your source isn't a review of studies, it's the equivalent of a Tumblr post about a single study that was retracted.

Your second source is from the exact same group. I'd also like to point out this group has failed multiple fact checks and has pushed anti-vaccine misinformation (analysis/bias section). The source doesn't even review any studies at all.

Your second source makes a whole lot of claims and doesn't list a source for one of them. I thought 'expert opinion' was the lowest form of evidence?
Topic's author
#56
Public-Choice
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@Nyxified
to say there's some hidden 40%+ that we're just not getting to is ridiculous.
There is when you cherry pick the data, which all those studies did. They either did not accept raw data, or they removed data they didn't like or "normed" it to make a fake result, just like with political polls. To rely on surveys, which are quite literally the second lowest forms of evidence in all of the scientific world (behind experts), to argue "the science" is akin to using the Quran to authoritatively cover world religions. It's useless and full of errors.

Your source is meaningless.
Media Bias Fact Check is run by a liberal democrat who openly calls natural medicine and alternative treatments  "quackery" and "pseudoscience" despite websites like examine.com and selfhacked documenting the thousands and thousands of studies proving the efficacy of alternative and natural medicine. Your source is meaningless. But, even more so, you are quite literally engaging in the lowest form of scientific rigor, even a step below surveys, to question randomized controlled trials and papers that stand on the shoulders of giants in their fields of research.

failed multiple fact checks
The fact check agencies in question are funded in large part by companies that are pro-transgender surgery. They are hardly unbiased sources. They are paid to be biased toward transgender surgeries. If your response is to cite biased fact checkers who are paid handsomely to defend transgender surgeries, then I emplore you to look into the double-blind and blind randomized controlled trials, because they don't agree with your "surveys" and "fact checks."

Moreover, the two fact checks listed don't even fact check anything ACOP said. It is Snopes deciding that the AAP is the only leading organization on pediatrics and saying all other organizations are not leading organizations.

Moreover, ACOP themselves have stated they are not anti-LGBT. Their members treat everyone regardless of sexual orientation:

The ACPeds recognizes that many children are not reared in a traditional nuclear family structure. Our members support and give care to children from all backgrounds, including single-parent, blended, and other non-traditional families while working to encourage the married mother-father family unit. While there will be exceptions, particularly in families marred by the presence of abuse, the fact remains that the family structure consisting of a married mother and father is usually in the child’s best interest, and should therefore, be favored by policymakers interested in promoting the well-being of children.
If you spent more time actually reading the links you cited you would have learned these things.

you call retracting a single study to be a plurality
No. I call the 55+ rigorous studies cited by the American College of Pediatricians a plurality of studies. These are mostly REAL studies, studies that have actual rigorous standards, not surveys and so-called "experts."
#57
RationalMadman
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Sir Lancelot approving of me as a voter is never making it on my bucket list, XD.

I am one of the most objective voters on the site.
#58
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@Nyxified
Almost 0 of your reply to me made any sense btw.

The entire reason liberal nations have legalised hormone therapy and genital mutilation for gender dysphoric is that it is deemed to be incurable that they hate their birth sex and appearing like their birth-sex-linked gender.

It seemed like gaslighting almost, the way you typed circles around the issue. I have no idea what to even reply to it as you tried to separate gender dysphoria from transitioning... I am not sure what to say to someone lying that hard.
#59
Nyxified
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@RationalMadman
You asked a genuine question and I gave you a genuine reply. You can take it however you want.

Not all trans people have dysphoria. That isn't, like, an opinion or a lie I'm telling you. That's... literally just a fact?

I do not particularly care if dysphoria is the reason gender-affirming care was legalized.

If you somehow can convince yourself that I'm spending the time and effort deliberately lying to you, a person on the internet whose opinion I really don't care about, you're welcome to believe that.
#60
Nyxified
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@Public-Choice
We are already at an impasse. I cannot argue with someone who wants to argue that official sources and science itself are wrong.

The fact checkers are biased.

The data is cherry-picked.

Contrary sources don't matter.

I'd love to see where the '55+ studies cited' are, because I read both of your sources and I didn't see a single study cited. You send a link where they are discussing a single retracted paper and then use that to talk about 55 other studies as if I'm supposed to analyze evidence I haven't been presented.

It's great that the AAP treats everyone equally regardless of sexual orientation. I mean, I find that hard to believe when half the paragraph demonstrating their 'support' for queer people is spent talking about how mother-father families are ideal and should always be preferred. Doesn't change literally anything that I said. Sexual orientation and gender identity aren't the same thing. You can support one and not the other.