Are the Nephilim giants, fallen angels, or human/angel hybrids?

Author: Castin

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#1
Castin
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I always understood it to be the last one: the product of a union between an angel and a human. Obviously the most interesting of the three as well, imo.

But I've recently been reminded that the Bible also refers to nephilim as "giants", and that the original Hebrew word, nefilim, apparently means "the fallen ones".

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Conspiracy Theory #1 They Dominate
They are/were Ancient Alien Demigods, they either exit Earth via underwater swimming out of Antarctica from underneath or via ocean=based or north-pole based portals in places liek the Bermuda Triangle (although that's more likely an exit-portal much like is implied in the story of Atlantis) ir even possible they enter straight up over-land Antarctica when they know the coast is clear. It's possible they can be both invisible and inaudible among other things.

Conspiracy Theory #2 They Submit/Lost
The size was unbearably big compared to the brain so they could barely equal the early primates in intellect or whatever. We teamed up, took them down and consumed their bodies and this is actually how the superhuman alien=-like demigod beings formed. Some remained alive and communicate between us and the other aliens and demigods out there while also being guards to Shambhala kingdom of the North Pole among other things.


Most flat-earthers believe neither of these, they believe this:

CT #3 They were defeated by what we are told are extinct dinosaurs but are still-present human-masked reptilians like the Rothschilds and Clintons etc.

Not much to explain here, speaks for itself.

I support the first 2, I think the mainstream conspiracy doesn't add up for a variety of reasons.
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Castin
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@RationalMadman
What do flat Earthers have to do with nephilim, then? I thought flat Earth was a theory about Earth's shape, not a religious worldview.
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@Castin
Flat earth is indeed a religious worldview, it is the way theists, usually Christians, are defying science and what science has discovered about the world around us. It has little to do with the shape of earth and everything to do with bringing the dark ages back.
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@Castin
I mean do you actually want to know or just asking? 
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@Goldtop
Flat earth is indeed a religious worldview, it is the way theists, usually Christians, are defying science and what science has discovered about the world around us. It has little to do with the shape of earth and everything to do with bringing the dark ages back.

Yet there own scriptures make it clear: 

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth", Isaiah 40:22
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@RationalMadman
I mean do you actually want to know or just asking? 
Well I'm asking what they are within the Bible.

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@Stephen
Based on the fact that I am quite sure God of OT is Satan, the story isn't quite as straightforward as they are the good guys or not.
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@Castin
Not much in the actual bible.  You need to look in the book of Enoch which didn't make the final cut.
It was that nutter on DDO's favourite source
You WILL watch this.

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@Castin
Unlike other flat-earthers, I am on the side of Illuminati ultimately. I support the regime and understand that it's inevitable for the more intelligent and more courageous to consume the duller-minded in both sense (intellect and bravery). 

So, I don't really look to the Bible unless to understand God in that specific story and the clues. The Nephilism references are hidden and that implies to me that they were DEFINITELY real and supposed to stay hidden. I don't think they were humanoid giants though, I think they were something reptilian, much like the snake that met Eve. This is all linked because I think they were there to test us and we were meant to savagely conquer them and consume them proving that brawn matters less than brains and courage in the end.

Other than that, I can't fathom what they're really brought up for. 
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But I've recently been reminded that the Bible also refers to nephilim as "giants", and that the original Hebrew word, nefilim, apparently means "the fallen ones".
I believe you are referring to yet another, enigmatic, anomalous and ambiguous half story that is left in mid-air. 

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.Genesis 6:4 KJV

Other bibles use the word "nephilim" such as: 


The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.Genesis 6:4 ESV


Are the nephilim "the sons of god"  or are  they "offspring" of the sons of god who are the "mighty men of old, men of renown". 
"Giant" and "men of renown" could simply mean status and not stature? It could mean that they were highly intelligent beings?

This is a bit more to the story:

When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. Then the Lord said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.
— Genesis 6:1–4, N R S V

This is interesting as it mentions the "nephilim" as the descendants of Mesopotamian lord/ gods known as   the Anunnaki. Are these the "men of old" and the "men of renown" that they are speaking of?

The Lord said to Moses, "Send men to spy out the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites" ... So they went up and spied out the land ... And they told him: "... Yet the people who live in the land are strong, and the towns are fortified and very large; and besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there." ... So they brought to the Israelites an unfavorable report of the land that they had spied out, saying, "The land that we have gone through as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people that we saw in it are of great size. There we saw the Nephilim (the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them."
— Numbers 13:1–2; 21; 27–28; 32–33. N R S V.

As can bee seen , here they make it  clear that these being are of some size.

 I mentioned on another thread that these Mesopotamian Lords didn't seem particular who they mated with. And maybe this is why they were known as "fallen".
 And the book of Enoch goes into more detail telling us that some of these "fallen" were imprisoned for what was considered taboo.

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Castin
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@Stephen
That's interesting, where exactly is the mention of the Anunnaki? I'm aware Yahweh comes from a henotheistic background, but I'm not familiar with those gods. Are you going off of "descendants of Anak"?
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@Castin
Are you going off of "descendants of Anak"?

Anak also  Anakim in hebrew. A few of these Babylonian/Mesopotamia lords are mentioned in the biblical scriptures , Bel/ Baal . Marduk/ Merodach son of the Mesopotamian  serpent lord Ea /Enki  


Deuteronomy 2:10-11 
10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;
11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims.


Jeremiah 52:31 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evil Merodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison.

These could be those referred to as "men of old" and "renown"?
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@Stephen
I took "men of old, men of renown" as "legendary men from the past".

"Sons of God" seems to be interpreted as angels, but the term sounds more ambiguous to me.
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@Castin
angels
Greek, simply means messenger or those who do the bidding of the higher lords. We can read often where the lord sends a messenger on one errand or another. A higher lord once sent A satan - one of many, - to  torment Job with the strict instructions not to harm Job himself and all just to prove a point

legendary men from the past

Well if the scriptures are anything to go by, then yes they would be "men", ie we were created in their image, Jacob wrestled with one said to be a lord but also said to be a man. moses argued with his lord face to face, these lord/  beings done everything men do, they ate and rested and made war,  but that said, these beings, for one reason or another were revered and looked up for something. 
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A higher lord once sent A satan - one of many, - to  torment Job with the strict instructions not to harm Job himself and all just to prove a point
i haven't seen 'A' in any translation. IMO Satan is a definite individual in Job.


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@Castin
The commentators have a few different approaches:

1. They are those who were giants (Anakim) either in physical stature or in bravery/might
2. They are those who caused others to fall (n-f-l is a root for falling) through their misdeeds
3. They are those whose size and strength made others cower/fall
4. They are those who, themselves, fell, because they were led by their lusts and were lesser than generations before

The Malbim is very clear, though, that the entire notion of "fallen from heaven" (as another commentator puts it "semidei") is wrong.
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@Castin
I take the view it refers to the kings and important people of the time. 

It cannot refer to angels - as this would violate the creation ordinance of kind after kind. angels and humans cannot produce infants. 

Hence, it must refer to something else. 

The kings of the world - at the time - were giants among men. They existed before Noah and after Noah. 


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@keithprosser
IMO Satan is a definite individual in Job.
it is a title. it means accuser, opposer  David was referred to being a Satan. Simon was called satan by Jesus.
the Hebrew term satan denotes adversary/. the Greek Diabolos means accuser so in this regard satan has been associated with  an argumentative OT 'son of god' called satan but with no actual scriptural basis for the association. 

Satan has only three mentions in the OT, oddly, considering from day one he is said to have stood at god's right hand side. Interesting that Jesus says that he will return standing in the same place.

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A higher lord once sent A satan - one of many, - to  torment Job#giants
Is 'satan' akin to 'angel' or is 'Satan' akin to 'Gabriel' or 'the holy ghost'?

A natural reading of the text implies 'Satan' refers to a specific personage, not a class.   IMO.  Anyway the stuff about 'giants' is much more interesting.

I take it people have seen Noah with Russel Crow with the giants as rock creatures?



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@keithprosser
I take it people have seen Noah with Russel Crow with the giants as rock creatures?

Indeed. There have been many religious/faith based movies over the last twenty years (many more than people realise about ten at least just this year)  that seem to be giving a different take on what the preachers and teachers seem to ignore. And this is not to mention the movies on other ancient religious beliefs ie Greeks gods and gods of the Egyptians..

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@Stephen
I think in the Noah movie the rock giants were more an excuse for doing the CGI effects.   I'm not a religious movie fan.   I like old movies in general so I'm more familar with the Charton Heston and Victor Mature versions - and of course the greatest of the all: 'Life of Brian', although that's a bit recent being only 39 years old!

I really must sit down with Enoch and the other non-canonical stuff soon.
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@keithprosser
Anyway the stuff about 'giants' is much more interesting.
ESV
Genesis 6:4 reads as : The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mightymen that were of old, themen of renown.

The KJV

Genesis 6:4 reads as: There Were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men etc.

When looked at side my side it translates In Christian bibles as giants = nephilim = giants , but according to some biblical scholars the Hebrew word “ "nephilim” as in the biblical verse/s is a mistranslation of the term nephilim or NFL  relates, they say, to “those who came down” or “those who descended” and from this there developed some warped idea that these giants/nephilim were cast down and it simply became Christian dogma that they were “fallen angels” who had been “cast down”. 
We shouldn’t lose sight of the biblical fact that these beings were, at the end of the day, “sons of God” which cast a whole new question on the relationship between god and his “sons”. How could he not keep control of them? Why didn’t he create them sinless as he did with his “only son” Jesus? <<<<<<< see what I did there? 
 
 
 

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@Stephen
I don't get very excited because I start from taking the bible as a cobbled together collection of folk tales and legends.  I think its quite odd that right from the beginning we find two slightly differentaccounts othe same thing.   Clearly the editors tried to smooth over the joins and harmonise everything - and did a pretty good job of it - but sometimes it loolks like a committee at work.  
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I start from taking the bible as a cobbled together collection of

Are you saying there is absolutely no historicity to these "folk tales and legends"?


I think its quite odd that right from the beginning we find two slightly different accounts of  the same thing.
Arguably there are. But the theist will give us an argument, as has already come about in my case and they failed miserably. As was the case here >
Everythingis Wrong about the Biblical Creation in Genesis https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/493

And here

One God? It is simply Not True  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506

  Clearly the editors tried to smooth over the joins and harmonise everything - and did a pretty good job of it -

I don't think they did. The glaring contradictions and half stories are there from the off which only serve to raise some serious questions such as those of the OP 




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@Stephen
'Good job' is relative!   I think they were breaking new ground in constructing a single definitive repository of their culture.   They did it to preserve it aginst dilution and change.   It certainly worked to ensure there was a jewish people at the end of the exile, unlike the10 lost tribes fro the Assyran one. 

But it is YHWHist document and its questionable whether the culture truly reflects the Hebrew's past.

i'm generally a minimalist - I think very little of the historical stuff is reliable.   Its too clouded by theology and nationalism to be accurate.

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I think very little of the historical stuff is reliable.  

Well, when you have civilisations thousands of miles apart referring to gods "descending" albeit giving them different names, it just cannot be ignored as much as this could all be put down to "logical fallacy" by many.


Its too clouded by theology and nationalism to be accurate. 
Something that can be said for all modern as well as ancient histories.  History, it is said,  is written by the victors.
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@Tradesecret
I take the view it refers to the kings and important people of the time. 

It cannot refer to angels - as this would violate the creation ordinance of kind after kind. angels and humans cannot produce infants. 

Hence, it must refer to something else. 

The kings of the world - at the time - were giants among men. They existed before Noah and after Noah. 
I did think allowing angels and humans to boogie was suspiciously cool of God.

So what's your take on the translation of nefilim as "the fallen ones" or "those who make others fall"? This is probably a great example of why an intimate understanding of the original Hebrew is so important -- an understanding most of us in the modern world lack.

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@rosends
The commentators have a few different approaches:

1. They are those who were giants (Anakim) either in physical stature or in bravery/might
2. They are those who caused others to fall (n-f-l is a root for falling) through their misdeeds
3. They are those whose size and strength made others cower/fall
4. They are those who, themselves, fell, because they were led by their lusts and were lesser than generations before

The Malbim is very clear, though, that the entire notion of "fallen from heaven" (as another commentator puts it "semidei") is wrong.
That strikes me as a list of very different meanings. How can we glean an accurate or precise understanding of these passages from such ambiguity?

But I'm aware that fallen angels are primarily a Christian notion, so supposing the nephilim to be fallen angels may indeed be looking at them through a Christian lens.

Wait, scratch that -- I'm wrong.

The idea of fallen angels derived from Jewish Enochic pseudepigraphy or the assumption that the "sons of God" (בני האלהים‬) mentioned in Genesis 6:1–4 are angels.[2] Some scholars consider it most likely that the Jewish tradition of fallen angels predates, even in written form, the composition of Gen 6:1–4.[3][4][a] In the period immediately preceding the composition of the New Testament, some sects of Judaism, as well as many Christian Church Fathers, identified the "sons of God" (בני האלהים‬) of Genesis 6:1–4 as fallen angels.[6]

Feels like it always goes back to the Book of Enoch, doesn't it.
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But I'm aware that fallen angels are primarily a Christian notion, so supposing the nephilim to be fallen angels may indeed be looking at them through a Christian lens.

Wait, scratch that -- I'm wrong.
The idea that Satan and his cronies are ex-angels who rebelled against God is seperable from the idea that the nephilim are the offspiring of other naughty angels who merely felt horny!   We could have two legends or oral traditions merging here.

If angels were supposedly created by god they would all be 'Sons of God', at least figuratively. That may be why John spoke of Jesus as Gods only begotten son.   Unfortunately john is not available for comment.

i found this wiki page particularly interesting.