The transgenderism debate

Author: YouFound_Lxam

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#481
Sidewalker
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@Greyparrot
 It's possible to treat schizophrenics, alcoholics, drug addicts, depression, suicide, anorexia, bulimia with dignity without appeasing their impulses that extend from mental disorder. Therefore, it should be possible to treat transgender people with dignity without appeasing their impulses that extend from mental disorder.
I have no idea what that means.
#482
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@Sidewalker
I love you.
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#483
YouFound_Lxam
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@Sidewalker
The problem is people are doing the things you listed, and your solution is to imagine that they aren;t doing these things?  That's the plan?  OK, but how do you implement this amazing plan, magic?  Wishful thinking?   Totalitarianism perhaps?
I am not a politician, so I don't know the exact steps that go into making these things happen. You asked what should be done about it, and I told you what we should do about it. However, the government does it, I don't care, as long as it gets done. 
#484
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@YouFound_Lxam
The problem is people are doing the things you listed, and your solution is to imagine that they aren;t doing these things?  That's the plan?  OK, but how do you implement this amazing plan, magic?  Wishful thinking?   Totalitarianism perhaps?
I am not a politician, so I don't know the exact steps that go into making these things happen. You asked what should be done about it, and I told you what we should do about it
So you admit that it's just wishful thinking, you have no solution, you are just whining.

However, the government does it, I don't care, as long as it gets done.
You mean a totalitarian government does it.


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#485
YouFound_Lxam
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@Sidewalker
So you admit that it's just wishful thinking, you have no solution, you are just whining.
No, I am saying that there are these problems, and we need to stop these problems. Are all American citizens whining when they vote for certain laws to pass? 

You mean a totalitarian government does it.
When the hell did I ever say that? 



#486
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@YouFound_Lxam
So you admit that it's just wishful thinking, you have no solution, you are just whining.
No, I am saying that there are these problems, and we need to stop these problems.
Like I said, you are just whining, youhave no solution.  “I don’t like the waythings are, make it stop mommy”, that is whining.

Are all American citizens whining when they vote for certain laws to pass? 
We don’t vote for laws, we vote forlawmakers.  Don't they have civics class in highschool anymore?

You mean a totalitarian government does it.
When the hell did I ever say that? 
It’s what you always say, always, do you even know what atotalitarian state is? 

You are advocating state control over individual and group ideologies,centralized control over the diversity in various legislations, some parents think it’sappropriate to take their children to drag queen storybook reading, you disapproveand you want the state to control how people choose to raise their children,you want the state to take control over sports, sports for God’s sake, are yougoing to nationalize fucking sports, all of them?  You advocate state control over the ideologyof bathroom use even. 

You are advocating total state control and regulation overpublic and private life, the elimination of diversity of opinions andideologies, and the elimination of any different group’s freedoms.  You are advocating  complete subservience to the state.

Look it up, read about what a totalitarian state is, andrecognize that what you are advocating is the very definition oftotalitarianism.

It’s a culture war, you made it aboutideologies, you want to eliminate diversity of opinions and beliefs, and there is only one form ofgovernment that can eliminate the “so called” problem of diversity, and that istotalitarianism, and that is what you are advocating, whether you know it ornot.


#487
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@Kaitlyn
In other words, this "largely ostracized" group doesn't appear to be killing itself because of the ostracization -- this contradicts your argument.
Except that as I have already pointed out to you, your own source disagrees...

Victimisation and mental health were key risk factors across the dimension self-harm and suicide identified through all analyses.

We're not talking about medical advice which I don't know a whole lot about, wherein I have to trust others because I don't understand much. We're talking about the highly politicized topic of transgenderism and the fact that I think the narrative from the "experts" doesn't fit the data.
If you know anything about how data works you know it can be interpreted many different ways based on many different factors. Think of a poll where 80% of respondents answer a certain way, but then they ask the same question differently and suddenly it's a 50/50 split. You need to understand the full extent of the experiment to understand the take away.

This doesn't mean we should blindly trust the conclusions of the experiments authors, but unless you have a complete understanding of what questions were asked and what methods of control were established, you're in a pretty weak position to claim you understand the data better than they do, and based on your ignorance of what the authors were even concluding, I have no reason to believe you've done any of that. And even if you did, that might be worse, because seriously, do you really have nothing better to do with yourself?

It's possible to treat schizophrenics with dignity without appeasing their impulses that extend from mental disorder. Therefore, it should be possible to treat transgender people with dignity without appeasing their impulses that extend from mental disorder.
 You're comparing apples to oranges.

"Transgenderism" is where a person says "this is who I am". Schizophrenia is where one person creates two or more "different people" within their own mind.

Treating a schizophrenic with dignity would mean embracing each personality as a legitimate person. The parallel to that with transgender people use to do just that which you are vehemently arguing against.

We treat schizophrenia as a serious condition because those suffering from it are either a danger to themselves or others, or because the patient does not wish to continue being subjected to their condition.

None of this applies to transgendered people. There is no evidence they are a danger to others any more than the average person regardless of how much manufactured nonsense the political right concocts, and they clearly do not wish to be treated.

I don't believe this for a second lol. You got caught out and are trying the whole 'my argument was intentionally bad'.
What stupid response.

I just explained what I was talking about from start to finish. What part of that was difficult to understand?


#488
Kaitlyn
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@Double_R
In other words, this "largely ostracized" group doesn't appear to be killing itself because of the ostracization -- this contradicts your argument.
Except that as I have already pointed out to you, your own source disagrees...

Victimisation and mental health were key risk factors across the dimension self-harm and suicide identified through all analyses.
From the same study, roughly 76% of transgender people did not cite "victimization" as a reason for their suicidal thoughts or attempted suicides. The large majority of transgender people are not affected by victimization to any noticeable degree. The large majority of transgender people are not committing suicide, thinking about suicide or feeling bad due to victimization -- you need another explanation for the 76%.

We're not talking about medical advice which I don't know a whole lot about, wherein I have to trust others because I don't understand much. We're talking about the highly politicized topic of transgenderism and the fact that I think the narrative from the "experts" doesn't fit the data.
If you know anything about how data works you know it can be interpreted many different ways based on many different factors. Think of a poll where 80% of respondents answer a certain way, but then they ask the same question differently and suddenly it's a 50/50 split. You need to understand the full extent of the experiment to understand the take away.

This doesn't mean we should blindly trust the conclusions of the experiments authors, but unless you have a complete understanding of what questions were asked and what methods of control were established, you're in a pretty weak position to claim you understand the data better than they do, and based on your ignorance of what the authors were even concluding, I have no reason to believe you've done any of that. And even if you did, that might be worse, because seriously, do you really have nothing better to do with yourself?
At the end of the day, the arguments I'm making are either right or wrong. The science on transgender people isn't that complicated and thus we can pretty easily assess when someone is right or wrong on the topic. If you don't think I'm doing a good job, that's your opinion, but all that matters is whether my arguments are right or wrong.

It's possible to treat schizophrenics with dignity without appeasing their impulses that extend from mental disorder. Therefore, it should be possible to treat transgender people with dignity without appeasing their impulses that extend from mental disorder.
 You're comparing apples to oranges.

"Transgenderism" is where a person says "this is who I am". Schizophrenia is where one person creates two or more "different people" within their own mind.

Treating a schizophrenic with dignity would mean embracing each personality as a legitimate person. The parallel to that with transgender people use to do just that which you are vehemently arguing against.

We treat schizophrenia as a serious condition because those suffering from it are either a danger to themselves or others, or because the patient does not wish to continue being subjected to their condition.

None of this applies to transgendered people. There is no evidence they are a danger to others any more than the average person regardless of how much manufactured nonsense the political right concocts, and they clearly do not wish to be treated.
Both transgender people and schizophrenics are humans who have mental illness -- that's apples to apples. If we're able to afford one dignity and respect, even to a limited degree, we should be able to proffer the same to the other. You can treat a person with dignity without appeasing products of their mental illness -- we don't have to embrace schizophrenic's multiple personalities as real in order to treat them with dignity for being a human being.

I have already covered the research demonstrating that transgender people have far higher intolerance rates, criminality and impulses to bully -- I consider those to be indications of being a danger to others. Transgender people are also dangerous to themselves because their mental illness makes them want to cut themselves into the opposite gender, and they have far higher suicidal rates than the general population *even after* all their wishes to transition, have certain pronouns etc. are appeased. All the sources can be found here under the appropriate argument heading: The transgenderism debate (debateart.com) 
#489
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@Kaitlyn
Perpetuated overthink becomes an accepted norm over time.
 
Religions are an obvious example.

And trans-genderism will probably become the same.

So I'm not sure that overthink can rightly be regarded as a mental illness per se.

I would suggest that mental stress/illness is a side effect of overthink.

We are a species prone to obsession, because intellect and material development afford us the opportunities to become obsessive.


#490
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@Kaitlyn
The large majority of transgender people are not committing suicide, thinking about suicide or feeling bad due to victimization -- you need another explanation for the 76%.
Actually I don't. This is a classic argument from ignorance fallacy. It is not my responsibility to come up with alternative explanations for why they commit suicide, it is your responsibility as the person making this claim to demonstrate that their "mental illness" is the culprit.

Cite the part of the study saying this, because I just looked again and it says this:

"Evidence demonstrated high prevalence of victimisation (36%) and mental health difficulties (39%) within these populations. Our review shows that these experiences were respectively 3.74 times and 2.67 times higher among young LGBTQ+ people than their cisgender, heterosexual counterparts."

At the end of the day, the arguments I'm making are either right or wrong.
Actually, let's be a bit more precise; the arguments you're making are either valid or invalid. That matters in how we go about assessing this because validity is merely the result of the conclusion following from the premises, but that's meaningless when it's the premises that I'm challenging you on in the first place.

Again, the point I brought up here is that the authors who actually conducted the studies are in a much better position to explain the take away because they understand the full extent of what methods and controls were used to get to their results.

So either you fully understand the controls and methods or you don't. Which is it? If I were to challenge you on any random study you cited and ask you about them would you, without having to cheat, be able to explain it?

Both transgender people and schizophrenics are humans who have mental illness -- that's apples to apples.
Taking two entirely different things and calling them the same doesn't make them the same.

I already explained the fundamental difference between these two things and why it matters here. Do you have a response to that, or are you just going to pretend I didn't explain it?

#491
Kaitlyn
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@Double_R
The large majority of transgender people are not committing suicide, thinking about suicide or feeling bad due to victimization -- you need another explanation for the 76%.
Actually I don't. This is a classic argument from ignorance fallacy. It is not my responsibility to come up with alternative explanations for why they commit suicide, it is your responsibility as the person making this claim to demonstrate that their "mental illness" is the culprit.

Cite the part of the study saying this, because I just looked again and it says this:

"Evidence demonstrated high prevalence of victimisation (36%) and mental health difficulties (39%) within these populations. Our review shows that these experiences were respectively 3.74 times and 2.67 times higher among young LGBTQ+ people than their cisgender, heterosexual counterparts."
Originally, this study was one of many studies that I cited to make a case against victimization being the cause of transgender suicides (as well as a larger case for transgenderism being a mental illness: The transgenderism debate (debateart.com) ). It's essentially a counter-argument to your original argument that was something along the lines of 'transgender people are very poorly treated by society, hence the suicide rate'.

Again, just to be super clear: this particular argument I made (and the study you're referring to) is not proof that transgender people are mentally ill. Rather, it's only arguing against your idea that victimization explains transgender suicide rates.

So, we do need another explanation for the 76% who aren't committing suicide and having suicidal thoughts due to victimization. 

Later in my post I've referenced, I wrote the title "Transgender people have many, many indications of mental illness". That's where I mostly make an affirmative case for transgenderism being a mental disorder.

Thus, it's not an argument from ignorance because I am making an affirmative case elsewhere.

At the end of the day, the arguments I'm making are either right or wrong.
Actually, let's be a bit more precise; the arguments you're making are either valid or invalid. That matters in how we go about assessing this because validity is merely the result of the conclusion following from the premises, but that's meaningless when it's the premises that I'm challenging you on in the first place.

Again, the point I brought up here is that the authors who actually conducted the studies are in a much better position to explain the take away because they understand the full extent of what methods and controls were used to get to their results.

So either you fully understand the controls and methods or you don't. Which is it? If I were to challenge you on any random study you cited and ask you about them would you, without having to cheat, be able to explain it?
This isn't a matter for debate.

76% isn't a majority. The authors can say whatever they want, but 76% isn't a majority. The majority of transgender people aren't committing suicide due to victimization. It's only a "key factor" for 24%. It's not a "key factor" for 76%. 

You're attempting to contest something that isn't contestable. 

Both transgender people and schizophrenics are humans who have mental illness -- that's apples to apples.
Taking two entirely different things and calling them the same doesn't make them the same.

I already explained the fundamental difference between these two things and why it matters here. Do you have a response to that, or are you just going to pretend I didn't explain it?
I didn't call them the same. I argued that they were the same in some regard. That's what an analogy is.

I've re-read it and I still think my response responds to your response, so I'm just going to copy-paste it. If you don't want to respond to it, oh well:

Both transgender people and schizophrenics are humans who have mental illness -- that's apples to apples. If we're able to afford one dignity and respect, even to a limited degree, we should be able to proffer the same to the other. You can treat a person with dignity without appeasing products of their mental illness -- we don't have to embrace schizophrenic's multiple personalities as real in order to treat them with dignity for being a human being.

I have already covered the research demonstrating that transgender people have far higher intolerance rates, criminality and impulses to bully -- I consider those to be indications of being a danger to others. Transgender people are also dangerous to themselves because their mental illness makes them want to cut themselves into the opposite gender, and they have far higher suicidal rates than the general population *even after* all their wishes to transition, have certain pronouns etc. are appeased. All the sources can be found here under the appropriate argument heading: The transgenderism debate (debateart.com) 
#492
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@Kaitlyn
There are a lot of people who think CBT is a relic of the past and that ONLY pharmacology and surgical medical science has the solutions, whether it is with hormone replacement or with the surgical knife. Some also believe it's more important and necessary to fundamentally change the systemic framework of a society than engage in the archaic practice of CBT in EVERY case.

Fortunately we have seen a microcosm of such thinking with the recent "defund the police" movements and a societal shift away from behavior correctional facilities. Over the past few years, we have witnessed a growing movement advocating for the defunding of police departments and a shift away from traditional behavior correctional facilities. This has been fueled by concerns over police brutality, racial profiling, and the disproportionate incarceration of minorities. Lots of people believe that traditional law enforcement and correctional institutions are not effective in addressing the root causes of crime, and that a more "modern" approach that addresses social and economic factors is needed. I really think it is important to recognize that CBT will always play an important role in maintaining public safety and providing rehabilitation for offenders. Ultimately, the key to addressing these issues will be to find a balance between traditional law enforcement and correctional institutions and more progressive approaches that address underlying social and economic factors.

Trying to change  society to accommodate aberrant behavior in EVERY case isn't sustainable. If you are interested, you should look into the recent (short lived) formation of CHAZ/CHOP as an example of a society that went full steam in that direction.


#493
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@Kaitlyn
So, we do need another explanation for the 76% who aren't committing suicide and having suicidal thoughts due to victimization. 
Not having an explanation for something simply means we don't have an explanation. The problem is that you do have another explanation - mental illness, hence my point about argument from ignorance and the burden of proof.

I get that you posted this point in response to my point about about victimization being the explanation, but that was just an example of me offering an alternative, not an attempt to cite a full study of the underlying issues. You're the one trying to accomplish that.

You're attempting to contest something that isn't contestable.
You didn't hear a word I said, or maybe are just pretending you didn't. 76% respondents said what exactly? Do you know? No, because all you're doing is relying on the characterization of what they said by the people who actually talked to them.

Like I pointed out earlier, numbers are not always that simple. In one Harvard survey amongst self professed politically engaged individuals, 56% of respondents approved of the Affordable Care Act. Only 33% approved of Obamacare. How you ask a question matters.

So again, this doesn't mean we chuck the numbers out the window, but it does (or at least should) raise a red flag to those who draw conclusions from any study that contradict the conclusions of the people who conducted them.

I didn't call them the same. I argued that they were the same in some regard. That's what an analogy is.
In my previous post I went through why these two things are not the same. You responded with:

Both transgender people and schizophrenics are humans who have mental illness -- that's apples to apples.

You then went on to declare that we could treat them with dignity without pandering to their mental illness. So yes, you absolutely did just call them both mental illnesses and them declare them the same in that regard (apples to apples).

To reiterate my point, again, schizophrenia is where an individual contains multiple personalities, while trans people are just telling you that the one person you see is in fact who they are. These are not the same, not even close. 

Schizophrenics often seek help (or at least one of their personalities do), so there is an internal conflict between actions taken by the body and the desires of the person within it. That conflict needs to be resolved and the patient cannot do it by themselves.

Schizophrenics almost always do not wish to be schizophrenic, trans people do want to transition.

Whether one is harmful to others is case by case, we wouldn't treat either that way unless they showed this trait individually. I think we can leave that there since we have disagreements on this.

There is nothing about these two conditions that are analogous to each other. You can call them both mental illnesses, but calling something a mental illness is not the same as demonstrating why your characterization matters in any meaningful way.
#494
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
Schizophrenics almost always do not wish to be schizophrenic
That's a weird opinion to hold. Schizo people are notoriously difficult to convince that they need therapy.
#495
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@Greyparrot
Also, schizophrenia is characterized by delusions, hallucinations, and a disordered view of reality rather than multiple personalities (called multiple personality disorder) which has been a common misconception. The movie “A Beautiful Mind” does a brilliant job of showing the viewer what this illness does.
#496
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@cristo71
I loved that movie as well.
#497
Kaitlyn
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@Greyparrot
There are a lot of people who think CBT is a relic of the past and that ONLY pharmacology and surgical medical science has the solutions, whether it is with hormone replacement or with the surgical knife. Some also believe it's more important and necessary to fundamentally change the systemic framework of a society than engage in the archaic practice of CBT in EVERY case.
Yes, all of that is a massive problem.

There are certainly instances wherein medication or surgery are the best options, but if transgenderism is a mental illness (I think it is), then you're genuinely harming a mentally ill person by allowing their mental illness to dictate serious, irreversible surgeries performed on them. CBT should always be attempted because it's extremely non-intrusive and pretty reversible. I remember reading that roughly 80% of 'transgender' teens simply grow out of it before they reach adulthood. Giving children the ability to allow irreversible surgery on something they might not be sure of is frankly child abuse.

I made a post earlier to Double_R showing how even post surgery, transgender people (living in San Fran -- super Progressive place) still had elevated suicide rates well above the population's The transgenderism debate (debateart.com) . These surgeries don't fix the underlying issue, elsewise transgender people wouldn't be killing themselves at such high rates.

And yes. The whole restructuring of society to accommodate something that people really don't know much about and cannot defend, is pretty wild. I'd respect people far more if they said they didn't know much about transgenderism and didn't have a stance on it, rather assuming that everyone who criticizes transgenderism is transphobic.

Fortunately we have seen a microcosm of such thinking with the recent "defund the police" movements and a societal shift away from behavior correctional facilities. Over the past few years, we have witnessed a growing movement advocating for the defunding of police departments and a shift away from traditional behavior correctional facilities. This has been fueled by concerns over police brutality, racial profiling, and the disproportionate incarceration of minorities. Lots of people believe that traditional law enforcement and correctional institutions are not effective in addressing the root causes of crime, and that a more "modern" approach that addresses social and economic factors is needed. I really think it is important to recognize that CBT will always play an important role in maintaining public safety and providing rehabilitation for offenders. Ultimately, the key to addressing these issues will be to find a balance between traditional law enforcement and correctional institutions and more progressive approaches that address underlying social and economic factors.
This is getting pretty off topic but I agree with everything you said here.

Trying to change  society to accommodate aberrant behavior in EVERY case isn't sustainable. If you are interested, you should look into the recent (short lived) formation of CHAZ/CHOP as an example of a society that went full steam in that direction.
I remember that happening. That was a complete disaster and a brilliant case-in-point as to why police are needed.

#498
Kaitlyn
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@Double_R
So, we do need another explanation for the 76% who aren't committing suicide and having suicidal thoughts due to victimization. 
Not having an explanation for something simply means we don't have an explanation. The problem is that you do have another explanation - mental illness, hence my point about argument from ignorance and the burden of proof.

I get that you posted this point in response to my point about about victimization being the explanation, but that was just an example of me offering an alternative, not an attempt to cite a full study of the underlying issues. You're the one trying to accomplish that.
Yes, I do have another explanation: mental illness, but I address that *after* I use this study to address your original claim (that societal hostility is the reason why transgender suicides are so high). So, this 76% shows your "alternative" isn't correct.  I don't use this 76% figure to affirm my positive case of transgenderism being a mental illness.

You're attempting to contest something that isn't contestable.
You didn't hear a word I said, or maybe are just pretending you didn't. 76% respondents said what exactly? Do you know? No, because all you're doing is relying on the characterization of what they said by the people who actually talked to them.

Like I pointed out earlier, numbers are not always that simple. In one Harvard survey amongst self professed politically engaged individuals, 56% of respondents approved of the Affordable Care Act. Only 33% approved of Obamacare. How you ask a question matters.

So again, this doesn't mean we chuck the numbers out the window, but it does (or at least should) raise a red flag to those who draw conclusions from any study that contradict the conclusions of the people who conducted them.
Again, the 76% figure is in response to your "alternative" as to why transgender suicides are so high. Yes, from that figure alone, we don't know why transgender people are killing themselves at such elevated rates. Later in my post, I start to give other, affirmative arguments that attempt to show transgenderism being a mental illness (so as to explain why transgender people have such an elevated risk of suicide).

Again, 24% isn't a "key issue" for most transgender people because 24% isn't a majority. That's why even when the authors say "key issue", this particular issue only affects 24% of transgender people. Perhaps the authors meant something else when they wrote "key issue", but it's certainly not an issue that affects the majority of transgender people. 

I didn't call them the same. I argued that they were the same in some regard. That's what an analogy is.
In my previous post I went through why these two things are not the same. You responded with:

Both transgender people and schizophrenics are humans who have mental illness -- that's apples to apples.

You then went on to declare that we could treat them with dignity without pandering to their mental illness. So yes, you absolutely did just call them both mental illnesses and them declare them the same in that regard (apples to apples).
When people use analogies, they never use things that are the same. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a point in an analogy.

Are transgender people and schizophrenics precisely the same? No. Do they have shared traits that we analogize? Yes.

To reiterate my point, again, schizophrenia is where an individual contains multiple personalities, while trans people are just telling you that the one person you see is in fact who they are. These are not the same, not even close. 
I consider both of these to be mental illnesses. I make the argument for it elsewhere (under the last two subheadings, not including the conclusions: The transgenderism debate (debateart.com) ).

There is nothing about these two conditions that are analogous to each other. You can call them both mental illnesses, but calling something a mental illness is not the same as demonstrating why your characterization matters in any meaningful way.
I have EXTENSIVESLY shown how the characterization is meaningful: elevated suicide rates, more likely to bully other people, 40% incarceration rate, erratic behavior, violent behavior, highest intolerance of speech, far more likely to have other mental illnesses, and highly elevated rates of anti-social personality disorder The transgenderism debate (debateart.com) .

You have ZERO explanation for these extremely elevated rates of detrimental outcomes. You continue to blindly stick your head in the sand to all of this as you say, 'they're just telling you who they are'. You need to address these facts before you defend transgenderism as legitimate.
#499
Double_R
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@Kaitlyn
So, this 76% shows your "alternative" isn't correct.
No, it doesn't. You continue to pretend that one single explanation must account for the entire variance, otherwise we can chuck it away. That's nonsense. Cisgender people commit suicide too, so we're talking about accounting for the difference between two, and there are likely a multitude of factors why. Even if mental illness is part of it, that still wouldn't explain all of it. These aren't all or nothing propositions.

Also, I've been allowing you to mischaracterize what I said for a while now so let's finally take a moment to address it; I never claimed "victimization" was the cause, I said trans people are the most ostracized in our society (whether they are actually the most ostracized - the part you decided to focus on - is irrelevant to my point).

Being ostracized comes in many different forms, not just "victimization" (however they are even defining it). It also means being made fun of, being talked about, being targeted, etc. This thread alone is just another example of it. Imagine living in a society where half go so far to not accept you for who you are that they cite studies where they don't even agree with is authors but use its data anyway to argue that you're mentally ill. Imagine your own family and especially your parents don't accept you for who you are to the point where they disown you. Shit, under those circumstances I might kill myself too or at the very least act out, so I guess I'm mentally ill as well.

Show me where your studies account for all of this.

When people use analogies, they never use things that are the same. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a point in an analogy.
I'm not refuting your argument on the basis that it doesn't line up perfectly, I'm refuting it on the basis that not one element of these two "conditions" are analogous to each other.

If you want to argue that "transgenderism" is a mental illness on the basis that it leads to increased suicides, bullying, etc. that's fine. We can agree or disagree on those merits but comparing any of this to schizophrenia is deeply flawed. We don't treat schizophrenics the way we do because someone called their condition a mental illness, we treat them the way we do because that's what their condition demands. Stick to arguing the condition, not the classification.

You have ZERO explanation for these extremely elevated rates of detrimental outcomes.
Complete nonsense. I've given you explanations that are quite frankly common sense, you reject them outright because I haven't produced a study showing them to you.

So since common sense is apparently invalid in this conversation let me provide the exact same thing I've been saying in the form of a study:

The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

Now you can go on and study the various factors at play here and stop pretending I've produced nothing.
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@Double_R
So, this 76% shows your "alternative" isn't correct.
No, it doesn't. You continue to pretend that one single explanation must account for the entire variance, otherwise we can chuck it away. That's nonsense. 
You haven't offered us any other "alternative" explanation. This is your argument that you're criticizing as nonsense lol.

Cisgender people commit suicide too, so we're talking about accounting for the difference between two, and there are likely a multitude of factors why. Even if mental illness is part of it, that still wouldn't explain all of it. These aren't all or nothing propositions.
Yes, this is all fine.

Also, I've been allowing you to mischaracterize what I said for a while now so let's finally take a moment to address it; I never claimed "victimization" was the cause, I said trans people are the most ostracized in our society (whether they are actually the most ostracized - the part you decided to focus on - is irrelevant to my point).
You have nothing to show that they are the "most ostracized". It's not integral to the argument you're making here, but just shows that you don't have anything to back the claim you're making.

Again, the only "alternative" explanation you offered was "victimization".

Being ostracized comes in many different forms, not just "victimization" (however they are even defining it). It also means being made fun of, being talked about, being targeted, etc. This thread alone is just another example of it. Imagine living in a society where half go so far to not accept you for who you are that they cite studies where they don't even agree with is authors but use its data anyway to argue that you're mentally ill. Imagine your own family and especially your parents don't accept you for who you are to the point where they disown you. Shit, under those circumstances I might kill myself too or at the very least act out, so I guess I'm mentally ill as well.

Show me where your studies account for all of this.
We don't have to "imagine" anything about transgender people on this point. The studies account for this by asking transgender people to self-report. Unless you think transgender people are self-reporting they didn't attempt suicide when they actually did, or that they didn't have suicidal thoughts when they actually did (wtf??), the studies are accounting for these different forms of victimizations. Most are not killing themselves because of victimization:

Hostile society/individuals do not cause transgender people to kill themselves en masse

(1) I think we can already agree that transgender suicide is higher than the general population. You claim it's due to a hostile society/Individuals.
(2) Transgender people who self-report not experiencing discrimination still have these elevated risks of suicide Suicidality-Transgender-Sep-2019.pdf (ucla.edu)
(3) Suicidal transgender people also typically don't cite bullying as a reason for their attempts at suicide A systematic review and meta-analysis of victimisation and mental health prevalence among LGBTQ+ young people with experiences of self-harm and suicide | PLOS ONE 
(C) I can cite more data but this should be sufficient to make the conclusion that discrimination doesn't cause transgender people to kill themselves, therefore needing another explanation

When people use analogies, they never use things that are the same. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a point in an analogy.
I'm not refuting your argument on the basis that it doesn't line up perfectly, I'm refuting it on the basis that not one element of these two "conditions" are analogous to each other.

If you want to argue that "transgenderism" is a mental illness on the basis that it leads to increased suicides, bullying, etc. that's fine. We can agree or disagree on those merits but comparing any of this to schizophrenia is deeply flawed. We don't treat schizophrenics the way we do because someone called their condition a mental illness, we treat them the way we do because that's what their condition demands. Stick to arguing the condition, not the classification.
Thinking you're the opposite biological sex is the "condition". The "condition" of being transgender "demands" that we don't give into their mentally ill requests to transition into the opposite biological sex. This word game isn't fooling anyone.

You have ZERO explanation for these extremely elevated rates of detrimental outcomes.
Complete nonsense. I've given you explanations that are quite frankly common sense, you reject them outright because I haven't produced a study showing them to you.
Common sense is a tautology (It's right because it's common sense; it's common sense because it's right).

You've made claims 'transgender people are the most ostracized'. How did you determine that? Common sense? Lol.

Do I really need to explain to you why anecdotal evidence and "common sense" doesn't cut it compared to studies?

So since common sense is apparently invalid in this conversation let me provide the exact same thing I've been saying in the form of a study:

The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.

Now you can go on and study the various factors at play here and stop pretending I've produced nothing.
You finally posted a study lol. Only took you like 20 posts.

Your study (which is a meta-analysis) actually agrees with me in saying that coming out as trans and/or undergoing trans surgery doesn't reduce the suicide rates: "The prevalence of suicide remains high among transgender persons irrespective of disclosing their transgender status to others and undergoing sex reassignment surgery." So, the left-wing solutions to transgenderism, at least in those regards, doesn't help the transgender condition in any significant way.

There is certainly a correlation between transgender's victimization and suicide rates, but it's just not that high. The issue with your study is that my studies show that (1) trans people who do not report victimization still have highly elevated suicide rates Suicidality-Transgender-Sep-2019.pdf (ucla.edu), and (2) trans people who have suicidal thoughts/commit suicide are mostly not reporting victimization as a reason A systematic review and meta-analysis of victimisation and mental health prevalence among LGBTQ+ young people with experiences of self-harm and suicide | PLOS ONE

As to the causality of victimization and suicide related activities, if you apply a twin study set-up to control for family environment and genes (and also control for psychopathology that pre-existed the bullying), a one standard deviation increase in bullying only predicts a 25% increase in the odds of attempting suicide. Therefore, only 37% of the noted association between bullying and suicide related activities is plausibly causal A Co-Twin Control Study of the Association Between Bullying Victimization and Self-Harm and Suicide Attempt in Adolescence (gwern.net) 

So, your metanalysis can use big phrases like "major risk factors", but when we actually crunch the numbers, we see that victimization isn't nearly as causal as you think it is, nor is it as correlate as you think it is, and thus leaves a gaping hole in explanation as to why transgender suicide rates are so high.
#501
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You finally posted a study lol. Only took you like 20 posts.
Greatest Hits by Kaitlin!

#502
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@Kaitlyn
It's not integral to the argument you're making here, but just shows that you don't have anything to back the claim you're making.
It’s not my claim we’re discussing here, it’s yours. I never came on here claiming transgender people are not mentally ill, I am refuting your claim that they are as insufficient. You need to understand how the burden of proof works.

(2) Transgender people who self-report not experiencing discrimination still have these elevated risks of suicide Suicidality-Transgender-Sep-2019.pdf (ucla.edu)
(3) Suicidal transgender people also typically don't cite bullying as a reason for their attempts at suicide
Once again, you’re searching for the one drop that’s going to fill up the whole bucket, then arguing that if none of them accomplished it it’s proof there’s no water.

No one thing is going to account for the entire gap between trans and cisgender suicide rates so your whole framing on this is way off. You also disregard the basic fact that one does not need to personally experience something in order to be impacted by it. Would you be afraid of getting mugged if you found yourself in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time? Most people would, you don’t have to have ever been mugged to feel that way.

If you want to prove transgenderism is a mental illness you need certain controls in place to ensure your results are definitive. None of your studies have done this because that’s not even the topic they are studying. This is why nearly every single one you’ve cited ends with a disclaimer saying “more research is needed”.

Do I really need to explain to you why anecdotal evidence and "common sense" doesn't cut it compared to studies?
No, you need to explain how studies that aren’t studying the topic you’re asserting, who don’t agree with your conclusions, and who haven’t ruled out all alternative explanations proves your explanation to be the correct one.

So, the left-wing solutions to transgenderism, at least in those regards, doesn't help the transgender condition in any significant way.
And yet you aren’t pretending to have nor are even seeking a solution to this problem, so your attack on “left wing solutions” (an absurd term here) rings quite hollow, especially as you sit here arguing these people are mentally ill and their own decisions regarding their own identity should be disregarded, because that’s really going to help people recover from suicidal thoughts…
#503
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@Double_R
It's not integral to the argument you're making here, but just shows that you don't have anything to back the claim you're making.
It’s not my claim we’re discussing here, it’s yours. I never came on here claiming transgender people are not mentally ill, I am refuting your claim that they are as insufficient. You need to understand how the burden of proof works.
We discussed as to why suicide rates for transgender people were so high, you gave the alternative explanation of "victimization". You didn't give any data/evidence/studies to back this claim. Thus, also in this instance, you had a positive claim that required you to fulfill A burden of proof. 

We're both making positive cases that have burden of proof. I'm arguing that transgenderism is a mental illness. You're arguing that we should respect their gender identity. You need to fulfill your BoP as much as I do.

(2) Transgender people who self-report not experiencing discrimination still have these elevated risks of suicide Suicidality-Transgender-Sep-2019.pdf (ucla.edu)
(3) Suicidal transgender people also typically don't cite bullying as a reason for their attempts at suicide
Once again, you’re searching for the one drop that’s going to fill up the whole bucket, then arguing that if none of them accomplished it it’s proof there’s no water.
No. This line of argument was made purely to negate your case that victimization was the explanation for why transgender suicides rates are so high. I'm fulfilling my burden of proof with other arguments. I'm not arguing that because your victimization explanation doesn't explain all transgender suicides, therefore we must think transgender are mentally ill.

No one thing is going to account for the entire gap between trans and cisgender suicide rates.
Yes.

If you want to prove transgenderism is a mental illness you need certain controls in place to ensure your results are definitive. None of your studies have done this because that’s not even the topic they are studying. This is why nearly every single one you’ve cited ends with a disclaimer saying “more research is needed”.
The combination of my studies results in transgenderism heavily correlating with mental illness, and also showing that "alternative" explanations don't come close to fully explaining the super high transgender suicide rates. It's the dozen-odd studies combined that make the case, not individual studies analyzed in isolation.

Do I really need to explain to you why anecdotal evidence and "common sense" doesn't cut it compared to studies?
No, you need to explain how studies that aren’t studying the topic you’re asserting, who don’t agree with your conclusions, and who haven’t ruled out all alternative explanations proves your explanation to be the correct one.
I'm using the studies' data to piece together a case for transgenderism being a mental illness. Yes, not all the studies will say "transgenderism is a mental illness". That's why I am having to cite multiple studies. 

I've already explained to you why the one study you quoted said what it said. The numbers from the can simply be looked at and we can draw numerical conclusions from that. We don't need qualitative analysis. 

You haven't given any explanation besides "victimization". I have shown that victimization doesn't come close being a sufficient explanation. You talk of there being "alternative" explanations but you haven't listed any others. Meanwhile, I've demonstrated multiple strong correlates for suggesting that transgenderism is a mental illness. 

So, the left-wing solutions to transgenderism, at least in those regards, doesn't help the transgender condition in any significant way.
And yet you aren’t pretending to have nor are even seeking a solution to this problem, so your attack on “left wing solutions” (an absurd term here) rings quite hollow, especially as you sit here arguing these people are mentally ill and their own decisions regarding their own identity should be disregarded, because that’s really going to help people recover from suicidal thoughts…
My claim of "transgenderism is a mental illness' doesn't require a "solution" in order to be correct. 

You keep asserting that we should respect "their own identity", yet you don't do anything to show us why. Again, I'm given us reasons why we shouldn't respect their gender identity (because it's the product of a mental illness).
#504
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We're both making positive cases that have burden of proof. I'm arguing that transgenderism is a mental illness.
Do you think being gay is a mental illness?

#505
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We're both making positive cases that have burden of proof. I'm arguing that transgenderism is a mental illness.
Do you think being gay is a mental illness?
I don't currently know. I haven't done as much research on it. 
#506
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I don't currently know. I haven't done as much research on it. 
That’s like saying you don’t know if smoking cigarettes is bad for your health because you haven’t done much research on it.

#507
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I don't currently know. I haven't done as much research on it. 
That’s like saying you don’t know if smoking cigarettes is bad for your health because you haven’t done much research on it.
So, you think homosexuality is obviously a mental illness?

I don't see why it's obvious.

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@Kaitlyn
We discussed as to why suicide rates for transgender people were so high, you gave the alternative explanation of "victimization". You didn't give any data/evidence/studies to back this claim
That’s because the claim came from your own studies. You know this, I even quoted the passage.

We're both making positive cases that have burden of proof. I'm arguing that transgenderism is a mental illness. You're arguing that we should respect their gender identity
Agreed, and this is the whole problem here. What I’m arguing for is a matter of common sense and basic human decency, so asking me to provide studies to prove my point is absurd. I can’t “prove” to you that people benefit from compassion. If you haven’t figured that out yet you have very serious issues and there’s really nothing left for me to argue about you with on that nor would I really care to.

You on the other hand, are arguing for a medical classification for something the medical community doesn’t accept should be classified as you believe. That comes with a very steep burden, so putting yourself on some high horse because you provided studies and I didn’t is ridiculous.

It's the dozen-odd studies combined that make the case, not individual studies analyzed in isolation.
100 invalid arguments doesn’t add up to one valid point.

The numbers from the can simply be looked at and we can draw numerical conclusions from that.
Numerical data is only as useful as the controls and methods used to obtain it. Once again, not one of your studies were even set up to explore the question of whether transgenderism is a mental illness, so no controls were put in place capture any data that would confirm or deny that hypothesis.
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@Double_R
We discussed as to why suicide rates for transgender people were so high, you gave the alternative explanation of "victimization". You didn't give any data/evidence/studies to back this claim
That’s because the claim came from your own studies. You know this, I even quoted the passage.
You're only referencing one of my studies, not multiple.

My study doesn't conclude that victimization is the reason transgender people commit suicide/have suicidal thoughts. My study shows that it's a minority of transgender people who are affected by victimization. 

You just haven't proven your claim.

We're both making positive cases that have burden of proof. I'm arguing that transgenderism is a mental illness. You're arguing that we should respect their gender identity
Agreed, and this is the whole problem here. What I’m arguing for is a matter of common sense and basic human decency, so asking me to provide studies to prove my point is absurd. I can’t “prove” to you that people benefit from compassion. If you haven’t figured that out yet you have very serious issues and there’s really nothing left for me to argue about you with on that nor would I really care to.

You on the other hand, are arguing for a medical classification for something the medical community doesn’t accept should be classified as you believe. That comes with a very steep burden, so putting yourself on some high horse because you provided studies and I didn’t is ridiculous.
Firstly, "common sense" is a tautology that I've already called out in this discussion. It's a completely invalid form of proof because it begs the question. "Basic human decency" is also a tautology because we are arguing as to what should be considered basic human decency -- you can't insert your conclusion as a premise for your argument as well.

Secondly, you need to give reasons as to why we should respect their gender identity. That's the burden of proof you need to fulfil, elsewise you haven't proven there are good reasons to respect their gender identity. Meanwhile, I'm arguing that giving into people's mental disorders leads to bad outcomes. I'm actively arguing that it's not a good idea to "respect their gender identity" because it leads to bad outcomes.

Thirdly, you haven't shown any medical consensus on this at all, and even if you did, that wouldn't make the argument correct. Veracity of arguments comes independent of the authorities claiming it is correct. Otherwise, you are appealing to authority which is a logical fallacy.

It's the dozen-odd studies combined that make the case, not individual studies analyzed in isolation.
100 invalid arguments doesn’t add up to one valid point.
You haven't shown my arguments are invalid at all.

The numbers from the can simply be looked at and we can draw numerical conclusions from that.
Numerical data is only as useful as the controls and methods used to obtain it. Once again, not one of your studies were even set up to explore the question of whether transgenderism is a mental illness, so no controls were put in place capture any data that would confirm or deny that hypothesis.
It's a super simple observation and conclusion:

Does roughly a quarter = 100% or a majority?

No, it does not.

Your overcomplication is nonsense.
#510
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you are appealing to authority which is a logical fallacy.
No genius, appeal to authority is only a logical fallacy when one uses an expert of dubious credentials. Which is something you would do.

When conservatives use a scientist’s opinion to refute climate change but the scientist they use isn’t a climate scientist then they are committing an appeal to authority logical fallacy. Get it? You’ve been mansplained.