Morality is Objective.

Author: YouFound_Lxam

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@YouFound_Lxam
By Dr Steve Brewer:

Morality has both subjective and objective components. The objective component is provided by the laws of Game Theory. The subjective element is the strategy selected by a player attempting to maximize their personal reward.
Game theory describes the competitive or collaborative strategies that a rational agent can use to maximise their benefit in any situation. (In this context, a rational agent is someone capable of thinking about then acting in their own best interest.) Often, cooperation provides the optimum outcome for all interacting parties, but at any time an agent might break the contract in an attempt to increase their own rewards. Such an action might have short term benefits, but it has been shown that in a series of interaction games, such a cheat will lose out because the others will soon refuse further cooperation. There are, therefore, substantial individual and group advantages to keeping such a contract. This ‘reciprocal altruism’, where the group rewards collaboration and punishes the cheat, is modelled by the ‘tit-for-tat’ strategy in Game Theory.
I would argue with the Mathematical Platonists that abstract mathematical ideas are mind-independent entities. Like any other object, they can be discovered and verified by anyone with the right equipment – in this case a skill in mathematics. Therefore, the outcome of our moral behavior, subject to the laws of relationships determined by the mathematical objects of Game Theory, in this sense are objective. However, the strategies are subjectively chosen by agents acting in what they perceive to be their own best interest. Their choices may or may not coincide with supporting the social order.
Human civilization is highly dependent on the operation of Game Theory’s reciprocal altruism. A society’s moral codes are attempts to ensure that individuals choose the collaborative strategy over many ‘plays’, that is, social interactions. Although the moral rules encapsulated by the Golden Rule (‘Do unto others…’) and Law of Retaliation (‘an eye for an eye’) are simple, in practice they can become very complex. Human agents are playing many parallel games in an ever-changing social and physical environment, with no guarantee of group success. To retain social cohesion, the moral code may incorporate many complex taboos or ritualistic actions, lack of compliance with which can be used as an explanation of the group’s failures. An agent, however, is always free to challenge the code by choosing the antisocial strategy. In such cases the agent will find themselves in peril of retribution in the form of tribal or civil law.
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@YouFound_Lxam
The definition that I proposed is a stable definition for morality. 
Although it’s essentially the definition for ethics.

I side on the side of Deontologically. The choice of the person, (the drive) overall determines the morality of the action or thought. 
To be clear, motives within the court of law are independent of consequentialism and deontologicalism.

But anyway…

A person in a deontological mindset would say killing is wrong.
A person in a consequentialist mindset has to think about the consequences of said action.
We are all moral agents no matter how many rules you abide by.

Yes. 
But people who claim that they try to base their life off of an objective moral system that they follow usually have a happy and fulfilling lifestyle.  
This reminds me of a quote… “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” It’s easy to feel happy and fulfilled when you don’t have to think too hard about what’s good or bad.

But anyway, their true happiness comes from community. We are social creatures after all. 
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This reminds me of a quote… “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” It’s easy to feel happy and fulfilled when you don’t have to think too hard about what’s good or bad.

But anyway, their true happiness comes from community. We are social creatures after all. 
Religion is what bases society. It doesn't matter if your religious or not. Most people, non-religious and religious say that religion is good for society because it is. It puts a moral standard in life, and keeps family's together, and has the fear of God put inside those who might want to do evil. 

Although it’s essentially the definition for ethics.
Can be used for morality. 

To be clear, motives within the court of law are independent of consequentialism and deontologicalism.

But anyway…

A person in a deontological mindset would say killing is wrong.
A person in a consequentialist mindset has to think about the consequences of said action.
We are all moral agents no matter how many rules you abide by.
Yes, I am aware of this. 

A person in a consequentialist mindset would say that if the outcome is bad, then the action is bad. 
Then you have to ask yourself, how they know bad from good? How did they already have that moral sense of good and bad?
 

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@Tarik
It would be an approximation of justice
But in order to know that you’ll also have to know what actual justice looks like.
I have an idea about justice. It works most of the time. We are all in the same boat, otherwise we would not need judges.

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I have an idea about justice.
That idea can only be communicated through objectivity.
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@Tarik
That idea can only be communicated through objectivity.
I don't understand that. Can you elaborate?

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@b9_ntt
I don't understand that. Can you elaborate?
Objective is synonymous with just, and the definition of just is based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.
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@Tarik
I get it as not letting my personal feelings influence my appraisal of what is just.
Getting back to my original point, we are all fallible. That's why we need judges and juries.
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I get it as not letting my personal feelings influence my appraisal of what is just.
But I thought you didn’t believe in objective justice?
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@Tarik
I don't. I think we are using objective in two different senses.
To me, objective is not letting my feelings influence me.
Another sense is something not subject to anyone's influence. That is, objective in all times and places. I don't believe in that one.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Religion is what bases society. It doesn't matter if your religious or not. Most people, non-religious and religious say that religion is good for society because it is. It puts a moral standard in life, and keeps family's together, and has the fear of God put inside those who might want to do evil. 
Aren’t irreligious countries the happiest? Also aren’t the murder rates in red states the highest in the US? Though you might have a point about divorce, it says little about the toxicity of said relationships.

Yes, I am aware of this. 

A person in a consequentialist mindset would say that if the outcome is bad, then the action is bad. 
Then you have to ask yourself, how they know bad from good? How did they already have that moral sense of good and bad?
The same way people have thought for more than 100,000 years. We are not perfect moral beings just as our ancestors weren’t. 
Though I can go deeper in so far as to argue morality has a strong evolutionary basis. Even if it’s self-evident that many animals have moral inclinations.
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To me, objective is not letting my feelings influence me.
Then how do you appraise justice? What do you draw from?
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@Reece101
Aren’t irreligious countries the happiest?
Noooooo. Definitely not. 

Also aren’t the murder rates in red states the highest in the US?
Red states does not always equivalate religion, so I don't know where your going with this. Also red states mostly have high crime, yes, but it is taken place mostly in the blue citys of those states. 

The same way people have thought for more than 100,000 years. We are not perfect moral beings just as our ancestors weren’t. 
Though I can go deeper in so far as to argue morality has a strong evolutionary basis. Even if it’s self-evident that many animals have moral inclinations.
If a dog, steals a bone, would you say that dog is commiting a moral sin? 
According to evolution, our closest animal relative is a monkey. Yet the same applies for them. 

How do we as humans have a distinctive moral drive and a moral code, while animals do not?
Animals moral code is based upon survival. They couldn't care less if one of these own was to die for the greater good. 
You also don't see any murderous animals for no reason, or geocidal animals, simply for fun. 

If you had to survive on an island with 5 other people, and for some reason you had to kill one of the members for everyone's survival, would you not skip a beat, or would you think about it?

That is what separates us from animals morally. 





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@YouFound_Lxam
The world's happiest countries are also among the least religious, according to a UN report from 2018, 
The results are pooled from Gallup World Poll surveys from 2015-2017 and are based on six key variables which the report says have been found to support well-being: income, healthy life expectancy, social support, freedom, trust and generosity.
The chart, which for the first time measured the happiness of immigrants in each country, is striking in that the happiest 10 countries in the world are also among the least religious.
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Show me. 

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Even if this were true though, happiness, meaning pleasure does not always mean good. 
Structure and Law is good, but not always happy. 
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If a dog, steals a bone, would you say that dog is commiting a moral sin? 
According to evolution, our closest animal relative is a monkey. Yet the same applies for them. 
Was the dog taught that stealing is wrong? Take jumping on the dining table to help itself to a meal as an example. If you tell it off enough times, it will learn that’s bad behaviour. That’s how kids learn and some adults for that matter, through various punishments. While rewards work to reinforce good behaviour. Puppies get growled at by their father, mother when they’re too hypo, they then calm and lay down. That’s their miss-behaviour being corrected. They also learn social dynamics from each other through play, just like humans.

Humans are great apes. Our closest living relatives are other great apes such as chimpanzees, so I’ll use them to explain. Plus they can be taught sign language if that helps you relate to them better. Okay, so everything above essentially applies to chimpanzees. Though I’m not sure how they usually parent. I know gorillas are very chill parents from what I’ve seen. Anyway, about chimpanzees.. they have a patriarchal hierarchy. If the dominant male is too greedy, he will get ousted in favour of a chimp that’s looked upon more favourably by the group. Yes, they are very political. They have social standings with each other which can help them go further and therefore reproduce. Though they are very hostile to outside groups.  Bonobos (another closely related great ape) on the other hand are matriarchal, and they often greet outside groups with sex. Anyway, sorry about the tangent.



How do we as humans have a distinctive moral drive and a moral code, while animals do not?
Animals moral code is based upon survival. They couldn't care less if one of these own was to die for the greater good. 
Staying with chimpanzees, it’s been documented that a mother chimpanzee has carried around the corpse of her dead baby to the point of starving herself. 
Anyway, elephants are famous for mourning their dead. It’s also been documented they have starved themselves while laying next to their dead. They also return to the body after some period of time to pick up their bones as if they still mourn. 

You also don't see any murderous animals for no reason, or genocidal animals, simply for fun. 
Chimpanzees have been known to form raiding parties to hunt down smaller groups nearby.


If you had to survive on an island with 5 other people, and for some reason you had to kill one of the members for everyone's survival, would you not skip a beat, or would you think about it?

That is what separates us from animals morally. 
Let’s change it up. 3 of the people with you are your kids. 

Very little separates us from other animals morally. 
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Even if this were true though, happiness, meaning pleasure does not always mean good. 
Structure and Law is good, but not always happy. 

Pretty fucking funny. 
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@Tarik
Then how do you appraise justice? What do you draw from?
I draw from my experience, from reading, and from thinking, all of which are subjective. And from the law, interpretations of the law, and the opinions of others. It's all very ad hoc, and I can't say that it's the best way to go about it. I do not believe in a completely objective justice, one which would apply equally well to all times and places. Again, that's why we have judges.
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@Reece101
Was the dog taught that stealing is wrong?
No. And even if it was taught to not steal the bone, it wouldn't understand that stealing the bone was morally wrong. The dog might get taught with discipline and treats what to do and not to do, but it doesn't understand the moral value of it. 

 Take jumping on the dining table to help itself to a meal as an example. If you tell it off enough times, it will learn that’s bad behaviour.
Yes, it will learn that it is a bad behavior, not that it is a moral sin. 

That’s how kids learn and some adults for that matter, through various punishments. While rewards work to reinforce good behaviour. Puppies get growled at by their father, mother when they’re too hypo, they then calm and lay down. That’s their miss-behaviour being corrected. They also learn social dynamics from each other through play, just like humans.
Kids who aren't taught to not steal still see stealing as a bad thing. 
Dogs won't know stealing is morally bad, regardless of discipline.
Humans will. 

Staying with chimpanzees, it’s been documented that a mother chimpanzee has carried around the corpse of her dead baby to the point of starving herself. 
Emotions are different than morals. 


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No. And even if it was taught to not steal the bone, it wouldn't understand that stealing the bone was morally wrong. The dog might get taught with discipline and treats what to do and not to do, but it doesn't understand the moral value of it. 
Again, you’re confusing morality with ethics. Morality is merely the distinction between good and bad, right and wrong. 

Yes, it will learn that it is a bad behavior, not that it is a moral sin. 
It is morality by the “objective” definition. 

Kids who aren't taught to not steal still see stealing as a bad thing. 
Dogs won't know stealing is morally bad, regardless of discipline.
Humans will. 
they would know through media and other means. 
Dogs aren’t that capable of understanding human language. Well body language they somewhat understand. They’ll try to protect you if you’re attacked.
Also if you’re in trouble and they need another human to come and help, they might try to get the attention of the nearest human. 

Emotions are different than morals. 
Emotions inform morals. 
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@Reece101
Again, you’re confusing morality with ethics. Morality is merely the distinction between good and bad, right and wrong. 
No, it is not.

Morality is knowing what is good and what is wrong, despite what your body or your mind tells you.

they would know through media and other means. 
Dogs aren’t that capable of understanding human language. Well body language they somewhat understand. They’ll try to protect you if you’re attacked.
Also if you’re in trouble and they need another human to come and help, they might try to get the attention of the nearest human. 
Again, training, and emotional response is not the same as having a moral conscience. 


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Morality is knowing what is good and what is wrong, despite what your body or your mind tells you.
And this is why people who claim to have objective morals are dangerous when they get into power. 

Again, training, and emotional response is not the same as having a moral conscience. 
What is a moral conscience without our humanity? 
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@Reece101
What is a moral conscience without our humanity? 
A soul. A human conscience without a body. 


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@YouFound_Lxam
Morality and ethics are abstract concepts.

You can interpret them yourself

Or someone will interpret them for you.

And then there's social behaviour, where similar rules apply.
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Again, that's why we have judges.
Yourself included, I’m sure you would judge someone that killed all your loved ones and got away with it. There can’t be injustice if there’s no such thing as justice.
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@Tarik
I’m sure you would judge someone that killed all your loved ones and got away with it. There can’t be injustice if there’s no such thing as justice.
Yes, that would be injustice by my standards.
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@b9_ntt
Yes, that would be injustice by my standards.
What’s the point of having any standards if they can’t be proven objectively?
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@Tarik
You have to have standards or else no one would know what is allowed & what is not. Laws provide the objectivity. In some societies, law enforcement favors certain groups over others, but it's better than nothing.
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@b9_ntt
In some societies, law enforcement favors certain groups over others, but it's better than nothing.
How do you prove that?