is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?

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one of the foundational aspects of forgiveness is repentence. or that someone ask for it to receive it. some traditional christians like some catholics say it's not necessary to forgive everyone, or those who are unrepentent, cause God doesn't either. if we look at the eastern concept of forgiveness, it also implies reconciliation. you can only forgive those you are reconciled with. it's about establishing communion, and we can't commune with someone closed off to us. 

but Jesus does say 'the measure you use will be measured to you'. which might indicate that the standard we use to forgive might be the standard God uses with us. at the end of John, he says 'whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained'. catholics like to say this creates the idea of their confession, but protestants like to say this just means we have the power to save people through our preaching. neither of these ideas really fit that well, but both are compelling. we might say that if we dont forgive, they aren't forgiven, their sin is retained. between the two of you. but we have to remember that our measure will be measured to us. 

to incorporate NDE philsophy, everyone can acheive salvation. maybe of legal matters, we are all forgiven. but when it comes to the eastern concept of reconciliation, it is impossible to forgive someone we can't commune with. 

so, maybe in the sense that is most meaningful, we cant forgive if we can't reconcile.... but we can always be open to reconcilation if they repent, or if it's a matter of looking past brusised egos and letting bygones be bygones... or as saint paul said, 'just let it slide'.
but when it comes to legality, but we can forgive but maybe it is up to each person how they want to treat that. but i would think if we use legality against others, it could be used against us. ultimately i think it's wisest to forgive everyone, not just cause that's what we want when we are unrepentant, but because it's the godliest thing to do. 
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"As we forgive those who trespass against us"

It doesnt say "they need to repent first, then we can forgive them".
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@Best.Korea
that phrase though is open to interpretation. could be said that we only forgive if they repent... just as we are only forgiven if we repent. 
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@n8nrgim
This heaven in wich you say we are all invited to ummmm enter. 

It has like , to the left and all the way to the back is where the Catholics "live"   
we've the protes to the right at the far back. 
So on and so on. 
The atheists live at the top of the protestants and start again at the back of the side over there.  

If i walk out my back yard in heaven there is just row after row of christians  to the left of me more on my right  behind , infront .
Just Fucking christians,  as farrrrrr as the i can see. 
Well Woot Woot 

Ive really done myself a mischief here i tell you .
Talk about jumping the gun 
Im so fucking embarrassed right now. 

Nate cakes.  
BAY BAY.
A quick question pal. 

Can the prayer thing i did and the acceptance of jesus speach i said be some how ," taken back " . ?
Reversed if you will ? 
Elected against. 
Fucked off . 
Dumped, 
Or better yet ,, i might try it out in a month or two time.  later if i could . 

When it comes. To selecting your  after life accommodation package,  dont just jump in , as i did .  
I would like to see if i could get a atheist block in heaven that sits miles upon miles away from a single christian? 

Please say yes
Please god , please.   
Computer says no. 

Look Don't worry about it. 
Im ripping it up .,

Its all good .move on. 

The amount of time christians here on earth spend with just Christians 
Has me thinking 
Surly a large nuber of christians are pissed about  having to be around a large numbers of christians after they die . 



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The Limits of Forgiveness

Every year of mankind’s fallen history witnesses countless sins, large and small. When they are committed against us, it raises the question of forgiveness, since Jesus made it clear that we must be willing to forgive.
The prior two years witnessed particularly heinous crimes. The year 2001 saw the terrorist attacks, and 2002 saw the priestly sexual abuse scandal. In the wake of both of them, people were pondering the subject of forgiveness.
I remember, in the days immediately following 9/11, people calling Catholic Answers Live confused because their priests had told them that the U.S. must not strike back against the terrorists because of the Christian duty of forgiveness.

After the sex scandal broke, there were many—even those who had not themselves been abused—vociferously declaring that they “could never forgive” the priestly abusers for what they had done.
There’s something wrong with both of these views of forgiveness. The latter reflects the all-too-human tendency to not forgive no matter what the circumstances. It’s the attitude toward which Christ’s teachings regarding forgiveness are directed.
The former attitude reflects the opposite extreme, insisting on all forms of forgiveness regardless of the circumstances. Though this attitude of hyper-forgiveness seeks to cloak itself in the teachings of Christ, in reality it goes far beyond what Christ asks us to do and even what God himself does.
Christ’s most famous injunction regarding forgiveness is found in the Our Father: “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt. 6:12—and it is debts in Greek though the common English translation uses the word trespasses).
Just to make sure we get the point, Jesus singles this petition out for special commentary: “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:14–15).
So that’s it. You have to forgive if you want to be forgiven.
Forgiveness and Feelings
This creates the urgent question: What does it mean to forgive someone? This is a sticky issue because there are certain things that commonly go under the name of forgiveness that are difficult or impossible for us to do.
For example, we often think of forgiving people in terms of not being angry with them anymore, of having warm, positive feelings toward them. When we tell people that we forgive them for what they did, we often smile and try to convey the impression that we have warm feelings even though we still may feel angry.
Since our forgiveness before God is conditional on our willingness to forgive others, a person with a feelings-based understanding of forgiveness could conclude that he isn’t forgiven by God until he has rosy feelings about everyone in the world. This would lead him to try to manufacture positive feelings for others. When these feelings are not forthcoming, it can make him scared for his salvation, emotionally dry, frustrated, or even angry with God for making his salvation contingent on what kind of feelings he has when he doesn’t have full control of them. That way lies despair.
But the feelings-based view of forgiveness is wrong for precisely the reason that the previous two scenarios turn on: We don’t have full control of our feelings.
Sure, we can influence them. If a particular subject makes us angry, we can try to think about something else. We can ask ourselves questions like “Was it really that bad?” or “What good can come from this?” or “What can I learn from this?” to put the subject in perspective.
But these efforts dance around the anger itself. They attempt to influence it from the outside. There is no way for us to reach into ourselves and flip a switch that causes the anger to vanish and be replaced by rosy feelings.
What we can’t control we are not responsible for. Since we have only indirect influence on our feelings, we can be responsible for how we strive to manage them
but not for having them.


What Forgiveness Is Not
Of course, what we would really like in getting someone’s forgiveness is for things to be just as if we had never offended him. We’d like things to go back to exactly the way they were.
That may not happen. Even if someone’s ill feelings for us go away, prudence may dictate that he will not treat us in exactly the same way. This is particularly the case if we have broken trust with him.
Consider the extremes we mentioned earlier: If someone is a terrorist or a child molester then—no matter how penitent he may be—he simply cannot be treated as if he had never committed his crimes.
Most of us have committed offenses nowhere near that bad, but the principle still holds. We sense it in our interactions with others. If someone has violated our trust, we may be able to let go of our anger, but that doesn’t mean that we’re going to put our trust in him again. Our trust will have to be earned.
Forgiveness thus does not mean treating someone as if they had never sinned. That would require us to let go of our reason as well as our anger.
The Church acknowledges this principle. In his encyclical Dives in Misericordia, John Paul II notes that the “requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. . . . In no passage of the gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence toward evil, toward scandals, toward injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness” (DM 14).
Preemptive Forgiveness?
We aren’t obligated to forgive people who do not want us to. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that people have regarding the topic. People have seen “unconditional” forgiveness and love hammered so often that they feel obligated to forgive someone even before that person has repented. Sometimes they even tell the unrepentant that they have preemptively forgiven him (much to the impenitent’s annoyance).
This is not what is required of us.
Consider Luke 17:3–4, where Jesus tells us, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.
The upshot? If someone isn’t repentant, you don’t have to forgive him.
If you do forgive him anyway, that can be meritorious, provided it doesn’t otherwise have bad effects (e.g., encouraging future bad behavior). But it isn’t required of us that we forgive the person.
This may strike some people as odd. They may have heard unconditional love and forgiveness preached so often that the idea of not indiscriminately forgiving everybody sounds unspiritual to them. They might even ask, “But wouldn’t it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?”
I sympathize with this argument, but there is a two-word rejoinder to it: God doesn’t.
Not everybody is forgiven. Otherwise, we’d all be walking around in a state of grace all the time and have no need of repentance to attain salvation. God doesn’t like people being unforgiven, and he is willing to grant forgiveness to all, but he isn’t willing to force it on people who don’t want it. If people are unrepentant of what they know to be sinful, they are not forgiven.
Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness.
If God doesn’t forgive the unrepentant, and it is not correct to tell people that they need to do so, what is required of us?
What Forgiveness Is
Jesus calls us to be like God in the showing of mercy “that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 5:45). So how does God forgive?
Scripture tells us that he “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4) and the he is “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).
We should have the same attitude. We should will the good of every soul, even the most evil ones. No matter who they are or what they’ve done, we need to will their ultimate good, which is salvation through repentance.
What if they don’t repent?
One may hope that they were not culpable for their actions and so can be saved, that they were affected by mental disorder, intense pressure, ignorance, indoctrination, or something that affected their judgment so that they weren’t responsible for their actions at the time they committed them.
But what if they were?
We may hope that they are brought around to repentance. In fact, we ought to hope this even for those who weren’t responsible for their actions. But to be brought to repentance often requires suffering the consequences of one’s sins.
This is where righteous anger comes in. It is often said that anger is a desire for vengeance (cf. ST II-II:158:1). This puts it a little more harshly than many today would want to say it, but anger does involve a desire that the offending person experience the consequences of his sins. Without this desire, the feeling would be something less than anger, such as simple frustration.
Anger is righteous—in keeping with justice—if it is still fundamentally directed toward the good. Thus one may wish that a person experience the consequences of his offenses to sufficiently understand how he has hurt others, and teach him to not commit them in the future.
However, “if he desires the punishment of one who has not deserved it, or beyond his deserts, or again contrary to the order prescribed by law, or not for the due end—namely the maintaining of justice and the correction of faults—then the desire of anger will be sinful” (ibid., 2).
It is so easy for us in our fallen state to slip into sinful anger that Scripture repeatedly warns us against it, but anger serves a fundamental purpose.
If a person with whom we are angry repents, then the obligation to forgive kicks in. This means that we must be willing to set aside our anger because he no longer deserves it. We may still feel it for a time, and it can even be advisable to let him know this in order to underscore the lesson he needs to have learned. But we do need to manage our emotions so that we let the anger go and, to the best of our ability, encourage it to fade.
And what if a person doesn’t repent when all is said and done?
At some point we need to let our feeling of anger fade, not for his sake but for ours. It isn’t good for us to stay angry, and it poses temptations to sin. Ultimately, we have to let go of the feeling of anger and move on with life. Frequently we have to do so even when a person has not repented.
But for the person himself, what should we hope? With regret, we recognize that it is appropriate that he gets what he chose, even if that was hell. This is, after all, the attitude taken by God toward those who choose death rather than life.
here is a good article i was thinking of. it says a person could be virtuous in doing so but doesn't need to forgive the unrepentant just the same as God doesn't forgive the unrepentant. it's written from a catholic perspective, but it is still christian and bible based. 

i think the best bet is to look at the issue through legality v reconciliation lenses of forgiveness, as i said. 
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@n8nrgim
As a athiest in chistian heaven Every day i get , well aint you a dick head mate. 
Hey everybody.   This guys is a No brain atheist.  
The endless  torment the christians continue with is painfull. 
People say i shouldn't be in heaven in the fist place., 
 They say i should love the christians for adopting me to live in heaven . 

I have just only excepted that 
Every post i ever posted on religion  was wrong .
 They throw rocks on my roof . 

There the idiot atheist.  
Look a the cock head they scream at me. 

Ive been placed here in heVen to amuse the christians it feels like. 

Why You rat bastards. 
 

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So if i could , and when you are ready guys. 

The bible verses to opt out of  heaven are required. 
Please.   

Ok,ok 
Ill say it . 
Can i please be forgiven.  ?

Guys ?
Youd forgive me hey ? 
Fellas ? 
For givies please 

Do i have to beg.?
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@n8nrgim

n8nrgim,

Your lengthy and wishful thinking dissertation upon Jesus' Forgiveness Doctrine" is all for naught because of the following Jesus inspired passage, where there is a limit upon sinning, where PEDOPHILE Catholic priests that have died, are burning in hell, praise Jesus' revenge!  

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26)


NEXT TOTALLY BIBLE IGNORANT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "N8NRGIM" UPON JESUS' FORGIVENESS DOCTRINE, WILL BE ...?

.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
are you the only person on planet earth who is a TRUE christian? how many TRUE christians are there?
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@n8nrgim
Christians are split on this, and it largely depends on what you mean by "forgive." Human forgiveness is not always the same as God's forgiveness. Forgiveness might require acceptance by the offender by definition, or it could simply mean no longer holding the offense against that person. I would say to forgive to the extent that it is in your power, but do not expect that the offender will necessarily accept it. We cannot always determine if repentance is genuine, but repentance of the offender is not something we can control anyway.

As we forgive those who trespass against us
I would default to being generous in forgiveness, since it will determine whether we are forgiven. Better to forgive too much than too little.

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@Savant
excellent post 
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@n8nrgim
just as we are only forgiven if we repent
Where in the Bible does it say that we wont be forgiven if we dont repent?

Of course, repentance is beneficial, but not mandatory for forgiveness.

And forgiving people without having them repent first can be beneficial too.
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@Best.Korea
i mean, i can see arguing that we are saved by faith and not faith and works, but i think by far even most reputable protestant theologians would say repentance is necessary. jesus is always talking about the need to do good, and to repent. in the letter james, he says we are justified with faith and works. of course, you can interpret these things to mean that doing good isn't what saves you, but you have to at least acknowledge that doing good or having a propensity to do good is required. as martin luther said in the reformation.... we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. 

how can you possibly think repentance isn't necessary to be saved? 
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What I am talking about, just to be clear, is not about forgiving the terrorists.
My opposition to war in Iraq did not rise from me forgiving the terrorists, but rather from preventing further loss of life.

What I do think is that asking repentance for things like "he called me an idiot" seems pointless, harmful and stupid.

Also, the idea that "someone, who did much more good than harm, will go to hell because he forgot to repent after calling someone an idiot" seems absurd.
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well, there's repentance of each sin, but there's also repentance of all one's sins generally. and there's also being sorry for sins you refuse to stop doing, which is a kind of repentance. i guess it depends on your context. 
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@n8nrgim
how can you possibly think repentance isn't necessary to be saved? 
I believe that person, who does lots of good and very little harm, will be saved even if that person failed to repent during his lifetime for the very little harm that he caused.
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@n8nrgim
Hm,
The idea of forgiveness 'is vague in my head.

When I was I child, I prayed for a man to find reconciliation with what I saw as the right path in life,
That he do good an not evil, as he had been doing (According to my view)
I did not bear hatred for him, but a desire that he stop his evil, that good come to him and other people.
My mother praised such an attitude in me.
Though nowadays I am an Atheist.
. . .

Forgiveness though, definition, definition,
I forgive my second brother for any of his acts towards his family,
But this does not mean I or my family intend to let him do whatever 'he wants, if what he wants is to mooch and do drugs.
This could be considered working against him,

'Is reconciliation necessary?
Let's say there was some madman about town, killing people,
Can I not forgive him for his actions, yet kill them nonetheless, to protect people in the town?

To my sense, forgiveness vaguely means to hold no ill will for an action,
And yet, I see in my examples,
(Not saying my examples are 'right or true definition, just the examples that come to my mind)
I forgive a person, yet stay mindful of possible consequences, stay on guard, act against.
Even to the point of killing them, in the thought experiment.
. . .

What's Webster say?
1
": to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) PARDON
forgive one's enemies
2a
to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see REQUITAL sense 1 for
forgive an insult
b
to grant relief from payment of
forgive a debt"

I see two senses of the word,
Forgiveness in feeling,
Or forgiveness in action.
. . .

Hm, and now skimmed through post ##5,
It's dense text, but it speaks it's points well.
Seems to me it's argument is be 'willing to forgive, that people can reconcile,
But it still argues the person needs 'be repentant.

Of the priests,
Might have been better if they sent them to some highly monitored monastery, where they wore cameras.

'Previous thought I had of the priests, would be 'to tempt the priests afterward, in a kind of Catch A Predator Sting,
Then execute them if they proved unable to keep to morals other's agree with.
But, , ,
Bible 'does say,
"Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother."

So maybe the monitored exile monastery would be better.
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@n8nrgim
Sin and repentance are just made up stuff.

As far as we actually know, there is nothing to actually care.

Because the idea of something greater that actually cares, is made up too.

As far as we actually know, it is only human beings that make up stuff.

And then they say, it was a GOD what did it..... It must have been mustn't it.

Well, not necessarily.
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@zedvictor4
I don't think sin and repentance 'have to be in the religious tense.

So long as there is an 'observer. . .
Be they an individual looking upon themself, or another individual. . .


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@Lemming
For sure, we  can come to a fairly conclusive decision about the ethicality of certain behaviour.

Though repentance is not always so forthcoming.

Because repentance relies upon the individual rather than the collective.

So the collective invented punishment.



But I think the as this thread is posted in the Religion forum, the instigator had an obvious religious angle in mind.


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@zedvictor4
Fair point, on how this is in the religious section.

@NoOneInParticular, unfocused ramble.
Punishment seems more about making a person cry uncle and desist their actions, than their repentance,
Sorry by added on consequence,
Sorry for the punishment, rather than one's own actions and consequences, 'but for the punishment by others,
Though I suppose people 'do often fall into repentance due to consequences, realizing their mistake due to them,
Though there's a difference between outside caused consequences and non outside caused consequences,
I suppose the two mingle at times,
Such as when people commit crime,
There's the 'expectation that they will get away with it despite outside consequences, and yet 'because of that, it's also inside consequences.
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@n8nrgim
is it necessary for christians to forgive people who are unrepentant?


Unrepentant:  do you mean forgive  sins/ crimes of any one,  people we don't even know?


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@Lemming
For sure, some people will regret their actions, and perhaps sincerely apologise,

But of course, some people won't.

Though apologies are easy and not necessarily meaningful.

And the acceptance of an apology could also be sincere or meaningless.

And respect for the collective decision is not always forthcoming.


Within the context of religion, I personally think that sin and repentance is a load of bunkum.

Which harps back to the time when the Adam and Eve story was first told.

And was clearly the first religiously inspired analogy for sexual hang ups.
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@zedvictor4
There is ye Old Original Sin I suppose,
. . .

Is it such a bad 'concept?

It is not unusual for individuals or groups of people to have some defining event in their lives,
That set them a'course  on some line of life.

Someone's first crime,
Or first drug,
First time being a bully,

First time a nation takes freedom,
Or invades,
. . .

One can become mired and stuck,
With a single step into a swamp.
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@Lemming
Original sin is a silly concept.

In so much has it perpetuates an unnecessary mindset relative to the nature of the human body and it's normal functions.

Snakes and apples and fig leaves for goodness sake!


Always pleasant to chat with you.

Have a nice day.


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@n8nrgim
I suggest you look up Luke 17:1-10. 

Forgiveness requires repentance. 

And forgiveness is also a command. A duty. Not based on emotion or feelings.  


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@Tradesecret
Saying "if he repents, forgive him" doesnt say what happens if he doesnt repent.

Thats why I claim that some things can be forgiven to a person even if that person doesnt repent.

For example, Bible mentions "sin that doesnt lead to death".

There are small sins that simply should be forgiven and let go off, even if an offender doesnt repent.
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@Tradesecret
Forgiveness requires data processing.

As does repentance.

As far as we know, there is only one organism with an intellect capable of such abstract concepts.

Luke was just a copyist of uncertain origin.
n8nrgim
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@Tradesecret
is your stance both that a sin before God needs repented of, and also that another person shouldn't be forgiven by a victimized person if the other person doesn't repent?
BrotherD.Thomas
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@Stephen
@n8nrgim


n8nrgim,

Listen, don't let Miss Tradesecret's Bible Stupidity rub off on you, okay?  You are already in hot water when I had to correct you upon Jesus' Forgiven Doctrine, and that you remain silent upon for good reason. Miss Tradesecret is not called the #1 Bible Stupid fool for nothing within this prestigious forum, because of the simple FACT that I have had to correct her Bible ignorance many, many, many, many, many, many, many times!


Therefore, I have to correct the Bible inept Miss Tradesecret again with yet another Bible Stupid quote of hers herewith: "Forgiveness requires repentance. And forgiveness is also a command. A duty. Not based on emotion or feelings."  

Forgiveness DOES NOT require "repentance" as the dumbfounded Miss Tradesecret states because of the Jesus inspired passages shown below at her embarrassing expense, AGAIN!  

1. “For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)
2. “To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)
3. “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:14-15)


When I have to correct Miss Tradesecret ad infinitum, 99 percent of the time she has never seen the passages that Jesus and I bring forth in her behalf of being "Corrected" AGAIN because of her Bible Stupidity. Therefore, it is a win-win situation for us in me and Stephen correcting her Bible Duncery®️ where she can take her newly founded biblical knowledge of the scriptures back to her church congregation, even though she didn't think of it in the first place!  

.