UBI makes poor people work less

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Kaitlyn
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Unconditional income appears to make poor people work less, according to the research I've recently found from developed countries (Spain, Finland and Italy). As the first study I'll cover notes, developing countries are so poor that unconditional income helps things like health, educational outcomes and psychological well-being, so unconditional UBI for them might be okay, but let's have a look at UBI for developed countries.

In a paper published earlier this year (2023), Barcelona's poor people responded negatively to an unconditional UBI (roughly half the minimum wage of Spain) by having the main recipient be 20% less likely to work, whilst the household receiving the income was 14% less likely to have at least one member working. These negative outcomes persisted at least 6 months after the final UBI payment. This result appeared to be softly affected by care responsibilities of the household (i.e. taking care of children, elderly grandparents etc.) The Employment Effects of Generous and Unconditional Cash Support by Timo Verlaat, Federico Todeschini, Xavier Ramos :: SSRN

A study from Finland (Hamalainenet al. 2022) found there to be no employment effects (or "minor at best") after a year wherein unconditional income was given to a randomized group of 2000 people already on welfare benefits (as opposed the Barcelona's UBI which targeted the neighborhoods with lowest mean average income). It should be noted that this UBI handout was coupled with a "lowered participation tax rate [of] 23 percentage points for full-time employment," in other words a massive tax incentive for people to take up full-time work. Removing Welfare Traps: Employment Responses in the Finnish Basic Income Experiment - American Economic Association (aeaweb.org)

A similar Italian study conducted in Turin (Del Boca, D., Pronzato, C., and Sorrenti, G. (2021), directly compared giving conditional basic income to unconditional basic income, but only to households with children. These conditional income recipients were required to attend "mentoring courses regarding job-seeking and reconciliation between work and family tasks". 1500 people, all already eligible for welfare support and receiving it, were randomly split into three groups: (1) ones to be given conditional basic income, (2) one to be given unconditional basic income, and (3) ones who got nothing (control group). The cash transfer amounts to € 2500–3500, about 75 percent of recipients’ yearly labor income. This Italian study found that fathers assigned to the conditional basic income were 14% more likely to be employed than fathers giving unconditional income or the control group (of no income given). Interestingly, there was zero effect on mothers of any group. Conditional cash transfer programs and household labor supply - ScienceDirect 

From the three recent studies covered above, we can see that UBI doesn't appear to work at all if it's given unconditionally, even appearing to have a negative effect on aspects of employment. However, if the UBI is given conditionally with recipients being required to attend things like financial or family/work-life balance mentoring, there appear to be some positive results.
Best.Korea
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UBI? Yeah, cool.

The main problem with UBI as opposed to charity is that UBI pays for more than just basic needs and pays money to everyone.

I guess it is good to be giving mothers the money so they could be raising children instead of working.
 
It is good to give poor people food, water, clothes and house. However, giving them too much money? Probably a bit bad idea.

I see a lot of capitalists seeking workers, so I am a bit sure that for some people unemployment is a choice.
Sure, the capitalists are often shitty people and they abuse workers a bit too much, but that doesnt change the idea that unemployment is sometimes a choice and not something an individual is forced into.
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@Kaitlyn
The Jews will replace you.
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@Kaitlyn
Well, there's poor people and there's also lazy people.

And then there's work and there's putting in the time..

And then there's a pittance compared to unnecessarily high incomes.

And the difference between poor and lazy and rich and lazy doesn't offer the underpaid much incentive.

So make the underachievers work for a reasonable wage even if that means subsidy.

But don't just incentivise laziness.

Seems like common sense to me.


 Notwithstanding how consumer societies encourage people to spend unwisely.

Which I suppose is how such systems work.

So the answer would be to change the system, though I personally think that hierarchy is a social necessity.

Or more correctly the necessity of a successful society.


Or population control.

But that would realistically mean getting rid of expensive old duffers.

But expensive old duffers are also big business and cuddly.


So you somehow have to disincentivise over-breeding underachievers.

Probably with free cash hand outs....D'oh back to square one again.

And who will fight your wars when Kim and Ping invade.



Sorry.

Just rambling on a wet Sunday afternoon.


And let's not overlook the good hard working taxpayer, who was brought up on the principle of an honest days work for an honest days pay.

I think that they are still the beating heart of a reasonable society. (Slushy crap, sorry again).

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@Best.Korea
The main problem with UBI as opposed to charity is that UBI pays for more than just basic needs and pays money to everyone...It is good to give poor people food, water, clothes and house. However, giving them too much money? Probably a bit bad idea.
The studies show that conditional UBI for poor people in developed countries seems to help them out in regards to employment. It can pay for more than just basic needs, hence why the mentoring on investing is needed so that these poor people receiving UBI don't just blow the money on rich people items (which is a typical poor person spending habit).

I guess it is good to be giving mothers the money so they could be raising children instead of working.
The Italian study that tested for this showed giving mothers money had no impact, regardless of whether the money was conditional or not. 

Sure, the capitalists are often shitty people and they abuse workers a bit too much, but that doesnt change the idea that unemployment is sometimes a choice and not something an individual is forced into.
That's why the UBI needs to be conditional. None of the studies found unconditional UBI to be positive, and one even found it to be negative. Therefore, I don't think UBI should go to people who are choosing to be unemployed. 
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@Kaitlyn
Republicans think that giving money to rich people causes them to work more, and giving money to poor people causes them to work less.
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@b9_ntt
Republicans think that giving money to rich people causes them to work more, and giving money to poor people causes them to work less.
Only people infected by Marxist conceptual framework can confuse themselves in this manner.

The obvious and straightforward relationship is that people who are rewarded in proportion to their production tend to produce more than those who aren't and by "tend" I mean nearly a law of behavior.

If you pay a poor person to loaf, they will loaf. If you pay them to make coffee they will make coffee. If you paid a rich person to loaf, they will loaf. If you paid them to oversee a company they will oversee a company. What matters is the association between failure and loss of rewards.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
That's a very Pavlovian view. Stimulus/response.
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@b9_ntt
Isn't that a dessert of meringue and cream decorated with either raspberries or strawberries.
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@Kaitlyn
I.I.B.
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@b9_ntt
Republicans think that giving money to rich people causes them to work more, and giving money to poor people causes them to work less.
We don't need to know what Republicans think, in order to reach a reasonable conclusion about the OP's claim. This is an irrelevant tangent.

Instead, we should focus on deciphering and synthesizing the results of various studies, in order to reach a coherent, informed conclusion. 
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@Sidewalker
The Jews will replace you.
You won't like what they replacing law abiding, middle class whites with. Besides if you want to live in a third world shitholes,. You don't have to live in thee United States, you can go live in Haiti and see if you like living in future America.
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@PREZ-HILTON
Ah, yes. The big bad Jews are coming for you. You better watch out. And the blacks ... OMG!!
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@b9_ntt
Ah, yes. The big bad Jews are coming for you. You better watch out. And the blacks ... OMG!!

I literally responded to a post where you claimed they would genocide whites. 


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@PREZ-HILTON
I think you confused me with Sidewalker,
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@b9_ntt
Okay my bad. I was accepting his premises for the sake of argument. 
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@PREZ-HILTON
Got it.
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@PREZ-HILTON
The Jews will replace you.
You won't like what they replacing law abiding, middle class whites with. Besides if you want to live in a third world shitholes,. You don't have to live in thee United States, you can go live in Haiti and see if you like living in future America.
Don't respond to his trolling. Wait until he makes a more substantial argument, then crush it. The reason he trolls is because his real arguments are weak, and trolling gives him strength despite his weakness.


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@Kaitlyn
Don't respond to his trolling. Wait until he makes a more substantial argument, then crush it
I will do whatever you tell me Goddess. 
Kaitlyn
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@PREZ-HILTON
Don't respond to his trolling. Wait until he makes a more substantial argument, then crush it
I will do whatever you tell me Goddess. 
I don't mind being called a Goddess :)

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@Kaitlyn
Unions also make people work less too.
Kaitlyn
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@Reece101
Unions also make people work less too.
Would you like to provide any evidence/data to show this?
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@PREZ-HILTON
Some Jews are whitish.


The trouble with people drawing attention to specialness, is that it pisses of people who also think that they are also special.

Same as it ever was.
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Looking to govt to solve this issue would be the first step into abject failure and even more poverty. But then again isn't that the plan, equal suffering.
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
Looking to govt to solve this issue would be the first step into abject failure and even more poverty. But then again isn't that the plan, equal suffering.
The data and analysis shows that conditional income seemed to be helping these people get back on their feet. You don't have to be a socialist to agree with that.
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@Kaitlyn
Of course they would be better off if you give them  money, any one would. The point is permanent ever increasing  unsustainable dependence on govt. They will never be satisfied and will demand more and more money. Old as time itself. The US Govt welfare system as exhibit A.
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@sadolite
Of course they would be better off if you give them  money, any one would. The point is permanent ever increasing  unsustainable dependence on govt. They will never be satisfied and will demand more and more money. Old as time itself. The US Govt welfare system as exhibit A.
Not just giving them money, but giving them money under the proviso that they attend mandatory mentoring sessions to help them invest and be gainfully employed. The studies in the OP are suggesting that conditional welfare checks may help some of these people out of poverty.

None of the studies I read suggested giving them free money with no strings attached.
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@Kaitlyn
"None of the studies I read suggested giving them free money with no strings attached."  That will immediately be shot down using the race card.  The poor and minorities cant do what you ask. Just like they cant get an ID to vote. Good luck with the idea anyway.
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One day people will be so dumbed down we will have to make pornos and coloring books about the Federal Reserve and fractional banking
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
"None of the studies I read suggested giving them free money with no strings attached."  That will immediately be shot down using the race card. 
We don't know that for sure, and in any case, the studies show it's the best course of action (if you can get it passed).

The poor and minorities cant do what you ask.  Just like they cant get an ID to vote.
I don't care about the 70 I.Q. inbreds who can't figure out how to attain ID, let alone a voting booth.

This is to help people who are unlucky but could prosper with a helping hand. 

Some people are poor because they were born into unfortunate circumstances. Some people are poor because their genetics are trash. The studies show helping the former is a good idea.